"Cover Dog" Trial

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"Cover Dog" Trial

Post by Wagonmaster » Sun Aug 28, 2005 6:45 am

Cover dog trials are a terrific test of a dog's skill on wild birds. Since there has been so much misinformation on them, I thought it would be worthwhile to explain how they operate.

First and foremost, cover dog trials are run in the woods, on wild birds. This sets them apart from most other trials or tests. They require a very high quality finished pointing dog.

As with most trials, dogs are braced in pairs of two. The bracing is by random drawing. The drawing is worth mentioning, because most cover trials are held over multiple, continuous courses. That is, one brace will start and run for the stake limit (half hour or hour for broke dogs). Those dogs are then put up, a new set is brought in by the dog wagon, and the course continues through the woods, not repeating over the old course. Usually there is enough room to run at least three continuous courses, and often more like six. The reason for the continuous courses is the wild birds. Running the course pushes the birds around, and there are no "planted" birds to add, so the next course needs to be run on fresh ground to make sure all the participants have a fair opportunity to find birds.

Since not every piece of woods is the same exact quality of habitat as every other piece of woods, there is a little "luck of the draw" involved in the drawing. You hope you will get the course that has the best habitat. Particular courses are known to hold birds, on other courses they can be a little harder to find. That is, of course, the nature of true hunting. When you hunt, not every piece of woods has had exactly five birds put on it in the last half hour; you have to find what is there. Cover dog trials are the same.

Live bird trials require a very high quality dog, arguably the most skilled of all the pointing dogs. The simple reason is the birds. Ruffed grouse, in particular, are very difficult birds for a pointing dog to handle. Generally, they will accept no pressure whatsoever from the dog. So a dog has to have a very good nose and must scent and stand the bird from a long ways off. While you will see points where the dog has slammed in on top of the bird, and is only say ten yards off, typical cover dog points are established thirty or more yards from the bird.

Adult cover dogs must be fully broke, STW&S. This is also an extremely challenging task for cover dogs, particularly with grouse, since they will commonly stand up and walk around in front of the dog, or run off, and sometimes require very tricky relocation on the handlers command.

To win, a cover dog must have a point on a wild bird. Points on woodcock count, but in most judges minds, the dog that has at least one find on a ruffed grouse, and handles it properly, will be the king. The reason is not the size of the bird. It is that the woodcock has good manners, and will hold for a dog. The ruffed grouse will do all kinds of things to confound dog and handler.

Because of the sensitivity of grouse to any pressure from the dog, dogs that track in to a bird or lower their head, do not generally have good success. They get too interested in the track, too close to the bird, and the bird goes out. Dogs that hunt and point on air scent, with head high, will do better.

The signal feature of the cover trials, and of any wild bird trial, is that the birds are obviously wild, not stocked, and are being sought in their own environment, where they deal with fox, raccoons, hawks, and hunters on a daily basis. So they know how to avoid being found and cornered. They are subject to the same changes in conditions that face hunters; a good or bad bird crop, changing weather conditions, the birds' movement patterns through the day, and all the other things that go into hunting wild birds. Early fall trials in a year when nesting success has been good, may produce many finds. Spring trials are always a challenge, because birds are lost to hunting the prior fall and to nature during the winter, and the birds that have survived are real veterans of the woods.

Blank guns are used in grouse trials for several reasons. One is that although there are multiple courses, no one has the ground to run every single brace on a new course. And there are only so many wild birds out there. So shooting a bird would make the course unfair to the next set of handlers who will run on that course, a day or so later. Many of the trials are run (with DNR permission) out of season for the particular bird, so it would be illegal to shoot them. Finally, these are a high intensity use - very good dogs and very good hunters - repeatedly running the courses over a period of years, so good management of the bird populations dictates that birds should not be shot, in order to maintain a good population for the next trial, and for the hunters who will hunt the grounds in the fall and for the sake of the birds themselves.

There are not alot of dogs that can hack it at wild bird trials. It takes a very good dog with a very good nose and very good manners. Since wild birds are hard to find, and scarce in some years, it takes a dog that can run at ranges of 100-300 yards in the woods, make point way out there, and hold point until the handler can locate the dog. The range is not dictated by some arbitrary rule that dogs should run at that range, in cover bird trials it is dictated by the need, and the drive in the dog, to go wherever necessary to make that all important find. All this, and come home to the handler at the end of the brace.

To win, especially in the high level stakes such as the Grand National, cover dogs have to be very stylish on point and classy looking when running.

Lastly, cover dog trials are foot handled trials. Sometimes the judges use horses, to improve their view and because walking grouse woods for eight straight hours can take its toll. But the handlers and the gallery are on the ground, where they would be if they were hunting grouse.

