L.C. Smith Rare Double Guns
- Ryman Gun Dog
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Dave's Spooky Grouse
Ladies & Gentlemen,
Most L.C. Smith collectors/owners believe that the rare Elsie double guns are the most sought after and highest priced L.C. Smith weapons.
The graded weapons holding the highest value. For the most part this holds true. However there are 5-6 rare Elsie weapons that most collector/owners
are seldom aware of, and few have ever seen. Most people believe the L.C. Smith double guns was produced on only 2 different type frames the Regular Frame (R)
and the Feather Weight frame (FW). However the Elsie was also produced on the very rare (C) Frame. Brophy believed the C may have identified the combination engineering, of the C Frame double gun. In reality there were 6 C Frame double guns produced, all were 12 Gauge double guns, 4 were Field Grade guns and 2 were Specialty Grade double guns. One Field Grade had 26" BBls and one had 28" BBls the 4 other guns all had BBLs 30" - 32" in length. The C Frame engineering was actually
the combination of the front end of the FW Frame with the lock Plate and rear of the R Frame, and you have the rare and unusual "C" Frame Elsie. The Serial Numbers of these guns run from 126,972 to 126,977. The CE126,976 frame was found by Bill Brophy in a scrap box , ready for the alchemist to convert back to base metal,
so only 5 of the C Frame guns were ever finished and shipped. The C Frame Speciality Grade weapons were all CEOBV, meaning C Frame, Auto- Ejector, Hunter One Trigger, Beavertail, Ventilated Rib, double guns, they both had 32" BBLs. There were 2, C Frame field Grade guns produced, with Auto-ejectors, and 2 with extractors.
The destroyed 126,976 gun was an auto-ejector gun. No where in the Parts and Specificatons L.C. Smith book are these weapons documented, they are that rare.
So the next time you are gun shopping and you see an old Specility Grade Elsie or even an old Field Grade, you might want to check out the SN closely, nobody knows exactly where these rare guns really are, the shipping records only show the businesses that Hunter Arms shipped too, individual ownership was never recorded.
5 individual owners are sitting on a fortune and have no idea what they actually own. We can only hope the guns still exist, each is identified with original Hunter Arms, L.C. Smith SN. I would love to own one of the 2 Speciality Grade 12 gauge double guns, built on the rare Hunter Arms "C" Frame. Such a gun would need a display safe all of its won. Happy hunting everybody!
RGD/Dave
Most L.C. Smith collectors/owners believe that the rare Elsie double guns are the most sought after and highest priced L.C. Smith weapons.
The graded weapons holding the highest value. For the most part this holds true. However there are 5-6 rare Elsie weapons that most collector/owners
are seldom aware of, and few have ever seen. Most people believe the L.C. Smith double guns was produced on only 2 different type frames the Regular Frame (R)
and the Feather Weight frame (FW). However the Elsie was also produced on the very rare (C) Frame. Brophy believed the C may have identified the combination engineering, of the C Frame double gun. In reality there were 6 C Frame double guns produced, all were 12 Gauge double guns, 4 were Field Grade guns and 2 were Specialty Grade double guns. One Field Grade had 26" BBls and one had 28" BBls the 4 other guns all had BBLs 30" - 32" in length. The C Frame engineering was actually
the combination of the front end of the FW Frame with the lock Plate and rear of the R Frame, and you have the rare and unusual "C" Frame Elsie. The Serial Numbers of these guns run from 126,972 to 126,977. The CE126,976 frame was found by Bill Brophy in a scrap box , ready for the alchemist to convert back to base metal,
so only 5 of the C Frame guns were ever finished and shipped. The C Frame Speciality Grade weapons were all CEOBV, meaning C Frame, Auto- Ejector, Hunter One Trigger, Beavertail, Ventilated Rib, double guns, they both had 32" BBLs. There were 2, C Frame field Grade guns produced, with Auto-ejectors, and 2 with extractors.
The destroyed 126,976 gun was an auto-ejector gun. No where in the Parts and Specificatons L.C. Smith book are these weapons documented, they are that rare.
So the next time you are gun shopping and you see an old Specility Grade Elsie or even an old Field Grade, you might want to check out the SN closely, nobody knows exactly where these rare guns really are, the shipping records only show the businesses that Hunter Arms shipped too, individual ownership was never recorded.
5 individual owners are sitting on a fortune and have no idea what they actually own. We can only hope the guns still exist, each is identified with original Hunter Arms, L.C. Smith SN. I would love to own one of the 2 Speciality Grade 12 gauge double guns, built on the rare Hunter Arms "C" Frame. Such a gun would need a display safe all of its won. Happy hunting everybody!
