Why Have Pointers Lost Their Status

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GnM
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Why Have Pointers Lost Their Status

Post by GnM » Mon Apr 13, 2020 8:08 pm

So I posted a topic on wither to spay or not spay. A couple of responses indicated English Pointers do not command the money they used to, or I guess you could say as popular. So my question, what if anything, has happened to the Pointer? I thought at one time they were THE possibly along with setters were THE bird dog to have. I am sure this topic will bring a lot of comments but I am just curious. I have had two GSP's which I liked, but I have always thought Pointers looked a bit more, dare I say, graceful.

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Re: Why Have Pointers Lost Their Status

Post by birddogger2 » Mon Apr 13, 2020 10:20 pm

I have had pointers all my life and will never have another breed. I love what they do and how they do it... but I grew up with them.

Pointers have indeed changed over the decades, in terms of their temperament, Whele and his Elhew dogs saw to that.

But some things have not changed. Pointers ain't pretty to look at, when compared to, say. English setters. They have the same kind of "beauty" one can appreciate in body builders, because when they are in condition, their bodies are hard, with bulging, rippling muscles, nose to tail. They are athletes.

Pointers are bird hunting and bird finding machines that live and breathe to find birds. Most everything else is less important.

They have a "take no prisoners" attitude about them when hunting, for the most part. They tend to assault a field rather than hunt it out.

Pointers are, for the most part, a specialist in upland game. They are not as "versatile" as many of the continental breeds.

Pointers are most often found where there is room for them to run, because that is what they do best and they are generallyready willing and able to

Many pointers can be somewhat "aloof" in demeanor. Several of my dogs were close with and bonded to family members, but really did not particularly care about the rest of the world. Not mean or nasty, just didn't care. Most all were quite tolerant of others but a few could be nasty if not left alone by strangers.

For many years were the premier bird dog, when hunters needed multiple bird dogs. They were the number one bird dog breed for many years. The fact that so many pointers were being bred by so many breeders led to a situation where they were relatively less expensive than many of the less popular breeds.

The upland hunting scene has changed, dramatically over the decades. The number of places holding wild birds has decreased dramatically and that has drastically reduced upland bird hunter numbers and the need for pure bird dogs. Most folks who occasionally hunt a variety of birds, upland and waterfowl, are often better served with a Lab. which can do double duty in the field and be a fine home companion also.

Ironically,the pointer's strengths, which place it unquestionably first in the field trial universe, also work to its detriment. When the occasional hunter and full time family man sees or hears what a pointer does at a horseback field trial they are put off by the fact that it is waaaay more dog than they need and may even feel that it is more dog than they can handle. To be truthful, this CAN be the case. A pointer out of hard charging parentage may not be the ideal first bird dog for someone new to the bird dog training scene.

Many folks today simply do not have the upland hunting opportunities which their parents or grandparents had.

RayG

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Re: Why Have Pointers Lost Their Status

Post by STOCKB53 » Tue Apr 14, 2020 4:35 am

Very well said. There vary degrees of the pointer activity. A novice hunter if directly put to a breeder of foot hunting pointers will be quite pleased with their pointer. I done my research when I first had interest in pointers to find that breeder. I eventually evolved into field trial pointers though I will always keep a foot hunting pointer in my kennel. The continental breeds has a better market than pointers for the reason you stated in your post. People like choices and each to his own, but if they ever see the grace and style of a English Pointer on point it is almost as good as (pardon the emphasis ) an orgasm.


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Re: Why Have Pointers Lost Their Status

Post by GnM » Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:14 am

Thanks RayG, that was well said. I was on my own when I decided I wanted to hunt quail behind a dog. I didn't know anything about dogs nor did I know anybody who hunted with dogs. I remember seeing a picture of a Pointer and thinking that is the dog I want. Unfortunately, I didn't know any breeders and settled for a GSP from a backyard breeder, as I said, I knew nothing about dogs. I read every training book I could, bought quail, and trained her myself. She turned out to be a pretty good dog, for my young standards. A few years after I ended up moving from AZ to NM and purchased another GSP. Fast forward 8 or so years and both my GSP's are now gone and I thought about hanging up my hat with dogs and quail hunting. A few months later I find myself full filling my dream of owning not one, but two Pointers.

As I mentioned, have always lived in AZ or NM and both states have big country available, so I am excited to get these dogs trained and watch them hunt these Scaled and Gambles quail. I know in my part of the world hunters love chasing Mearn's quail, but I will tell you the other two species are more of a challenge in my book.

Thanks again for those who have responded.