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Post by gunner » Sun Aug 28, 2005 9:19 am

John,
Thanks for the posting and putting the cover dog venue in the light that it deserves.
Trully fine, well trained, experienced dogs, that have the stamina, endurance, brains, nose, style and speed that would make most dog folk stand up and take notice.
The best to you!

Bill

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Post by Jon » Sun Aug 28, 2005 10:28 am

versatileguy wrote:Following dogs around with a pop gun, is in no way an evaluation system of what a good gun dog is. :roll:
V guy, I've been hunting for many years but am new to the bird dog game. I've been reading and watching NAHVDA and NSTRA trials along with gathering as much info. as I can. I have a young GSP as you can see <----- by my avatar.

What do YOU consider a worthy "evaluation system" for someone looking to train a versatile gun dog ?

Seriously, I'm asking ! (If you can tell me without intending to offend someone.)

PS: I know some org. have their little clicks and this is unfortunate but you find that in everything from my experience and have to work around it if you want to play. More times than not I just walk away rather then have someone look down their nose at the new guy if I feel that is a org. prob. and not just a bad apple but that would be up to the individual. My experience with the NAHVDA group in my area was pretty good, everybody welcomed me to join them and answer any questions etc. My experience with one of the NSTRA groups was a little different because one person having a bad day decided to show his ignorance. I don't hold that against the org. but did notice the energy was not as friendly in my opinion. Maybe this is because you compete against the other guy but NAHVDA your dog is being graded on his ability from what I was told. I myself will still try to do both, but there is a reason people say it only takes one bad apple to ruin it for everybody and I would rather just write that one person off as having a bad day rather than base my opinion on the entire org. over one or two bad experiences / people. FWIW

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Post by Jon » Sun Aug 28, 2005 10:46 am

I just replied to a post from V guy and then when my post reached the forum I see V guy post is gone :?:

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Post by llewgor » Sun Aug 28, 2005 3:01 pm

Well written post Wagonmaster, thanks for the lesson on cover dog trials.
I've read where all trials used to be with wild birds, that would be hard to do now.
Thumbs up to those who can and do.
Billy
"Change the way you look at things, and the things you look at change"

http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/3genview.php?id=147

http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/3genview.php?id=152

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Post by pear » Sun Aug 28, 2005 3:39 pm

Great post Wagon....., these are the kind of posts people can learn from.................."pear"
"When I was a kid, I used to pray every night for a new "puppy". Then I realized that the Lord, in his wisdom, didn't work that way. So I just stole one and asked him to forgive me".

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Post by Wagonmaster » Sun Aug 28, 2005 4:54 pm

Billy-

Once upon a time you are right, they were all with wild birds. Well, I guess I can't really say that from first person experience, because that day was over before I got into trials, which was also awhile ago now. But it is my understanding that is the way it once was.

Bird populations have shrunk, as has available habitat. That has affected it, no doubt. But the biggest factor is finding suitable grounds in bird country. As you can see from the cover dog description, a good wild bird trial requires multiple continuous courses. In fairness to the competitors, you cannot just finish one brace and start the next one on the same course a moment later. The course needs to be rested or the wild birds will just leave. So if you consider the prairie horseback trials, and the fact that those trials are usually one hour stakes, you are talking about alot of ground. Minimum 3,500 acres (which is close to 6 square miles) and more would be better. Not many of those courses around, so for better or worse, we substitute with planted birds.

In trial/test circles, the pointer/setter people have far and away the greatest number of wild bird trials, both horseback and foot handled. The shorthair people have a few. Wild bird trials really are the best test of a dog, in my opinion, because they are held on the grounds where the birds live naturally, and because the dogs are up against wild birds who know how to evade predators.

A study was done at Ames, the location of the National Championship, a few years ago, where the coveys in an area were located, and were tagged with radio collars so they could be tracked. Everyone viewed the quail as a tight sitting well mannered bird, easy for dogs to handle. In fact the study showed that the coveys ran frequently and far on the approach of the dogs, often running as far as a quarter mile. Most embarrassing was the fact that they would usually run in a big circle, and wind up right where they started from, after the field trial party had passed. Bill (Gunner) probably remembers those statistics better than I do.

Ruffed grouse, believe it or not, are some of the worst runners. Those of us who grew up in Minnesota, Wisconsin and Michigan, probably came to know them as dumb clucks that would stand in the middle of a logging road and wait to get shot in the head with a .22, or hit with a rock. But in scarce bird years, in the spring, on windy days, or when the birds have been pressured by hunting, they run like the "bleep". I once watched a hunting party (my two brothers) work through a strip of woods on a windy day. A grouse ran ahead of them the entire half mile length of the strip, and never allowed them within a hundred yards. It never flushed from the woods and they never found it. It takes a heck of a dog to pin birds like that.

