Application rather than the tool.

[polmaise]

Not to de-rail another thread which has nothing to do with the topic .
The quote however came from it ,and I had to think about it .
Sorry for using Your quote as an example "Timewise " .Nothing personal ,just an example .

"BUT, I highly, again, recommend you get a pinch collar! They will not harm the pup, but the slip lead could! Most trainers do not put slip leads on untrained dogs. Once your dog is trained it is not a big deal, but if your dog 'breaks' to chase a cat or whatever and you have him on that lead, he could get hurt.... "

I have never in 40 years had to use a pinch Collar on a pup of any breed . I am Not against the use and application of Pinch collars and have used them with some Dogs who have been here for behavioural training . I absolutely agree that when used correctly and fitted correctly and correctly used with timing they are a tool that can and will work in the right hands.

The Slip lead would be the same ?...Put it on the right way and used correctly with timing and you get the result/Action .
Much the same with e-collar ,or any other tool ...in the wrong hands with the wrong operator ,can be detrimental for the dog in training .
...
Even this side of the pond .Many dont know how to teach a dog to walk at heel without a tether of some sorts , then when the dog is off "tool" ...the wheels fall off ..when a Cat or something else is in the equation .

[Sharon]

Well said!

[CDN_Cocker]

Good post polmaise

[Trekmoor]

Like Robert (Polmaise) I have never had to use a pinch collar but I am not anti their use. I normally train pups heelwork using a slip lead and I do it by waking in small sized "squares" of about 12 feet by 12 feet. I only do right angled turns which means I always turn away from the pup …..at least to begin with .

In more recent years my own physical problems made it painful for me to use a lead so I dispensed with it completely and continued to train in small squares praising the pup when it was in the correct position and doing an immediate right angled turn when the pup went "wrong." It worked very well with a springer and then with a lab and both of those dogs were taken to driven shoots at about 9 months of age and gave me no problems.

I don't think this would work with a pup of more than a few months old..... very young pups like to keep with you, older ones are a bit too adventurous. With the springer pup I let him know I had a tennis ball with and I let him see it from time to time as I trained him heelwork. He is a bit of a tennis ball "freak." The lab pup was even easier.... I just let her know I had a couple of biscuits in my pocket !

Whether it is a pinch collar being used or a slip lead or a ball or a biscuit does not really matter , they are all just tools and if used with good timing they can all work.

Bill T.

[polmaise]

Here in Lies Application .
Always with the end goal in sight. (Whatever that may be for each individual and or dog) .
As an example of the Tool "In this case so far in discussion" .Lead or heel work on the move!
Using any lure ,such as a ball or treat for example would be perfectly creating the end goal if Obedience style heel work was what the handler wanted to achieve ,as the focus of the activity (in training) would be in the handler ,thus achieving the action by application.
For a Gun Dog , Retriever as an example ,I would not want the dog to be focused on me at heel on the move . I would want it by my side and looking forward .
When handling is required remotely ,I would want it focused on me . Without semantics intended . You reap what you sow .
The Tool used can be used incorrectly for the purpose intended ,but gain the desired effect for that moment in training . A lure is just what it is .
Achievement of a dog not pulling on the lead for example is gained , the caveat can be a crutch when we want the retriever to be looking and scanning the skies in front to see the target ,when we are on the hoof .
The Tool done the job at hand .
Depends how you apply it for your own end goal objective . Neither way is Right or wrong in application.
.....

[averageguy]

I have used slip collars, prong collars, Wonder Lead, ecollars and clicker/marker methods so far. Have also staked a pup out on a chain gang in the shade to learn that pulling is futile. I find it best to have more than one approach as some of those approaches seemed to work better than others on different dogs.

I used clicker/marker/treats to teach heel to my current dog starting around 3 months. His focus was on me and that was what I wanted at that stage of his training. I followed that up with a Wonder Lead and then an ecollar to further train and proof the behavior.

My practical needs for heeling are highly varied. Sometimes it is a city setting e.g. a trip to the vet, a park to air, a motel parking lot, lobby and hallways. That is a great time for the dog's focus to be on me. Other times we are in the field approaching my truck near a road - another situation where having the dog's focus on me is a good thing. Another is heeling in the pitch dark to a place where I intend to setup a blind and decoys for a dove or waterfowl hunt - no need for the dog to focus on anything but me in that situation either.

I also train my dogs to mark off the gun when I am shooting and to gunfire at a distance when working on long distance marks. They have immediately adapted to those situations where they are at heel beside me but need to focus on marking falling birds at a distance. Utterly simple to expose the dog to those situations and having done it once they adapt easily.

[polmaise]

Like everything in life ,anyone can only relate to their life and lifestyle for them (with Gun Dogs) .
Whenever a resume is typed out ,I kinda switch off,unless I was hiring the person,even then I would want to know what the plan is for My dog ,not theirs .
......
Trained gun dogs in the city is a walk in the public park . Training Gun dogs In the park is a different "Kettle of Fish"

Heel with a pack in a park.jpg

[averageguy]

No resume typed out and sorry you are so anxious to pick at my every post that you missed the obvious Polmaise. Which is; multiple methods of teaching Heel work, but what might be best for one dog might not be best for another. Which is why I have used several.

