08 NGSPA National Championship (All Age)

Blue Dawn Kennel · Post by **Blue Dawn Kennel** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 6:25 pm

Just heard that the 08 NGSPA National Championship was with held. Heard dog's did have birds but most were lost due to tall grassy fields or took out birds. Think, John will have to tell us the rest of the story when he gets online but heard one dog had birds but not an all age race so was withheld. All I know other than they'll draw the Futurity tonight and start at 8 am (probably) in the morning.

lvrgsp · Post by **lvrgsp** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 8:22 pm

Thanks for the updates Robbi, I know I sure do appreciate it. As with anyone who givees us updates.

Chip

Blue Dawn Kennel · Post by **Blue Dawn Kennel** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 10:16 pm

Here's John's post from another forum on Spot and some other dogs.

"Jax ran a great race but had no find despite being given 20 minutes
after time to find the dog on birds somewhere. Cutter went the wrong
direction and got lost in the woods. LB was good, not his greatest
race ever I don't think. Had finds, I don't know how many, but came
almost to the end of the course and then went back, not sure they
produced him at time. A couple of other dogs got around but weren't
really doing it.

Spot knocked the socks off the course, had three limb finds, and we
apparently lost him right at the end. Could not produce him despite
efforts after time. Eldon found him standing on birds with the
tracker nearly 45 minutes later.

Lack of birds was not a problem this year.

I gotta say, I was not very disappointed. It was a thrill to watch
Spot lay down that kind of race."

Although, Mark had told us that he lost Cutter off the break away and found him 2 miles to the front with the tracker and also said "Jax was doing a heck of a job race wise and they gave him some time to find a birdy with no avail.

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 8:33 am

Yes, Cutter was lost early. I did not see all of Jax's race but everyone said he did a really nice job, just no birds. Jax and Cutter were on Course 2, LB drew Course 1, Spot was on 3.

Penny was doing a nice job on 2 also, but was seen running under birds.

lvrgsp · Post by **lvrgsp** » Sat Mar 01, 2008 10:31 am

I take it they are running or ran the futurity? Then the Amatuer, and then the open, is that correct?

Chip

Neil Mace · Post by **Neil Mace** » Sat Mar 01, 2008 4:34 pm

Tough luck, John, an honest, 100% staunch bird dog is penalized in field trials. If the scout and handler can't find them, it just the way it is. Take one that is 50 -50 on his birds, the scout can almost always find them. Nope it is those dead steady ones that get ridden past on point.

Happened to Mike Tracy at the US SD Inv. Ch two weeks ago, when he pulled out the Tracker, the dog was on point, 12 minutes back up the course.

A tough one, I am sorry, but I know you wouldn't trade him for one of mine that will take the birds out and come on, often when I don't want them to.

Neil

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Sun Mar 02, 2008 8:11 am

Thanks Neil, but nobody needs to feel sorry for me or the dog. We are down here having fun. That is just the way trialing goes, part of the game. It was thrill to watch him run.

The bigger problem is that I have him entered in the ASD and have to try run him myself tomorrow. He is maturing as a dog, and is bigger running this year than last. Last year I could get him around. This year, well, I think I am in big trouble.

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Sun Mar 02, 2008 11:47 am

Good luck John! Sounds like a fun time!

FWIW, I can't believe they didn't line 'em up and run 'em again in the AA - or at least some of 'em. It's the Nat'l Ch., the dogs have supposedly proven they belong there - run 'em till ya' have a winner IMO. The argument it's "not good for the breed" just doesn't hold weight with me - if a breed of dogs is so poor the results of one trial can make or break it, it's probably not worth having in the first place and anyone that breeds to a dog simply because it's a Nat'l Ch. ought not to be breeding dogs at all. My .02 on that deal. :roll:

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Sun Mar 02, 2008 12:39 pm

DGFavor wrote:Good luck John! Sounds like a fun time!