RGD/Dave
Re: L.C. Smith Rare Double Guns
That's interesting. Many years ago I knew a guy that lived on the North Shore of Flathead lake that collected L.C. Smiths. You went into his house and the walls were covered with them. He must have had at least 40+ of them. Wouldn't suprize me if he had one of them.
I pity the man that has never been loved by a dog!
- Ryman Gun Dog
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Re: L.C. Smith Rare Double Guns
Don,
40 is a good start, I believe that particular gentlemen pased away a few years back, I might even own one of his good pre 13 Elsies.
RGD/Dave
1920 Custom Ordered L.C. Smith 20 Gauge, with (SST) original Lard/Hunter One Trigger, and Beavertail Fore Stock, French Walnut wood thru out.
A Serious little 20 Gauge Bird Gun, with 26" BBls, weighing 6.0 LBS, Choked IC/IC from Hunter Arms in 1920.
40 is a good start, I believe that particular gentlemen pased away a few years back, I might even own one of his good pre 13 Elsies.
RGD/Dave
1920 Custom Ordered L.C. Smith 20 Gauge, with (SST) original Lard/Hunter One Trigger, and Beavertail Fore Stock, French Walnut wood thru out.
A Serious little 20 Gauge Bird Gun, with 26" BBls, weighing 6.0 LBS, Choked IC/IC from Hunter Arms in 1920.
Re: L.C. Smith Rare Double Guns
That is a beautiful gun. I'm not a 20ga fan but I could get used to that!
I pity the man that has never been loved by a dog!
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Re: L.C. Smith Rare Double Guns
That's a sweet old bird gun there!
- Ryman Gun Dog
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Re: L.C. Smith Rare Double Guns
Live4point,
Thank you sir very much, I though this little bird gun was worth adding to my Elsie collection, when I shouldered her I definitely knew I was keeping her.
RGD/Dave
Thank you sir very much, I though this little bird gun was worth adding to my Elsie collection, when I shouldered her I definitely knew I was keeping her.
RGD/Dave
Re: L.C. Smith Rare Double Guns
Alas, the 1913 Trap grade I have, at 8 lbs 1.3 oz, is too heavy for an upland gun - not to mention the shortcomings of 32" barrels choked full/full. Does a number on clays though.
Re: L.C. Smith Rare Double Guns
That's intresting. I forget where but we were talking about trap and someone mentioned that SxS's are never seen on the trap range. Not very often any way. I didn't shoot much trap but I always shot it with a SxS field gun. Now you come up with this one that that appears to have been made just for that. Either that or maybe an old pass shooting gun. You got a photo of that sucker?nj gsp wrote:Alas, the 1913 Trap grade I have, at 8 lbs 1.3 oz, is too heavy for an upland gun - not to mention the shortcomings of 32" barrels choked full/full. Does a number on clays though.
I pity the man that has never been loved by a dog!
Re: L.C. Smith Rare Double Guns
Sure - I'll take some pics later today. When I used to take it to the trap range, all the old timers told me I shouldn't be using it because the tang was too thin and it would crack. Dusted some clays with it though.
- Ryman Gun Dog
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Re: L.C. Smith Rare Double Guns
Don F,
In the 20's thru the 50's trap was shot with SxS double guns and some of the greatest shooters in history used L.C. Smith Trap Grade and Pigeon Grade double guns,
in fact Anne Oakley won the British World Championship with her Elsie SXS, 16 Gauge double gun, outshooting every great shooter of her time. Frank Butler, her husband Special ordered Anne a L.C. Smith SxS Double gun with her likeness engraved on both side plates, her Elsie SXS Double gun is considered almost priceless today.
RGD/Dave
My 1900 Silver Breech L.C. Smith Pigeon Grade SXS double gun with pre-production Beavertail Forestock, made for competition Pigeon & Trap shooting, only three of these guns were ever produced, two for the Hunter Arms professional deminstration shooter, and one for my Great Grandfather who was a silent partner with John Hunter Sr.
President and CEO of Hunter Arms. Walt Schiessl has the other two in his Personal L.C. Smith Collection out in Ca.
One of my Hunter Arms L.C. Smith Collection, and my Great Grandfathers & Grandfathers favorite bird gun. They both carried this big gun like I carry my 16 Gauge Grouse guns, course they were both very big men.