I just think those wild bird trials, whether foot handled or horseback handled, are the best test of a bird dog that there is. But that should in no way be taken as a statement that planted birds are bad, or worthless. Every trial/test format I can think of makes some use of planted birds. If it were not for planted bird trials and tests, we would probably long ago have seen the trial and test sports die off. The grounds and habitat are just not available for all the different formats to be running on wild birds. And the shoot to kill formats could not exist at all.

I do think, though, that all formats would be better off, and so would the breeds that run in them, if a way could be found to hold even just a few of their major stakes on wild birds. I am first and foremost a hunter, have been for alot of years, and for me, that would make sure that the formats produce dogs that will truly hunt, and are not just good at playing a game some humans thought up.

Planted birds are critical to training. I do not know of a dog pro alive who never uses planted birds to train dogs. I know that there are a number of pointer/setter pros who spend alot of time on wild bird grounds, up north on the prairies in the summer and down south in the winter. But even they use planted birds. We all sometimes get frustrated with planted birds - they won't fly, they fly right back at the dog, they kind of hop up and run around in front of the dog sometimes when we try to flush them, and when we plant them on field trial courses sometimes they are dieing out on the grounds because of illness or stress or inability to adapt to inhospitable weather conditions.

But we surely cannot do without them. I have had too much fun chasing dogs around in NAVHDA test, horseback trials, and other formats where planted birds are used, to be fool enough to say they aren't worth my time because they are not the real thing. Sad to say, hard to get the real thing all the time nowadays, and parts of the year it would just be unethical to do so.

So Billy, if you run that Llew of yours in cover bird trials, or if you just make a good grouse dog out of it, you certainly have my respect. "Good grouse dog" is a very high rank for a dog. I went the horseback route, but not for any lack of appreciation for those cover dogs. More power to you. And Janet, if you are still watching, same to you.

Guys like Bill and me, we'll be out on the prairies somewhere, or at least we will be day dreaming about being there.

NDBDHunter

Cover dog trials

Post by NDBDHunter » Tue Aug 30, 2005 2:22 pm

If the dogs range from 100 to 300 yards how do you find them when they go on point? Do they wear bells or beepers?

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Post by Wagonmaster » Tue Aug 30, 2005 3:09 pm

Beepers are not allowed in the grouse trials anymore as I understand it. They use bells. Those handlers have way better ears than I do.

300 yards is pretty extreme though, in the grouse woods, and did not mean to imply they spend alot of time out there. Sometimes they are just off the trail (logging road) too. Was trying to talk about the range they must be able to run to on occasion, to do the job, not the average range. Should have made that more clear.

Alot of times they have to dig pretty deep in the woods. The grouse woods we have, has sloughs and wet depressions that can be pretty big. So there might be a swamp or slough hole, and the dog will make a big move around the far edge of it. The slough hole might start right off the trail and be a couple of hundred yards wide at the widest. Often if the grass or cattails are not too high in the slough, the dog can be seen and heard off and on running the far edge. So they can get out there. I would say, though, that if you want an average, most of the time they in the 50 to 150 range.

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cover dog

Post by sdgord » Tue Aug 30, 2005 8:01 pm

John, nice explanation of cover dog trials. speaking of wild bird trials they just held a setter trial at Lower Brule. The only thing I know about it is that it was darn warm last weekend. Lower Brule has had in the past the largest wild Prarie Chicken population in South Dakota. What it takes to have the grounds available I think is money, I did note that each entry had a $25.00 fee added for tribal permits. I know the Brit guys have field trials out in Gregory county on private ranches so it can be done. A bit more luck of the draw than a planted bird trial.SDGORD

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Post by Wagonmaster » Tue Aug 30, 2005 8:09 pm

Well, we've got the cover dog trials here and I have judged a few. They are beautiful dogs to watch.

The shorthairs do have a few wild bird trials. The Sharptail, coming up this weekend in Timber Lake, SD and the Quail, which is changing grounds this year but should still be in TX. There is a Hun Ch. in WY which is stocked birds, that is, they stock early in the year months before the trial. I think they also supplement during the trial. But not a native population. The Chukar is planted as I understand it. So is the Pheasant I think. There is a thread going about this on the MS board. Up until this year there was also a Prairie Chicken Ch. which was wild birds, but it looks like they did not get it organized this year. RealGreif says the Reg. 17 is also wild birds, but I understand the weather is usually hotter than the blazes.