FWIW, I can't believe they didn't line 'em up and run 'em again in the AA - or at least some of 'em. It's the Nat'l Ch., the dogs have supposedly proven they belong there - run 'em till ya' have a winner IMO. The argument it's "not good for the breed" just doesn't hold weight with me - if a breed of dogs is so poor the results of one trial can make or break it, it's probably not worth having in the first place and anyone that breeds to a dog simply because it's a Nat'l Ch. ought not to be breeding dogs at all. My .02 on that deal. :roll:

Well here's wishing John some luck today/tomorrow.

Doug you make a good point. Every dog at that trial has proven they deserve to be there. It is well within the judges purview to run them all again, or to pick the 4,6... however many they liked best and run them again to produce a winner.

For what it costs everyone to qualify, and then get to this trial it would sure make more sense than saying "We have no AA champion this year".

Admittedly I'm still very much a rookie at the whole NGSPA thing, but your logic sounds good to me. CR

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Sun Mar 02, 2008 5:18 pm

Heck I don't know the for real right thing to do about that stuff either CR, not sure anybody does - just blabbing as usual!

In my mind, field trials, and in particular championship level field trials, are a competition where the "best of the day" wins. In field trialing, that doesn't always seem to be the case, requiring that the entrants first meet a certain standard in their performance before even being considered for a placement. I suppose in some instances, such as AF qualifier trials or AKC weekend trials, that might make sense. IMO, in the trials where admittance to the field is gained by having previously satisfied a certain performance level, you run 'em until you get a winner. Conditions are not always conducive to great performance, especially in a one day trial with a small number of entries like I believe this AA stake turned out to be. I've seen a few of those dogs in action and they be gooduns - one of 'em probably deserved a year in the limelight just based on their accomplishments in getting there!!

Could you imagine the cool "slugfest", just keep calling 'em back until one decides to win the thing!!

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Sun Mar 02, 2008 11:47 pm

Since I know most of the handlers that are there Doug I'd bet instead of a "slugfest" what you'd see is a whole lot of happy handlers and owners saying, "Fine idea what time do we draw".

Now if the judges honestly thought they flat had "no worthy dogs" then by all means don't waste any one's time with a second series. But at that level I don't think you'd ever get that opinion from the judges. If you did it would have to be the absolute most unusual circumstances and/or a couple of judges that wouldn't be invited back. CR

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 12:05 am

Haha!! I meant, figuratively, a "slugfest" between the dogs!! Not the handlers!!

wannabe · Post by **wannabe** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 7:18 am

DGFavor wrote:line 'em up and run 'em again in the AA - or at least some of 'em.

..or maybe just throw their names in a hat and draw the 2008 NFC :roll:

If the NGSPA is going to make the AA stake their NFC, then they should accept the fact that AA dogs don't always make it around the course.

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 11:54 am

..or maybe just throw their names in a hat and draw the 2008 NFC

What part of run 'em until ya' get a winner sounded like draw the winner out of a hat??

You don't have to agree with runnin' 'em again Wannabe, doesn't hurt my feelings, but no reason to belittle someone elses opinion.

If the NGSPA is going to make the AA stake their NFC, then they should accept the fact that AA dogs don't always make it around the course.

I imagine everybody understands that as well. It's just my opinion that "we're running our breed Nat'l Championship here boy's, all your dogs have earned the right to be here so noone leaves until we get a winner no matter how ugly it gets!"

BigShooter · Post by **BigShooter** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 12:59 pm

I guess by default the '07 NC remains the reigning NC until deposed at a later date.

lvrgsp · Post by **lvrgsp** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 4:33 pm

I would really like to see a Championship series. In that you qualify to be there and then you run a qualifying series and then a callback series, that would help to eliminate the one bad day, you gotta be good in both series to win. I know the dogs there have proved themselves, but to me this would tighten things up a bit. Just an opinion.

And to be real honest with you I would like to see a 3 day 1 hour endurance shooting dog stake, That to me would be a great test. Again Just a thought to ponder on. Hmmm

Chip

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 5:04 pm

And to be real honest with you I would like to see a 3 day 1 hour endurance shooting dog stake, That to me would be a great test. Again Just a thought to ponder on. Hmmm

Right on - speaking my language now man! That'd be awesome! My goal is to get something like that going on my place if I could make some significant progress one of these years!! Dang bird dogs are such a darn deterrent to ever getting anything responsible accomplished!! Hmmm...what to do today...pull up a mile of old barbwire fence or grab the horses and dogs and go try and get some sharpies pointed...easy choice!!!

