Savannah River Championship

remmy · Post by **remmy** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 5:13 pm

Just heard that Selena is continuing her winning ways and Joe sweeps the ASD.

Amateur Shooting Dog:

Winner: Tulli's Scatback O/H Joe Amatulli
Runner-up: Tulli's Shelby O/H Joe Amatulli

Big Congrats to Joe!

Blue Dawn Kennel · Post by **Blue Dawn Kennel** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 12:43 pm

Congrats out to Joe, Selena and Shelby. Both are super nice girls.

Remmy thanks for keeping us up to date, please continue.

Robbi

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 12:51 pm

My oh my. I believe that is 32 hour wins for Selena. It is going to be a hard record for any of us to beat. Congratulations to Joe.

Casper · Post by **Casper** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 6:41 pm

Wagonmaster wrote:I believe that is 32 hour wins for Selena.

Wouldnt that put her right on the heals of Tarkus for most hour wins?

lvrgsp · Post by **lvrgsp** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 6:49 pm

I believe she has surpassed Tarkus, I think she has more hour wins than any shorthair at this point. Tark I thought had around 25 or so, not real sure the exact amount.

Chip

Blue Dawn Kennel · Post by **Blue Dawn Kennel** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 7:38 pm

We just talked to Rich Barber and he and Zip (Cebourn's Midwest Express) owned by Larry Bradley won the Savannah AA Championship. Didn't say who got runner up maybe someone else can fill us in on that one. Congrats guys and Zip.

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 9:32 pm

Hey Chip, yes, she is the record holder. She is past Tarkus.

remmy · Post by **remmy** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 5:24 pm

I just got a call from Matt Basilone and my little Bell won the OSD!

Winner: Alpenblick's Southern Bell- O-Rob Errigo, H-Matt Basilone
Runner up went to a dog handled by Rich Barber...Jake?

lvrgsp · Post by **lvrgsp** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 5:31 pm

Nice win Remmy, big congrats!!!!!!!........

Hi-N-Kennels · Post by **Hi-N-Kennels** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 8:46 pm

Bob
Congrats on your 2nd AF win. That is awesome!

Hank Lewis

Blue Dawn Kennel · Post by **Blue Dawn Kennel** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:33 pm

Congrats Remmy and to Matt and your Bell that is wonderful. As Hank said" thats 2 down" what a way to start the new year.

Robbi

snips · Post by **snips** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 10:43 pm

AWSOME!!!! Big Congrats!!!

remmy · Post by **remmy** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 8:29 am

Thanks everyone! It feels great! I only wish I was there to see her.

lvrgsp · Post by **lvrgsp** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 4:21 pm

That dog Richie was handling was it What's The Point Jake?

Chip

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 4:55 pm

I will post the results to the Bird Dog Posse site and to the 2008 Dog of the Year standings ASAP. You will be #1 OSD for at least two weeks, Rob.

remmy · Post by **remmy** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 4:56 pm

I don't think it was. I know What's the Point Jake is owned and handled by Peter Coppens. I don't think he uses a pro. I may be wrong though.

It could have been Jacks maybe? I asked Matt and he wasn't sure he said it was Jake or something like that. I am pretty sure it was Bell's bracemate that got runner up so that may help to narrow it down if anyone knows the running order?

remmy · Post by **remmy** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:17 pm

I was wrong. The runner up was What's the Point Jake. However, I believe Peter Coppens was one of the judges and I'm hearing the dog was DQ'd. If what I heard was true then Bell's father "Toby" is now runner-up. I will investigate further.

New Runner-up: Alpenblick's Cody Boy

I'm writing it as soon as I hear it!

Blue Dawn Kennel · Post by **Blue Dawn Kennel** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 7:03 pm

That would be a for sure disqualification if the owner of the winner, runner up dog was judging. Should of never been drawn. Someone screwed up. Congrats to Helmut & Toby.

Did anyone hear who the runner up in the AA was behind Zip??? I haven't heard anything about that.

snips · Post by **snips** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 7:12 pm

So, are you saying the judge was judging his own dog and put it up??????????

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 7:18 pm

Thats what it sounds like to me, but no one would do that.

Ezzy

remmy · Post by **remmy** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 7:31 pm

Apparently, Peter never watched his own dog...the other judge followed it the entire time. Does that make it right? I don't know.

Congrats out to Helmut and Toby! Father and daughter duo!

original mngsp · Post by **original mngsp** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 7:47 pm

no it doesnt make it right. Man, anyone with half a brain should know thier own dog cant run under thier judgement. Frickin' knucklehead!!

CherrystoneWeims · Post by **CherrystoneWeims** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 9:35 pm

Congrats, Remmy, Bell, and Matt!

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 9:45 pm

Who even accepted the entry?

Ezzy

Hotpepper · Post by **Hotpepper** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 7:56 am

I as there and saw the stupid thing and it was stupid. Just got home alst night and I am exhausted today. I am not sure they named a Runner Up. The other was definitely D Qed though.