In the 20's thru the 50's trap was shot with SxS double guns and some of the greatest shooters in history used L.C. Smith Trap Grade and Pigeon Grade double guns,
in fact Anne Oakley won the British World Championship with her Elsie SXS, 16 Gauge double gun, outshooting every great shooter of her time. Frank Butler, her husband Special ordered Anne a L.C. Smith SxS Double gun with her likeness engraved on both side plates, her Elsie SXS Double gun is considered almost priceless today.
RGD/Dave
My 1900 Silver Breech L.C. Smith Pigeon Grade SXS double gun with pre-production Beavertail Forestock, made for competition Pigeon & Trap shooting, only three of these guns were ever produced, two for the Hunter Arms professional deminstration shooter, and one for my Great Grandfather who was a silent partner with John Hunter Sr.
President and CEO of Hunter Arms. Walt Schiessl has the other two in his Personal L.C. Smith Collection out in Ca.
One of my Hunter Arms L.C. Smith Collection, and my Great Grandfathers & Grandfathers favorite bird gun. They both carried this big gun like I carry my 16 Gauge Grouse guns, course they were both very big men.
Re: L.C. Smith Rare Double Guns
OK here they are - pictures of my 1913 L. C. Smith Trap Grade. Somebody at some point refinished the stock and put a rubber recoil pad on it. I wonder if the checkering is worn off, or sanded off? I suspect the latter...
Looks like it's been apart before - some screw head damage:
Close up of side lock engraving:
My 3 favorites: 1927 A.H. Fox "A" grade 16 gauge, 2007 Browning 525 Field 16 Gauge, 1913 Elsie Trap:
Looks like it's been apart before - some screw head damage:
Close up of side lock engraving:
My 3 favorites: 1927 A.H. Fox "A" grade 16 gauge, 2007 Browning 525 Field 16 Gauge, 1913 Elsie Trap:
- Ryman Gun Dog
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Re: L.C. Smith Rare Double Guns
nj GSP,
I keep looking at your beautiful trap grade Elsie Double gun an the guy who removed the side locks from that gun without the proper knowledge, and proper tools
should be admonished for what he did to that fantastic old Walnut stock.
RGD/Dave
I keep looking at your beautiful trap grade Elsie Double gun an the guy who removed the side locks from that gun without the proper knowledge, and proper tools
should be admonished for what he did to that fantastic old Walnut stock.
RGD/Dave
- nikegundog
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Re: L.C. Smith Rare Double Guns
That checking could be put back on the stock, and most guys would never know it was removed. Those screws on the other hand would be harder to deal with.Ryman Gun Dog wrote:nj GSP,
I keep looking at your beautiful trap grade Elsie Double gun an the guy who removed the side locks from that gun without the proper knowledge, and proper tools
should be admonished for what he did to that fantastic old Walnut stock.
RGD/Dave
Re: L.C. Smith Rare Double Guns
I've been told the screw heads are fixable, but it takes a competent (and patient) gunsmith to do it because the metal has to be gently and carefully peened back to where it belongs, then polished and engraving re-touched as needed. Perhaps one day I may take it to someone to get it cleaned up (Any suggestions?). I don't know what it would cost, or even if it's worth it because I'm not sure what the gun is worth: maybe $2000-2500 in the shape it's in? But regardless I wouldn't part with it - it's a beautiful work of American art and I am proud to have it.
Re: L.C. Smith Rare Double Guns
A good smith can easily repair those screws or make new ones.
- Ryman Gun Dog
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Re: L.C. Smith Rare Double Guns
Gentlemen,
You are missing the point, its not that the gun can not be repaired, the butcher job should not have been done in the 1st place.
Its the fit up, wood to breach, where someone pried the side lock plate, damaging the wood to metal fit up, that is going to take some work to make perfect again.
RGD/Dave
You are missing the point, its not that the gun can not be repaired, the butcher job should not have been done in the 1st place.
Its the fit up, wood to breach, where someone pried the side lock plate, damaging the wood to metal fit up, that is going to take some work to make perfect again.
RGD/Dave
Re: L.C. Smith Rare Double Guns
It's been in the family since the 30' so it was done before then. Nobody in the family would have attempted to take it apart. So if it's any consolation the person who took this gun apart wrong (or tried to) is probably dead. Yes, it's a shame and I understand that. I don't know who sanded the checkering off either but I think my dad put the butt pad on it. He would not have done that unless the original was either missing or damaged. I don't know if the original would have been a plate or a pad.
I would like to fix it up again someday and would appreciate some suggestions on who to take it to - thanks!
I would like to fix it up again someday and would appreciate some suggestions on who to take it to - thanks!