Luck of the draw always helps in a wild bird trial, but if you don't get the draw, having a heck of a bird dog will still turn the trick if they can reach out and find the one's that are there.
Last edited by Wagonmaster on Tue Aug 30, 2005 8:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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cover dog trials

Post by sdgord » Tue Aug 30, 2005 8:15 pm

John, yes a good dog is a definate plus in the wild bird trial. The nice thing about young chickens and sharptails is that they tend to hold better early. This should be a good year up at Timberlake also.SDGORD

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Post by Wagonmaster » Tue Aug 30, 2005 8:36 pm

sdgord-

I see from one of your other posts that Greg Dixon runs your dog(s) so I wonder if we have met somewhere along the way. I bet you know this, but he ran my Spot of a couple of years, until Spot got too big for alot of the grounds around here. Now he is running four Spot x Daisy puppies off and on. Bet you have been out to ND and seen dogs worked on those young sharptails at Greg's summer camp. Great way to raise a young bird dog.

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Post by gunner » Tue Aug 30, 2005 8:41 pm

sdgord,

just wondering if the "setter" trial you mentioned might be the open to all breeds, 90th, All-American Prairie Championship running there in South Dakota currently.
One of the most prestigious trials run in the country.
A lean breed kind of trial.

http://fieldtrialpointers.net/05AAdraw.html

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Post by Wagonmaster » Tue Aug 30, 2005 9:02 pm

Well, Bill, when it comes to wild bird trials the pointer/setter circuit wins hands down - whether you include cover dog trials as "pointer/setter" or not. I would not even want to try to count them. They run more just in summer camp locations on the prairies than all the other breeds put together run in the entire year. They have been at it way longer than us other breeds.

As for the "open to all breeds" part, well, I guess there is nothing disqualifying me from winning the heavyweight boxing championship of the world either, except I would be beaten soundly if I tried it.

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Post by TAK » Tue Aug 30, 2005 10:21 pm

John,
Very nice well written, Possitive post!

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Post by larue » Wed Aug 31, 2005 5:10 am

john,this might sound a bit crazy,but I hope to be able to compete
in some of the pointer/setter trials with my pup.
Her uncle won an af regional championship out west,and from what I see in her race,and her style,a high cracking tail,I think I might have a slight chance,she will at least make them take a look.

sdgord

trials

Post by sdgord » Wed Aug 31, 2005 6:13 am

John, we may have crossed paths, does Dave Benson have one of your pups? I have seen some very nice shorttails at Gregs.We brought our gordon bitch home for some maturing, I am not 100 percent sure she will make it as a trial dog. She wants to be a buddy. I have aquired a littermate of hers that I need to have Greg take a look at. Time seems to be a problem around here. Greg has taken out dog to ND and Tx I just have not had the time to go visit when they are gone. If I send this male to Tx in the winter I may have to plan a hunting trip.SDGORD

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cover dog

Post by sdgord » Wed Aug 31, 2005 6:20 am

Gunner, that could be the trial, I was reading the brace sheets to see if I knew anyone, gives me a good excuse to try to take some time off and go visit. Any dog that wins or places in that venue this time of year is a good unit. The conditions are dry, the country is vast and tough. That area of South Dakota is some of my favorite hunting. Starting to get too many pheasants in the grouse land. More guys irrigating crops, more row crop and small grain than prarie land. I have some time the next day or so I may try to get out to Brule and see whats going on.SDGORD

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Post by Wagonmaster » Wed Aug 31, 2005 6:32 am

sdgord-

Dave Benson's dog is the Daisy part of Spot x Daisy. Those are the ones.

I picked up on your comment about too many pheasants in grouse country. I know alot of people don't feel that way, but I sure do, and we are seeing it. I had one of those "ace in the hole" spots that was a set of treelines we could always find sharptail in. Last year it was full of pheasants, and for the first time in 7 or 8 years, no sharps. The pheasants do kind of take over.

I would say too bad about the pup, but "house dog" is a pretty nice position in life also. Keep looking, you will find one. Doesn't Greg go to the Gordon nationals.

Tak-

I ran those dogs for a few years, but am out of them right now. Hard not to be positive about them. And Bill (Gunner) is a pretty good guy, I think.

larue-

We will all want to hear about the win when you do it. I have given some thought to it also, but to do that, I would have to pull the dog out of the pros hands it is currently in, and off the circuit it is running right now. And then if you got a win, it would be bragging rights only in shorthair circles. Besides that, winning an AF weekend trial would be one thing. But winning on the major circuit is hard enough for a pointer to do.