It really is a bummer when good dogs pick a bad day to have a bad day!!

lvrgsp · Post by **lvrgsp** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 5:18 pm

Yea I can understand that, pretty easy choice, but to me that is a real test for birddogs, they can have that one day of ok work with no birds and come back and lay it down for the following 2 days and that to me is a heck of a test, I hope you can get that together Doug, maybe you could have Alex present the pink glove award or something.

Chip

BigShooter · Post by **BigShooter** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 6:39 pm

So, you guys would favor the Baseball World Series format to the Super Bowl format? How about "sudden death"? One option after the first hour run w/o a winner: the judge(s) select the dogs for the sudden death re-run. Put GPSs on 'em, use a stop watch. First dog on a confirmed point wins!

original mngsp · Post by **original mngsp** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 7:14 pm

Put GPSs on 'em

GPS's have no reason to be involved with judging dogs in any way shape or form.

BigShooter · Post by **BigShooter** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 8:28 pm

So, you didn't like my suggestion for a sudden death format. The GPSs would only be slapped on them for sudden death. The judge would hold the GPS receiver. The dogs would be timed til the GPS indicated their first stop. The usual process would be followed to locate (without GPS assistance) and confirm live birds under point. At least it'd be fast and better than drawing straws for the NC!

MNGSP, I think you gave a serious reply to a light-hearted response to the disappointing result of the AA NC being withheld. At a minimum I'd have preferred to see the judge's discretion applied and a re-run employed, but who am I to judge?

original mngsp · Post by **original mngsp** » Tue Mar 04, 2008 5:27 am

Bigshooter

Sorry about misunderstanding the intention of your post. I've heard that theory of GPS untits being used to judge prior to this and it never sits well with me.

Neil Mace · Post by **Neil Mace** » Tue Mar 04, 2008 9:48 am

I just reported the US Shooting Dog Invitational Championship, the pointer guys have invitationals for Open and Amateur, All-Age, Shooting Dog, and Derby, US Complete even has one, I love the format.

Basically, the top 12 dogs in the nation, based on the Purina points list, are invited to compete for an hour on day one, then redrawn for a different time of day and a different bracemate and run for another hour on day two, then the judges decide how many to call back for the 90 minute finals, usually 4, sometimes 6, rarely only 2. The winner is based on the total performance of all three days. It removes a great deal of the luck of weather, time of day, bracemate, minor errors, uncooperative birds, etc.

It is the best format I know of to prove the top dog, it is more significant to me than the National Championship.

Can't believe they withheld a National Championship, takes a lot of confidence as a judge to say no dog was up to their standards when they know they are looking at the best of the breed. I know I couldn't do it, I'd pick one or have a second series, no matter how pressed for time the club was.

Neil

Dave Quindt · Post by **Dave Quindt** » Tue Mar 04, 2008 10:42 am

Neil wrote:

Can't believe they withheld a National Championship, takes a lot of confidence as a judge to say no dog was up to their standards when they know they are looking at the best of the breed.

Neil,

There is a long tradition of withholding at this championship. The NGSPA AA National was withheld in '91, '88, '84 & '83. Heck, the first year the National was held ('53) a winner was named but the title withheld.

There seems to be a rather established tendency towards withholding placements in GSP trials, even weekend AKC stakes.

Due to the rather fractured nature of our breed, we have 3 AA National Championships. The next one to run only a few weeks after this one, with probably twice the AA entries that they drew at Booneville.

We have plenty of opportunities for our AA dogs to prove themselves. The breed is better off having a title withheld than it is having the title awarded to a dog with a questionable performance that comes from a field half the size of the average entry for this stake.

JMO,
Dave

Crestonegsp · Post by **Crestonegsp** » Tue Mar 04, 2008 11:17 am

I am sitting at home and have no idea what happened in Boonville this year and do not know if they did or did not have a worthy winner. The problem in my opinion is we do not have many true AA dogs in our breed and too often range is the only factor used to determine an AA dog.