Pepper

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 10:55 am

Although I was not there, and do not know the facts, I emailed Don Kidd, the President of the NGSPA, concerning what happened at Savannah River. Don sent me the following statement, which I post so that people know that immediate action was taken. To understand who the actors are that Mr. Kidd is speaking of, Tom Oswald is a long time trialer and the Secretary of the Savannah River Championship. Bernie Matthys, for those who are not aware, is the owner of the American Field Publishing Company, which publishes the American Field, and which also sanctions all trials that are run under its umbrella, including the NGSPA trials. To correct this mistake, the calls Mr. Kidd relates, occurred yesterday between Mr. Kidd in Arkansas, Mr. Matthys in Illinois, and Mr. Oswald in Georgia.

Tom Oswald called me on yesterday, 1/16/08, and informed me that Tom Copens had been judging and that a dog owned by him & handled by Rich Barber had been named runner-up. I told him that this was not ethical and that I would verify this through Bernie Matthys at the American Field.

On the morning of 1/16/08, I attempted to contact Bernie who did not come to his office early that morning. Subsequently, I called Tom back on his cell phone and told him that this would not fly, that Copen's dog could not be placed, and that, if at all possible, another runner-up should be named.

Since I was in south Arkansas working dogs and bird hunting, I managed to get in touch with Bernie at about 11:00 a.m. He stated that there was no American Field rule on this since common sense dictated that you do not judge your own dog.

On 1/16/08, shortly after this I called Tom Oswald and informed him of the statement of Bernie Matthys.

Later on 1/16/08, a telephone call was again made to Tom Oswald's cell telephone with a request that he called me.

At the conclusion of the running on 1/16/08, Tom called me and we discussed this situation at length. Shortly thereafter, he contacted me again by telephone and advised that Copens and the other judge had named another dog runner-up.

Subsequently, Ray Dohse called me about this situation. He was informed that the NGSPA was aware of the situation, that corrective action was being taken. and a mistake had been made but, from what Tom Oswald told me, that it was an honest mistake. He was assured the situation would be corrected.

While I regret this situation happening, it is my belief that the NGSPA tried to take appropriate action when learning of the situation.

I think everyone would agree that this should not have happened. However, when it did and was discovered, the Field Trial Committee immediately reported itself to the very highest levels of the NGSPA and AF organizations, and immediate action was taken to effect a cure that would be fair to all.

Hotpepper · Post by **Hotpepper** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 12:00 pm

It is so unfortunate when this type of thing happens, it reflects so badly on so many different and innocent people.

The worst part of it is at this point the fires are being fanned for the whole thing to be thrown out and if that occurs, the Savannah River Championship will cease to be in the future. I do not want this to occur and hope to be able to get the whole thing settled.

This is a nice championship and had 26 open shooting dogs in the stake, and there were 3 to 6 covey finds in each brace and maybe each dog. The place just holds birds.

Pepper

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 1:37 pm

I sure hope that this works out for the best. We can't afford to be losing trials...and certainly not by "blue on blue".

Regards, Greg J.

PntrRookie · Post by **PntrRookie** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 1:38 pm

Wagon...thx for the update straight from the "horses mouth."

Pepper...since you were there, can you tell us how (and PLEASE correct me if I describe this incorrectly) two dogs are brought to the line with the two judges there (and assuming a gallery) and NO one thought to stop this brace? Or at least without the judge's dog? Even at some of the "lower" levels of trialing, if we have a dog that is owned or co-owned by a judge, it is not able to run on the field the judging is judging. And do the judges not get together after a nice brace (or two) and discuss the dogs they want to use for placements? If so I would think this judge would not allow his own dog to be used, even if he did not judge it? I can totally understand how the conversation went, but if it was mine, I would hopefully tell my judging partner..."No, I do not care how good her/she ran, I would not feel comfortable using him/her."

Thanks for the clarification in advance.

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 2:30 pm

I was not there, so what I am about to say is guesswork based on how Championships work.

The AF/NGSPA system is different from the AKC in that written entry forms are not generally required prior to the drawing, and entries can and generally are submitted right up to the moment the drawing starts to take place. The person in charge of the drawing usually reads off the names of the dogs entered and asks if there are any that have been missed, or if there are more that should be included. This drawing is very public, most of the handlers and owners are right there for it.

Usually, the dog's call name and the handler's name(s) are all that are submitted. Entry forms are done after the fact. One of the reasons this can happen in this way, is that for the most part, the competitors know each other and each other's dogs. Most of the dogs are also pro dogs, and the pros know what can be done and what can't. If you do something like that you are looking right at your competitors across the table, they know you and know what just happened, and you will look across the table at them next month, and the month after, and next year too. It is Championship caliber competition and these are Championship caliber competitors, and in the NGSPA there is alot of collegiality not animosity. It is an "honor" system.