I ran a wirehair against shorthairs for many years when there were not alot of wirehairs running at all. I managed to win enough, but there were some trials when they were looking for a reason not to look at him. It took a few years to build up some respect.

sdgord

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Post by sdgord » Wed Aug 31, 2005 6:48 am

John takes me a while but things are coming together, so then the young shorthairs that Dave and Wayne are running are Spot and Daisy pups. Yes Greg has been to the Gordon nationals several times Dave Benson handled Paul Jaegers dog Icehots Cobb to two consecutive NAFC's. Greg tells me that Gordon has what it takes to be competitive if we can just get her past that I wanna be at home thing. She lacks the consistency that Greg needs on his string. She just turned three, I am hoping another bird season will firm up her training. If not she is one heck of a grouse dog anyway.
Seemed to have highjacked another thread. oopsSDGORD

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Post by Wagonmaster » Wed Aug 31, 2005 8:34 am

I think it was my thread to start with. Hijack away.

Those are the pups. Dave unfortunately lost his to an impacted bowel this summer though.

Good luck with the Gordons. There used to be a fella, over in western WI I think, who used Gordons to tag woodcock for the DNR in the spring. Don't remember his name, but ran into a friend of his last spring and I understand he is still around but out of dogs now.

NDBDHunter

Post by NDBDHunter » Wed Aug 31, 2005 4:11 pm

Here's a question I asked myself recently. Isn't that desire to be a house dog and wanting that contact with people (perferably you and me) the reason we got into Gordons in the first place? If we wanted a dog to act like English pointers or Eng. setters than maybe we should get a pointer or a hot blooded setter. I say that because I'm at the cross roads now. I want to play the games but the type of dog that allows me to play those games does not have those characteristcs of the dog I originally wanted in my gordons. I wanted a laid back dog, a loyal one man dog that doesn't require alot of training, makes a good companion and isn't excitable to the point of having to kennel him or her everytime a guest comes over. But when I bought a pup from field lines I bought a black and tan english setter that won't stop for one second. She's made me rethink which way I want to go as to which stud I'm going to breed her too. Back to dual lines or strictly to field lines. I'm thinking that if I want a dog to compete in a particular game I'd buy a breed of dog that already does well in that venue. It would save me allot of time and energy. Just my opinion

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Post by larue » Wed Aug 31, 2005 4:54 pm

john,I have won a weekend af pointer trial (am shooting dog)
yet the dog I won with is a gundog,no more.
I have watched dixon win our gsp trials too many times with his wirehairs to not try.
I have no doubt I will have a very difficult if not impossible time
getting a shorthair to win an af championship.
Yet if I make the judges have to think about it,I will have made progress.
There are two wild bird af championships here in wis,so it costs me very little to try.Beuno vista is 70 miles away.
Eva's uncle FC Dunfur's Latest Edition ,won the 2004 American Field Region 10 Amateur All Age - so it is possible.
Hopefully I will meet you in eureka,I will be running eva in the futurity.

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Post by Wagonmaster » Wed Aug 31, 2005 8:38 pm

The weekend AF trials are a different deal entirely than the major circuit, but a win is a win.

Wirehairs winning shorthair trials is a different deal too, because wirehairs have been chipping away at that for years. Also, the wirehair clubs have opened there stakes to the shorthairs, at least in our area, for 20 years or more, so there is some mutual respect built up.

You win an AF Championship, and that will be a big deal. Go for it.

birddog

Post by birddog » Thu Sep 01, 2005 6:50 am

John, I thought your post was awesume. I had so many questions and most were answered except for this one....Being a Grouse hunter I know grouse are found in pockets. Just like fish in a lake. Not all sections of forest or lakes hold birds or fish. So lets say, 7 sections are choosen to run the trial, how do the people who pick these sections know if birds are holding out in all sections? Sometimes you can walk for hours before you run into birds. Is it a continuous course? Does the next brace pick up where the last brace left off?

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Post by Wagonmaster » Thu Sep 01, 2005 8:57 am

As far as continuity of courses and number of courses, it is continuous course, and one brace picks up where the last left off. The number of courses is dictated by the amount of ground the club has to work with. Here in Minnesota, the principal grounds I am familiar with are public ground, so you get what you get, but they are generally pretty good, in prime grouse country. The club tries to get enough so that a course is used no more than once in the a.m. and once in the p.m., and once per day is even better if it can be done.

Part of the issue as to number of courses, when the club was first starting to use the grounds around 1980, was the need to cut roads or paths for the handlers and galleries. Today, those are fairly well developed, they have plenty of courses, and maintenance is not such a big issue.