Many times a SD is entered in an AA stake and they get put up and you have now created an AA winner that is not an AA dog. Is this an issue with judge knowledge or do they feel they should put someone up and not withhold?

I have no problem with not naming a winner in the National Championship Stake instead of putting up a SD

SFK · Post by **SFK** » Tue Mar 04, 2008 11:36 am

Neil Mace wrote:Can't believe they withheld a National Championship, takes a lot of confidence as a judge to say no dog was up to their standards when they know they are looking at the best of the breed.

Steger is that judge. He's won it enough to know what it takes.

Dave Quindt wrote:The breed is better off having a title withheld than it is having the title awarded to a dog with a questionable performance

Agreed.

BigShooter · Post by **BigShooter** » Tue Mar 04, 2008 11:53 am

The breed is better off having a title withheld than it is having the title awarded to a dog with a questionable performance that comes from a field half the size of the average entry for this stake.

I thought the issue is always more about quality than quantity. I believe a number of you know the dogs that ran in Boonesville better than I. In your opinion were there no quality AA dogs at the stake or was this an illustration of a bad day, bad draw, bad luck, etc.? ...or is the whole point that ... you need a larger field of quality dogs so there will be one AA dog that has a good day, good draw, good luck, etc.? Just looking for opinions and education.

lvrgsp · Post by **lvrgsp** » Tue Mar 04, 2008 12:29 pm

Just an update on the Nationals. Congrats to all.
Futurity Placements

1. Monkeyshines Solo
O: Mario Dimambro
H: Dan Dimambro

2. Outbak's No Rein's
O/H: Rich Barber

3. Hadlock's She's For Me
O: Linnea Hadlock
H: Rich Barber

Chip

SFK · Post by **SFK** » Tue Mar 04, 2008 1:08 pm

I would say it’s about quality and not quantity. I’m guessing that the judges just didn’t see their National Champion on the runs they saw. There were dogs there that could do it – just not on those runs in judges’ eyes. It was probably a result of a bad day and bad luck. Maybe some of the folks that were down there can let us in on what happened when they get home.

Congrats Dan/Mario and Rich!

greyrockd · Post by **greyrockd** » Wed Mar 05, 2008 2:34 pm

Back when john was winning at boonesville the dogs were 1/2 pointers,with all the dna testing the AA dogs in our breed could or will very well be a thing of the past.

BigShooter · Post by **BigShooter** » Wed Mar 05, 2008 2:52 pm

Assume you meant Steger not John Lunseth.

greyrockd · Post by **greyrockd** » Wed Mar 05, 2008 3:04 pm

You would be right

withheld · Post by **withheld** » Wed Mar 05, 2008 4:35 pm

YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING!!!!greyrockd WERE YOU THERE? WHAT DOGS ARE, OR WERE ALL HALF POINTER.
YOU GOTTA BE JOKING.

greyrockd · Post by **greyrockd** » Wed Mar 05, 2008 5:06 pm

just making my point,everone has one right,if you don't think theres pointer blood in gsp's you haven't been arround,my point is this it was worse back then without checks and balances.
now days with dna its more on the up and up.

withheld · Post by **withheld** » Wed Mar 05, 2008 5:30 pm

AA dogs in our breed could or will very well be a thing of the past.

That is what I'm talking about. Pointer, no pointer, that is a tired statement.
Have you been to Booneville? Not exactly what a lot of people would call AA grounds. (They run coon hound trials there) Look at the lack of entries there, and then look at the Great Plains Championship entries in a couple weeks.

They withheld the placements, because none of the dogs performed to an AA championship standard. Right or wrong that was the judges decision. That doesn't mean those were not AA dogs by any means.