Nor is a dog completely focused on the handler or the field always for the best. It also varies as my examples illustrate.

[Sharon]

Like everything in life ,anyone can only relate to their life and lifestyle for them (with Gun Dogs) .
Whenever a resume is typed out ,I kinda switch off,unless I was hiring the person,even then I would want to know what the plan is for My dog ,not theirs .
......
Trained gun dogs in the city is a walk in the public park . Training Gun dogs In the park is a different "Kettle of Fish"
Heel with a pack in a park.jpg

re: picture
I still say you have cookies in your pocket.

[polmaise]

Sharon ,You spotted the Primula cheese

[JONOV]

If you're late to the party in laying the foundations for heel work, then a pinch collar can be invaluable. I didn't have to use it for my current dog, and growing up it wasn't needed for Mom to teach our dogs we had as pups to walk nicely. But, when we you have an adult dog with zero leash manners, it can be the difference in a stress free lesson and a game of tug of war, or being pulled into the mud, etc...

[polmaise]

A perfect hold and delivery ,with perfect presentation ,then again,Cockers do all the right things in a training program,with their own unique interpretations.

FB_IMG_1551814690569.jpg

[DonF]

Thing wrong with a slip collar is they are to easily abused and most people using them have no clue there is a right way to put them on. I took obedience lesson's from a lady in Montana years ago that had the best obedience dog's I've ever seen. The opening lesson was the learn how to put the chain on properly. With your dog sitting next to you, the ring the chain goes through come's up under the dog's neck. That way what your gonna notice is if you pull up on the leash the chain tightens. When you let up on it the ring the chain is through pulls the chain wide open. Bring that same ring over the top of the neck and the chain tightens when pulled on but does not open when pressure is let up. A proper length is also necessary. If the chain is to short, pressure doesn't go away. If it's to long you'd be slapping your dog in the side of the head applying the pressure. Imagine what happens when the chain it to long and on backward's. Pressure send's the correction relieving the pressure is an alright indicator to the dog. Seldom have to pressure the dog, it has a way of doing that to itself. I was also taught to keep the dog's attention while heeling. Right turn's and left turns were used and U turns. Quite a bit more to it that it seem's to watch it. I think the plus with the pinch collar is they are actually harder to abuse, especially with the point's flattened on the studs! Don't flatten those studs and the point's dig in. flatten then and the point's are suppose to pinch.

People love the wonder lead, I've never used one. Seem's to me the whole secret to it is the way it apply's pressure and the dog . I did watch K9 use one on an untrained dog for a bit at a trial and it did seem to work well and she let the dog apply pressure, not her. Guess I never told her. Hey K9, that was a nice show! I still stick with chain slip collar for obedience though as it's what I know. Funny, I also still do whoa work with the original Delmar Smith whoa post method. It's what I know. I have never found a reason to change a method of anything it it worked fine the way it was.

[Sharon]

A perfect hold and delivery ,with perfect presentation ,then again,Cockers do all the right things in a training program,with their own unique interpretations. FB_IMG_1551814690569.jpg

LOL I always wondered if you were a bit strange - you know I'm kidding. Love that picture , but " I'm sorry but you are out of the competition. Pick your dog up please. "

[polmaise]

Yea,but When training/building a gundog,you have to start somewhere
Why not with all the parts in place,then we can sort out the order ,..Then collect any Ribbons .

[DonF]

There are a good number of pro, past and present, trainer's that have written book's on training bird dogs. Which one is right?

[ON Honker Hunter]

"Even this side of the pond .Many dont know how to teach a dog to walk at heel without a tether of some sorts , then when the dog is off "tool" ...the wheels fall off ..when a Cat or something else is in the equation ."

I couldn't agree more. I regularly use "pinch" collars when walking my dogs (I prefer to call them compression collars) because the city insists on them being on leash. They need to walk ahead of me on sidewalk when on leash, otherwise we're tripping/stepping on each other. There is a natural inclination to push the envelope when on leash out front and I just get tired of being pulled on. Compression collar minimizes that ... a lot! It is most preferable for me to walk them at heel just behind me without leash or compression collar ... because that's the way things are when we are in the field. Often late at night I will walk the three of them with only my guiding stick (long half inch thick length of dowelling). They can get tapped with the stick if they get ahead ... or too far behind. But they're NEVER whacked with it. Usually all I have to do is tap it on the ground to get the desired result if someone is lagging behind to sniff a tree, etc. Cats, squirrels, pigeons, no matter. "Leave it ALONE!" and they do. My dogs are actually more easy to manage without collars and leash than they are with them ... but unfortunately not everyone else in the city makes the same effort to work with their dogs so I have to operate within the regs. And I'll tell you, if I pull that stick out of the closet or jingle a compression collar hanging on the porch, all three dogs go absolutely ape. The two Labs will almost jump into their collars! Hard to believe they cause them any significant pain.

[polmaise]

There are a good number of pro, past and present, trainer's that have written book's on training bird dogs. Which one is right?

All of them! You just have to buy it.