- Ryman Gun Dog
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Re: L.C. Smith Rare Double Guns
nj gsp
Tell you what sometime drive across Rt #6 to our log cabin in Potter/Tioga we will set around the big rock fire pit, sip a few and I will take a good look at your Elsie and
make a couple suggestions for ya. It's a real nice old gun and should be restored properly.
RGD/Dave
Tell you what sometime drive across Rt #6 to our log cabin in Potter/Tioga we will set around the big rock fire pit, sip a few and I will take a good look at your Elsie and
make a couple suggestions for ya. It's a real nice old gun and should be restored properly.
RGD/Dave
Last edited by Ryman Gun Dog on Wed Dec 07, 2011 11:55 am, edited 2 times in total.
Re: L.C. Smith Rare Double Guns
Thanks - sounds like fun!Ryman Gun Dog wrote:nj gsp
Tell you want sometime drive across Rt #6 to our log cabin in Potter/Tioga we will set around the big rock fire pit, sip a few and I will take a good look at your Elsie and
make a couple suggestions for ya. It a real nice old gun and should be restored properly.
RGD/Dave
- pinebrookkennel
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Re: L.C. Smith Rare Double Guns
Ryman
P.m. sent !!!
P.m. sent !!!
Make no distinction between practice and combat !
Miyamoto Musashi.
Knowledge, once gained can never be stolen or repossessed.
Jered
Miyamoto Musashi.
Knowledge, once gained can never be stolen or repossessed.
Jered
Re: L.C. Smith Rare Double Guns
Al Bisen's son runs the shop in Spokane now. I looked at it a while back and there is a shotgun they restored, Parker if I remember right, I wouldn't hesitate one second. I think it was someone on this site that knew the Bisen's.nj gsp wrote:It's been in the family since the 30' so it was done before then. Nobody in the family would have attempted to take it apart. So if it's any consolation the person who took this gun apart wrong (or tried to) is probably dead. Yes, it's a shame and I understand that. I don't know who sanded the checkering off either but I think my dad put the butt pad on it. He would not have done that unless the original was either missing or damaged. I don't know if the original would have been a plate or a pad.
I would like to fix it up again someday and would appreciate some suggestions on who to take it to - thanks!
I pity the man that has never been loved by a dog!
Re: L.C. Smith Rare Double Guns
An LC is a firearm not a weapon. Just saying
- Ryman Gun Dog
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Re: L.C. Smith Rare Double Guns
Marine,
All fire arms are weapons.
RGD/Dave
All fire arms are weapons.
RGD/Dave
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Re: L.C. Smith Rare Double Guns
Ryman Gun Dog wrote:Marine,
All fire arms are weapons.
RGD/Dave
Some do not believe that a sporting arm should be termed a weapon....I believe the Old Cowboy was one who said that very thing quite recently on another forum, to you.
There, you had no response.
Lot of different points involved.
- Ryman Gun Dog
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Re: L.C. Smith Rare Double Guns
Mountaineer,
Some people are wrong, if Don said that, he was wrong also. However please believe what you like. Every Rifle, Shotgun and Hand gun are both tools and weapons (Arms) that keep our country free, they can also be used in sport hunting or target shooting.
RGD/Dave
Some people are wrong, if Don said that, he was wrong also. However please believe what you like. Every Rifle, Shotgun and Hand gun are both tools and weapons (Arms) that keep our country free, they can also be used in sport hunting or target shooting.
RGD/Dave
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Re: L.C. Smith Rare Double Guns
Yes, point proved.Ryman Gun Dog wrote:Mountaineer, Some people are wrong...
I suppose that in the right hands even pheasant feather could be a weapon.
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Re: L.C. Smith Rare Double Guns
Dave,
It seems like one would be more enclined to walk clear trails and stay out of the thick woods with nice looking SxSs like those. It'd be pretty tough to keep them looking very nice in some of the places we find good concentrations of grouse.
It seems like one would be more enclined to walk clear trails and stay out of the thick woods with nice looking SxSs like those. It'd be pretty tough to keep them looking very nice in some of the places we find good concentrations of grouse.
Mark
Willows Back In The Saddle
Tall Pines Hits The Spot
Tall Pines Queen Eleanor
Bo Dixie's Rocky
TALL PINES MOONBEAM
______________________________________________________
If it ain't broke - fix it
Willows Back In The Saddle
Tall Pines Hits The Spot
Tall Pines Queen Eleanor
Bo Dixie's Rocky
TALL PINES MOONBEAM
______________________________________________________
If it ain't broke - fix it
- Ryman Gun Dog
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Re: L.C. Smith Rare Double Guns
Big Shooter,
My dogs work the Grouse woods as I walk the logging trails, when they set the bird for gunning I ease into the thick stuff, flush the Grouse and down the bird, brush busting is the dogs part of the job, mine is to be a good woodsman & approach and shoot the Grouse down as my dog stands point. I demand a lot of my compaion Grouse dogs, they are the hunters and must work with me.