When the courses were first set up here, some good grouse hunters just walked the area the DNR gave them and divided the courses based on time (how long to go a half hour or full hour). They then did some preliminary running with veteran dogs to see if there were birds there. The roads they use pretty much all run through good grouse cover. I guess the key to it is that they had people who were active grouse hunters, and knew what good grouse cover was. I know it probably seems a stretch to most people, but some of these guys hunted so much that they would kill 50 or 60 birds in even a mediocre year, and one fellow I remember could do that using a .410 most of the time. He had some exceptional dogs. Just trying to give you the idea that the people who set up the club, and the trial grounds, pretty much lived in the grouse woods from opener until Christmas. So they knew where the grouse lived.

Good grouse cover is kind of a "know it when you see it" thing, but there are a few types that carry birds year after year. Heavy dog hair popple is one, although it is hard to keep track of the dogs in that kind of cover. It will also carry woodcock. Another very good type is swamp edges. These depressions or holes in the woods are great spots for holding birds, not in the grass or cattail of course, but in the brush around the edge. A third is what I call "grouse mix," some small conifer, some dogwood and alder, some popple (age not so important as in the dog hair stands). The club wants each course to have some types of these covers. They also want to avoid setting up courses that are mainly hardwood, or mature popple, and too open in the understory. More open courses will work in the up years (grouse as you may know have a roughly ten year cycle), but in the down years it is very important that each course have some of the best types.

Once a group, like the Minn. Grouse Dog Assoc. has been running on a particular ground for several years, they get to know which places carry grouse even in the bad years, so the courses might be fine tuned to make sure everyone has a fairly even shot. They may also shift courses around as the cover matures, and, for example, what were once stands of dog hair become popple too old to carry numbers of grouse. And being public ground, some of these areas are actively forested, so they have to adjust around areas that get cut.

They just have really good grouse hunters in the group, who know the trial grounds and can work out these adjustments.

But no matter what they do, there are always going to be some courses that are a little better than others. In the down cycle years (and we are at the bottom just maybe starting to turn up this year), the "luck of the draw" of courses can have more effect that in the great years, when the birds are just everywhere.

If your draw is not so good, or it is a down year, or both, then it is up to the dog to reach out to spots and birds that are not apparent from the path. Because the grounds are in public hunting areas, birds just sitting on the logging road, or right off the road, are not a common thing.

This is where the more extreme ranges for cover dogs come into play. It is kind of an art for the handler. The handler listens to the bell, which may be out of hearing for chunks of time. The handler has to have a pretty good idea of where the dog might be running, and how often it can be expected to check back. If the bell is audible and goes dead, or if the handler thinks the dog has been out too long and something must be up, it is time to dive into the woods and look.

No matter what your draw is, though, it is still a walk through the grouse woods, with the potential for a bird around every corner, which is magical in and of itself.

When the fall trial is advertised in the American Field I will just post the date for anyone who might be interested. You could go over and walk in the gallery just to see what it is like, even if you do not enter a dog. Gees, I have not done one of these myself for a bunch of years. We go out to ND mostly. But all this talk makes me think I should go up to the fall trial, just to see if I still know anyone.

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Post by Wagonmaster » Tue Sep 20, 2005 10:34 am

Promised to post the fall trial in Minn. Here it is. If you can go, you are lucky this year. The Grand National is here:

Amateur Field Trial Clubs of America, National Amateur Grouse Championships, Mora, MN, October 1, Linda Hunt - (901) 465-1556, secretary, 1300 Tripp Rd., Somerville, TN 38068

Don't know that Linda Hunt will be attending, but she will give you the when, where and who to contact in Mn.

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Post by gunner » Wed Sep 21, 2005 6:22 am

Here are some MN. & WI cover dog contact folk...

Fall Trials
10/1/2005 ----- Mora MN – Nat Amateur Grouse Championship


10/7/2005 ----- Augusta WI – Wisconsin Cover Dog Championship


10/12/2005 ----- Mora MN – Minnesota Grouse Championship



Wisconsin & Minnesota Club Contact Information
The contact for MN is Scott Anderson at anderson.s.t@worldnet.att.net

The contact for WI is Brett Edstrom at bedstrom@northernpcs.com

drwink

Great thread John

Post by drwink » Wed Sep 21, 2005 9:36 am

Very well explained & nice to see a short tailed guy can give that great of an explaination, well my hat is off to ya.

Your explainations about the trial grounds is pretty much the way it is here in Michigan also.

Last year was my first year getting involved in coverdog trials & I am now hooked.
Lots of hard work & just last month I got a first derby win with a 3rd place with a 16 month old setter.