So you really think the AA gsp "pointers" of the past are or were better than the AA GSP's we have today?

cckgundogs · Post by **cckgundogs** » Wed Mar 05, 2008 5:36 pm

For those of you that have never been to Booneville its a challenge to get a big shooting dog around let alone an all-age dog.There are lots of edges many of them running the opposite way you want the dog to go. The grass has been unusually high the past few years but not thick. A dog can scauld an edge and you can't see them which makes it much more difficult to handle your dog. Scenting conditions there are different than other grounds. You are running in a valley surrounded by mountains and the wind does weird things there. It really doesn't matter which direction the wind is out of in my opinion.I have judged down there and won down there. I lost both of my dogs. Jax made the hour only to disappear after the judges told me not to come back until I found him on point, didn't see him until time was out and he was way to the front. Cutter was gone in a few minutes and I used the tracker to find him way out front after time was up.Thats the way all age dogs can be. Its much easier to finish them in big open country like the sand hills or flint hills. Pyramid state park is much beter grounds than Booneville and I think I will spend my time there next spring rather than Boonville. I'm not sure I'll ever go back.

withheld · Post by **withheld** » Wed Mar 05, 2008 5:40 pm

Yeah there were pointers bred to gsp's and britts and setters and just about every other pointing dog you can name. heck I have seen vizsla pups that looked like red holstein cattle from attempted pointer crosses. I have even seen an old weim field trialer that kept two solid liver shorthair bitches in his kennels. Wonder what he was doing? Doesn't change anything though does it?
Thanks for the newsflash.......them shorthairs they gots pointer in 'em. yep they do.

greyrockd · Post by **greyrockd** » Wed Mar 05, 2008 5:51 pm

That is a good point,I think old men forget,They dwell on the past and some how remember that some dog was really greater than he was,
I heard John S. ramble(at killdeer) about no real AA dogs in the breed and the only real AA dog in the breed was a dog named Cowboy.
I think that the Gsps today are at there best,I've been hunting since I was10 ,breeding gundogs and gsp's for 15 yrs,but only Ft,for 3 years, but in those 3 years we've had dogs with several pro's and they all talk alot and I don't think any one was surprize,at least my guy wasn't
I saw him the week before he went and he bent my ear.

greyrockd · Post by **greyrockd** » Wed Mar 05, 2008 5:55 pm

thanks for the warm welcome.

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Mar 05, 2008 8:40 pm

Greyrockd,

Warm welcomes are sometimes earned and not just given. Statements like you made need to have some evidence attached or it is best to just keep your opinions to yourself. You turn a lot of people off with rumor and gossipand no facts.

Ezzy

original mngsp · Post by **original mngsp** » Wed Mar 05, 2008 8:50 pm

Well stated Ezzy, thank you.

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 9:32 am

In an effort to put a stop to the arguments that the judges were at fault for withholding the championship, let me say I rode all the braces except Mark Wasserman's with Jax, and the judges had nothing to do with it. It was one of those situations where each dog's performance showed that the standard could be fulfilled that day, but none fulfilled the standard.

Jax (from the report I heard from Mark) and Art Armbrust's Maggie Mae had great races but no birds. But it was not a day where you could say lack of birds was the cause because many other dogs had birds. Spot had three finds but could not be produced at time, or within the "1/3 of the brace length" after time that was allowed. Other dogs just did not have acceptable races for many different reasons, but there was no question in the minds of anyone there that they were not acceptable races.

The judges were honest judges and they did the right thing.

It was the fifth time in the 56 years the event has been held that the title was withheld.

The entry is always small compared to the other two GSP National Championships. The dogs must all qualify by winning an hour NGSPA Championship, in order to enter the NGSPA NC at all. Thus, all dogs have the field title of "Champion." An FC or a half hour win does not do it as they would for the GSPCA or the NGPDA. There is no other GSP Championship in the country with qualifications that high just to get there. And no cross entries are allowed between the NGSPA National AA and the NGSPA National Open Shooting Dog, in other words, if a dog is entered in the AA it cannot enter the OSD. So anyone who thinks their chances would be better in the Shooting Dog, will not enter the AA.

Because of the type of country it is run on, the NGSPA is the toughest AA National Championship that we have. It was a privilege to run in the stake and I agree with the judge's decision. What they did makes it clear that the title is one to be earned only by the dogs that fulfill the high standards of the stake, and not one to just be given away.

SFK · Post by **SFK** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 1:29 pm

Thanks John!

Crestonegsp · Post by **Crestonegsp** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 2:40 pm

John,

A previous winner or runner-up in a National, Specie, or Regional Championship (Amateur Shooting Dog, Open Shooting Dog, or All Age) will be qualified for life.