RGD/Dave
Grouse hunting done properly is a Gentlemens ethical way of life, accomplished with fine dogs and double guns.
My Grandfather and Father Grouse hunted in formal tie and sporting clothes, a mountain way of life like no other.
Pine Creek Ryman Daisy on Grouse point, setting a spooky mature Grouse hidden behind the log almost 30 yard out in front.
In this particular set up there were two Grouse presenting a fine true double gunning experience.
Along with some incredible dog work.
Harold & Ken approach Pine Creek Penny our Gordon Grouse Dog on point, while Daisy our Ryman Setter backs.
My dogs work the Grouse woods as I walk the logging trails, when they set the bird for gunning I ease into the thick stuff, flush the Grouse and down the bird, brush busting is the dogs part of the job, mine is to be a good woodsman & approach and shoot the Grouse down as my dog stands point. I demand a lot of my compaion Grouse dogs, they are the hunters and must work with me.
RGD/Dave
Grouse hunting done properly is a Gentlemens ethical way of life, accomplished with fine dogs and double guns.
My Grandfather and Father Grouse hunted in formal tie and sporting clothes, a mountain way of life like no other.
Pine Creek Ryman Daisy on Grouse point, setting a spooky mature Grouse hidden behind the log almost 30 yard out in front.
In this particular set up there were two Grouse presenting a fine true double gunning experience.
Along with some incredible dog work.
Harold & Ken approach Pine Creek Penny our Gordon Grouse Dog on point, while Daisy our Ryman Setter backs.
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Re: L.C. Smith Rare Double Guns
All you need is an electric four wheeler with beverages of your choosing & a chauffeur!
Mark
Willows Back In The Saddle
Tall Pines Hits The Spot
Tall Pines Queen Eleanor
Bo Dixie's Rocky
TALL PINES MOONBEAM
______________________________________________________
If it ain't broke - fix it
Willows Back In The Saddle
Tall Pines Hits The Spot
Tall Pines Queen Eleanor
Bo Dixie's Rocky
TALL PINES MOONBEAM
______________________________________________________
If it ain't broke - fix it
- Ryman Gun Dog
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Re: L.C. Smith Rare Double Guns
Big Shooter,
Most of our logging trails are no where near as large as this particular tram trail, we are very lucky to have the large logging road
that runs over the top of the mountains for almost 18 miles.
RGD/Dave
Most however are more the size that Sampson our SM is standing on in the picture below.
Most of our logging trails are no where near as large as this particular tram trail, we are very lucky to have the large logging road
that runs over the top of the mountains for almost 18 miles.
RGD/Dave
Most however are more the size that Sampson our SM is standing on in the picture below.
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Re: L.C. Smith Rare Double Guns
GDF Members:
Back on Feb 17, 2010 Ryman Gun Dog posted about L.C. Smith Rare Double Guns. http://gundogforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31578
I have an LCSmith SxS I'm trying to pin down. It's a 1901 12ga Grad 00 LCSmith shotgun. The particular gun I have was engraved with flowery letters saying "Marks Special" on the left and right side of the sidelock area. Has Ryman or anybody else heard of a gun like this? Apparently there were very few made. See the second to last paragraph of this post: https://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthr ... mber=72162
Back on Feb 17, 2010 Ryman Gun Dog posted about L.C. Smith Rare Double Guns. http://gundogforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31578
I have an LCSmith SxS I'm trying to pin down. It's a 1901 12ga Grad 00 LCSmith shotgun. The particular gun I have was engraved with flowery letters saying "Marks Special" on the left and right side of the sidelock area. Has Ryman or anybody else heard of a gun like this? Apparently there were very few made. See the second to last paragraph of this post: https://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthr ... mber=72162
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Re: L.C. Smith Rare Double Guns
I'm trying to find the history on a L.C. Smith SxS gun 1901 Grade 00. It's engraved "Marks Special" in flowery letters on both left and right side. I've been able to find only one tangential comment about it being one of very few made. https://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthr ... mber=72167
You sound like you're familiar with the LC Smith guns. Have you ever heard of a "Marks Special" version?
You sound like you're familiar with the LC Smith guns. Have you ever heard of a "Marks Special" version?