The Grand National is here this year, if anybody from here shows up I like to meet ya.

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Post by Wagonmaster » Wed Sep 21, 2005 10:01 am

Have shorttails at the present, but not always in the past. Have changed my shirt several times. Gives perspective about what else there is. Although the description is mine, the credit belongs to some old friends, who started up what we called "grouse" trials at the time, in Minnesota, Jeff Hintz, Ron Watson, Rollie Benjamin, several others. They did the work, I got to enjoy it.

Congrats on the placement. With cover dogs, a placement is no small accomplishment.

drwink

Thanks John

Post by drwink » Wed Sep 21, 2005 2:56 pm

Thats ok, I have 2 GSP's, a Weim & 5 setters counting the 2 setter pups we got this year.
Hopefully we can wind up with a decent shooting dog or 2 down the road.
I know a lot of people in other parts of the country probably can't even imaginge what a cover dog trial is like but I really enjoy grouse & woodcock hunting more than anything else & this is about as close as it gets to a hunting situation & wild birds are it for me.
Sure we use pigeons & quail for starting out the pups but after that it pays to train on wild birds.
I know a woodcock bander, some of her dogs have never seen a quail. Here's a link to some of her woodcock banding dogs, click on the woodcock photo
http://www.pbase.com/dataman

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Post by Wagonmaster » Fri Sep 23, 2005 1:25 pm

I really enjoy grouse & woodcock hunting more than anything else & this is about as close as it gets to a hunting situation & wild birds are it for me.


same here

HUTCH

Post by HUTCH » Fri Sep 23, 2005 11:36 pm

NDBDHunter wrote:Here's a question I asked myself recently. Isn't that desire to be a house dog and wanting that contact with people (perferably you and me) the reason we got into Gordons in the first place? If we wanted a dog to act like English pointers or Eng. setters than maybe we should get a pointer or a hot blooded setter. I say that because I'm at the cross roads now. I want to play the games but the type of dog that allows me to play those games does not have those characteristcs of the dog I originally wanted in my gordons. I wanted a laid back dog, a loyal one man dog that doesn't require alot of training, makes a good companion and isn't excitable to the point of having to kennel him or her everytime a guest comes over. But when I bought a pup from field lines I bought a black and tan english setter that won't stop for one second. She's made me rethink which way I want to go as to which stud I'm going to breed her too. Back to dual lines or strictly to field lines. I'm thinking that if I want a dog to compete in a particular game I'd buy a breed of dog that already does well in that venue. It would save me allot of time and energy. Just my opinion
I have a setter from field trial lines and he is the best house dog I have ever had. he is still a puppy and calm enough to play with my 10 month old son. his grand dad is TM sunrise on one side and TM patriot on the other so not all trial dogs are hyper.

NDBDHunter

Post by NDBDHunter » Sat Sep 24, 2005 9:41 am

I know there are dogs like that. But I haven't been lucky enough to find one like that when I've bought a dog from field lines / "High test" lines . My comment was more directed at the "Americanization" (If that's a word) of the breeds. As an example look at the various lines of English setters. From Ryman / Old Hemlock lines to Tricky "bleep" type dogs, 180 degrees difference between styles. From what I've heard they all hunt but they do it differently. Some people are breeding Gordons for more run, high tails and more independence. We already have dogs like that here. Why waste the time to recreate the wheel. But that's my opinion. This is America and they can do what they want. There's certainly is more than one way to do things. I just wanted to vent a little

Ryan

Post by Ryan » Sat Sep 24, 2005 10:21 am

I think they did that with all setters. I got mine from the original lines and she points tail dwn or straight out. This was so the master could throw a net over the dog to trap all the birds. Now look at setters they point tail up. Yes it looks good and they are easier to find but why change the breed.

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Post by Wagonmaster » Sat Sep 24, 2005 12:27 pm

I can't speak to Gordon's, because I don't have one, but can speak to shorthairs. The mother of my current dog was field trial stock, and she was terrific around the house. The sire of my current female was a multiple National Ch., and she is terrific around the house. Right now, I am at the Reg. 8, and the hosts have four out of trial stock that live in the house,

I gotta say, the "Americanization" of shorthairs has done the opposite of what you suggest has happened with Gordons. It has modified those old German dog temperments so the current version is great around kids and people, and does very well living in the house.

HUTCH

Post by HUTCH » Sat Sep 24, 2005 2:10 pm

wagonmaster,

where did you get your shorthair? thanks.