When a new dog comes in, the Field Trial secretary will not immediately know, under this honor system, who the owner is, or even the registered name of the dog. Just the call name and handler.

This was definitely a mistake by the particular judge. We expect judges to know the rules better than most. Hopefully, it will not be repeated.

The alternative to what the outcome was here, was what Jerry mentioned, throwing out the whole stake, or even the whole Championship. Which would not be fair to the other competitors who came, successfully ran their dogs, and particularly to those who won.

Hotpepper · Post by **Hotpepper** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 3:25 pm

For a lack of a better way of saying it, I do not know the answer. Very few riders and the stake, once they are going and the judges are attentative. The pro's in pro stakes just run dogs. It is not like a nationals in Kansas or Boonville, pro's run dogs.

That is what happened here.

I will not try to go into a lot of detail as that will just get blown way out of proportion. The right thing has happened at this point and the people at the top will do the right thing.

Pepper

msrkennels · Post by **msrkennels** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 7:11 pm

This all happened because there is no rule agains't this ,but as stated I was contacted about this iccident after the fact and informed the concerned party to contact Don. The pointer judges says this is not uncommon in pointer trials, is not a issue but I and Don felt this doesn't look good even tho mr Coppens is a up standing judge and has nice dogs. This would not have happened if the concerned party had conacted Don before this dog was run when he didn't like the answer he was given from the secretary so I feel this has been blown way out of preportion.

PntrRookie · Post by **PntrRookie** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 8:25 am

Thanks guys...you all have helped us all understand (in a very professional way)! Sounds like the majority are on board and understand what happened and will let the outcome stand...thanks again and best of luck!

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 9:35 am

You have to hope this is a case where there would not have to be a rule written covering a situation where common sense would provide the answer.

The outcome was handled about as good as possible I would think.

Ezzy

wannabe · Post by **wannabe** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 11:13 am

msrkennels wrote:The pointer judges says this is not uncommon in pointer trials.

The pointer boys judge and place their own dogs in Championship stakes?

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 3:00 pm

I believe that he meant that the situation comes up and is taken care of properly.

"Oh, dang! I didn't know that my pro was going to run my dog in this stake too. Shoot, I guess I'll have to scratch the dog."

Greg J.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 5:29 pm

Don't you think the handler knows who is judging when he places the entries?

Ezzy

wannabe · Post by **wannabe** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 7:19 pm

ezzy333 wrote:Don't you think the handler knows who is judging when he places the entries?

Ezzy

He knew, he just thought he was going to get away with it.

I can't wait until I see Barber this Spring.

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 7:42 pm

ezzy333 wrote:Don't you think the handler knows who is judging when he places the entries?

Ezzy

A trial just about every weekend, 4 or 5 stakes at the trial, 10 or more dogs on the string, drawings by call name only, possibly confusion with an AKC "bookend" trial, possibly a judge substitution/swap, a hang-over, etc.

Sure, I can understand it happening.

Anyone that thinks that they're going to get away with it would need the grey matter examined. It's way too competitive out there.

TrueBlu Shorthairs · Post by **TrueBlu Shorthairs** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 8:20 am

I'd be upset if my pro didn't know which dog was mine.

original mngsp · Post by **original mngsp** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 8:37 am

I'd be upset if my pro didn't know which dog was mine

Been there, doesnt really inspire a high level of confidence.

ddshine · Post by **ddshine** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 6:02 pm

you cannot tell that not one person at the trial did not know that the dog was pete's. the dog should have never been entered by barber. I am sorry but it was wrong of him to weven try to run this dog. it is not like he did not know what he was doing. Even though he probably did not do this in order to win or make it so that he could win he is not that type of competitor. but someone should have recognized that a mistake was made and fixed it before that dog even was brought to the starting line. Especially a trial where there is not that many entries to begin with I do not know how this was not caught. everyone there knows pete and his dog. It is over now left only to these online junkie3s to discuss and complain about it. simply said mistakes are made. Correct actions by the NGSPA were made so just let it be.

TrueBlu Shorthairs · Post by **TrueBlu Shorthairs** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 5:17 pm

Don't get exactly what you are saying ddshine, do you put the blame on Rich or on no one, just calling it a mistake? I know that if my pro brought my own dogs to the line, I could sure recognize that he was mine immediately. Seems the blame lies with the pro and the owner, not with the committee or the chairman, particularly in a NGSPA event where complete entry forms are not the norm.

ddshine · Post by **ddshine** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 7:23 pm

What I am saying is that both of them had to have known. I really cannot believe that someone else did not realize this when the dog was brought o the line. I know that AF events only use call names when they are drawing but why would pete of even told rich to put his dog in. They might not have even been present during the drawing. Who knows what "really" happened and who cares the NGSPA will deal with it. At least another RU was named and let it be a lesson learned.