An AKC FC can get you into the OSD or ASD

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 4:52 pm

Thank you Dan. I know what the qualifications are for the three Championships, NGSPA, NGPDA and GSPCA.

Just a little clarification. The term "National Championship" as used by the NGSPA is reserved for the All Age stake. All of the others, such as the NGSPA National Amateur Shooting Dog Championship, or the National Open Shooting Dog Championship, have adjectives or qualifiers to describe the type of Championship.

The requirements for entering the NGPDA, the GSPCA, or the NGPSA's NOSDC or NASDC are all lower than the requirements for entering the NGSPA National Championship. For example, a dog can qualify to run in the NGPDA All Age by winning a 4th place in any AKC or AF trial, including half hour stakes and including walking gun dog stakes. Only a dog that has won Ch. or RU Ch. in an NGSPA hour Championship is qualified for the NGSPA NC.

I was simply responding to this comment made earlier: "Look at the lack of entries there, and then look at the Great Plains Championship entries in a couple weeks."

The Great Plains is a qualifying event for the NC. It only takes a "win certificate" meaning 3rd place or better in a half hour stake of any kind (including a Walking Gun Dog) to qualify to enter the GPC. It takes a win at the GPC or a similar trial (a Regional or Specie) to be able to run in the NC at Booneville. It is simply erroneous to compare the entries between the NGPSA National Championship and the GPC (or similar trial).

cckgundogs · Post by **cckgundogs** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 5:34 pm

The all age was tough in Boonville. I think Spot did the best job of the dogs I saw. As far as the judges go it was a pleasure to run under Steger and the judge from California. Steger wants to see the best dog win and wants a true all age dog. A shooting dog won't slip in under his watch which is the way it should be.Steger can come across gruff to people that don't know him but he is extremly helpful when running a dog. He truly wants you to show the dog and do what it takes to do so, no akc mentality there. I would happily run under both judges again at any venue.

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 8:19 pm

In an effort to put a stop to the arguments that the judges were at fault for withholding the championship

Yikes! Hope I wasn't coming across as saying the decision was a "fault" - it's abolutely a judgement decision with no absolute right or wrong. I think some of us folks, responding from the pressure cooker environment of our comfortable computer chairs, are just saying we might have maybe, possibly done it differently.

There is no other GSP Championship in the country with qualifications that high just to get there.

You're making my point for me!! They've all proved their mettle just by getting there - what point is there to be made by withholding a championship from any one of those dogs??? One of 'em deserved a year as king 'o the lands IMO even if they were the best stinker in a field of stinkers on that day!!

Dave Quindt · Post by **Dave Quindt** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 9:10 pm

Doug wrote:

One of 'em deserved a year as king 'o the lands IMO even if they were the best stinker in a field of stinkers on that day!!

And how exactly would this help improve the breed again?

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 10:04 pm

Dave wrote:

And how exactly would this help improve the breed again?

Being the best among a field of the best on a given day just doesn't seem like a bad thing to me. Like John has said, these dogs are well qualified to be there.

And how exactly would it serve to hinder the breed?

Is the shorthair breed so fragile one trial result could ruin it??

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 10:42 pm

And how exactly would it serve to hinder the breed? Is the shorthair breed so fragile one trial result could ruin it??

Doug I'm a long ways from an expert on the NGSPA trial circuit but having attended and run dogs in a few and having spent a lot of time with the participants I can give you some insight as to the mentality.

Unlike the weekend trials every NGSPA trial is designed to produce a Champion and a RU CH. These guys are dead serious (Judges, trial comittes, and participants) in making dead sure that there's no question, whether there's 13 dogs, or 75 in a stake that if a dog gets named CH that day he absolutely deserved it. That way none of the malcontents can ever say "That was a Cheap Win!".

At the region and species level it's not at all unheard of to withold the placements, or to place four dogs without naming a champion if the judges don't feel they saw a "Championship Performance" in a given stake.

I do think though that at this level your idea of running a second series has merit if none of the performances was "Championship Level" but that's something for the guys with a whole lot more invested in the NGSPA than myself to decide. I'd love for guys like John and Pepper to chime in on that one. CR