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Post by Casper » Sat Sep 24, 2005 11:33 pm

This may just be hearsay but I read else where that the reason we see more dogs with a high tail is while developing that trait a high tail set changed how the bones and muscles are shaped and gave the dogs more speed or longer gait or something like that

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Post by snips » Sun Sep 25, 2005 6:50 am

The correct conformation is a tail coming high off any dogs back. That does not mean the tail is straight up. I can`t stand a low tail, this meaning a dog who`s back slopes off before the tail. How hi a dogs tail is is just a personal preference, it is probably obvious where I like my dogs tail. If a tail is 10-12 o`clock does not make much difference to me, I just want to see them come off a dogs back well. It is explained best I believe in Delmars book how it leaves more room for the hind quarters muscle and good rear drive.
brenda

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Post by Wagonmaster » Sun Sep 25, 2005 8:28 am

TMNeo-

I bred it. The sire is Ruth Blank's Moesgaard's RB Rhythm N Blues ("Timmy"). The older female (Reba) I spoke about was a daughter of Antrim's Wayside Willie. She died of cancer so no repeat breeding. The two dogs I have now are a female that lives at home, which is a daughter of Reba x Timmy, and a male dog that is in a field trial string which is out of the same breeding.

But I gotta tell you, I am writing this sitting out at an NGSPA Championship, and there are house dogs/trial dogs all over the place. At any given time there are 2 - 5 of them running around the dining room here, getting petted by us crusty old field trialers. Our hosts, the Richardsons, have a bunch. The pro that has my dog, Eldon Hongo, runs a multiple Nat. Ch. shooting dog that sleeps in the house. 3x NFC Slick Dixie's Tarkus.

PS I should tell you that I have not met a good hunting dog yet, that was not an energetic handful around the house until somewhere around two years of age. But somewhere between 1 1/2 and 2/2 they "chill out" and begin to behave themselves. Puppies are puppies.

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Post by TAK » Sun Sep 25, 2005 11:38 pm

Just got in from two days of Chukar hunting. While I was out there I got to thinking about this topic. Running a trial on WILD BIRDS! Good Lord, How?

I say this cuz my A-1 Go to Dog, My cream of the Crop, my pride and joy handled the wild birds Sat afternoon like a......... 4 month old pup! The first 3 coveys he blew into them like a missle! like they were "bleep" birds! I Did get some better than ever corrections for it. After our talk at the rock pile, He did follow up with 2 smaller covey finds to get me a limit.

I just got to thinking about the posts on the Wild Bird trials and no retrieving...... Well if you don't get the birds handled right you don't shoot anyway. OK you can the dog!

I am not sure if there is a Wild Bird Trial on Chukars but if there is I will buy the WINNER!

Did I mention my Pads are Blown!

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Post by Casper » Sun Sep 25, 2005 11:41 pm

LMAO at least you managed to scrape down a limit

Ryan

Post by Ryan » Sun Sep 25, 2005 11:41 pm

ont worry Tak mine did the same thing. She got all birdy went on the stalk and just as i was about to stop her bam she blew into those birds like a fat kid eating a cup cake.

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Post by TAK » Sun Sep 25, 2005 11:49 pm

To top it off I blew 3 of Clowns Pads, two of Speeds and had to hunt Niki and Jesse that are in Full Blown Heat!

Even better than that I went down with 4 dogs and came back with 5!
I found a gunshy E-Pointer! i think someone left her out there to die! She had no collar but I can see where she did not so long ago.
Just Wrong to do it that way. I borught here home. I will try to find the owners? or I will try to give her to a home as a pet.....
She is gunshy but how bad? Nice looking Liver and white.

Ryan

Post by Ryan » Sun Sep 25, 2005 11:51 pm

U got picks?

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Post by TAK » Sun Sep 25, 2005 11:51 pm

Casper wrote:LMAO at least you managed to scrape down a limit
Man I am seeing alot of birds! Easy place to hunt too! Lots of birds I have not figured how to get to. THe big nasty cliff would leave a mark if one was to fall!

dhondtm

Post by dhondtm » Sun Sep 25, 2005 11:53 pm

TAK wrote:i think someone left her out there to die! She had no collar but I can see where she did not so long ago.
Just Wrong to do it that way.
Unbelievable, but I know it happens. Good for you to help find her a home.

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Post by TAK » Sun Sep 25, 2005 11:56 pm

I do! I have to down load them at work. I got Clown on point, and the camera still works as I tried the picture and then the birds came up and the camera went down.
I have one of my Jesse dog too. She nailed a hard point and I never produced anything for at least 50 yards! What a nose! Na I seen the birds running out.

Ryan

Post by Ryan » Sun Sep 25, 2005 11:57 pm

what about the EP u got picks of her

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