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Re: Why Have Pointers Lost Their Status

Post by asc » Tue Apr 14, 2020 8:04 am

RayG covered it well.

My 1st EP pup was a Miller dog, what a wild ride she was and at 12 years old/blind still is..

I also have 2 Miller/Elhew males, they were a little easier to work.
Enjoy your time with your hot rods.

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Re: Why Have Pointers Lost Their Status

Post by averageguy » Tue Apr 14, 2020 9:30 am

Loss of wild birds and access to land across the eastern half of the US plays a part in it. People in those areas are forced to hunt released birds. The fields used in many commercial released bird operations do not favor a big a running dog. Related to this the wild rooster pheasant remains the most available and accessible for those that travel to hunt wild birds and Roosters are a bird which most often does not benefit from a big running dog, (especially in the late season cattails).

Accessing wild bobwhite quail on public lands is a dwindling precious commodity which is suffering from overuse. The Western Quail species are available but a long ways to travel for alot of hunters, the huge country is intimidating to navigate in when starting out and accommodations are sparse in many areas . Using precious vacation days to travel long distances for modest results turns alot of folks towards the released bird operations or pheasants much closer to home instead. Which also points them towards a different breed of dog.

The game of FTing is expensive and hard for new hunters to break into, its ranks are dwindling because of it.

The Versatile breeds have become much more widely known and their breeding has improved at the same time. Most states still have some Dove and Waterfowl hunting opportunities even if they have no wild quail or pheasant. The GSP breed has surged in both quality and availability. NAVHDA has provided a club and family oriented training outlet which is largely missing in the EP ranks.

Well Bred and Trained Versatile breed dogs are hard to beat when hunting pheasants both before and after the shot, throw in some dove and waterfowl hunting and it points to them all the more (see how I worked in that pun).

I see that combination of factors very much at work in the observed trend.

I love the EPs and hunt with some good ones annually. I cannot own all the breeds of dogs which interest me so I latch on to quality folks with quality dogs in other breeds and get some variety ...

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Re: Why Have Pointers Lost Their Status

Post by mask » Tue Apr 14, 2020 10:25 am

If you ignore the myths applied to the pointer and keep an open mind you will find they are nice dogs. I have owned AA pointers for close to 70 years and if there were dogs I liked better for the hunting I do I would have them. I love a good bird dog no matter the breed so to each his own. You still have to be smarter than the dog :D

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Re: Why Have Pointers Lost Their Status

Post by birddogger2 » Tue Apr 14, 2020 10:51 am

STOCKB53 wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 4:35 am
Very well said. There vary degrees of the pointer activity. A novice hunter if directly put to a breeder of foot hunting pointers will be quite pleased with their pointer. I done my research when I first had interest in pointers to find that breeder. I eventually evolved into field trial pointers though I will always keep a foot hunting pointer in my kennel. The continental breeds has a better market than pointers for the reason you stated in your post. People like choices and each to his own, but if they ever see the grace and style of a English Pointer on point it is almost as good as (pardon the emphasis ) an orgasm.


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Stock -

To be clear, I have always hunted over pointers that had the desire and ability to range out to the horizon and for the most part, I hunted on relatively small chunks of land in one of the most densely populated states in the Union...New Jersey... with roads and highways...EVERYWHERE. The dogs learned that if they wanted to wrap their gums around a bird, they had to include me in the hunt... so they did. They would range out, but if they did not find a bird, they would circle back to hook up again. Keep in mind that I started hunting over these kinds of dogs looooong before there were things like e-collars and GPS. I got it done and ...knock wood... in over sixty years of hunting behind big going pointers, I ain't lost one permanently...YET.
I have had to come back the next day to collect a dog , laying on my coat, after chasing a deer a couple or three times and a few times a dog took a few hours to make it back around to me or the vehicle, but so far, so good.

Also, I am a small time amateur field trialer, so I will foot hunt on a 40-60 acre preserve field with the very same dogs I run in front of a horse at a trial. The game is different and they figure it out, because, again, they will do what it takes to get a bird in their mouth.

A part of it is their training, which has to include teaching them to suck it in when the cover gets thick, or when the shotgun comes out and to circle back, if necessary to keep in touch when I am quiet. A good dog will have an "elastic" range, because that is what it takes sometimes. A dog that has the desire and ability to hit the horizon...needs that "elasticity" added to their skill set.

I have zero interest in migratory waterfowl or doves and I only "hunt" woodcock to train the dogs, because I don't care for the taste and won't kill what I won't eat. I also have no problem with a dog that will "point dead" and not retrieve all that well. When I cannot bend over to pick up a bird I have shot, it is time for me to hang up the gun. I know that the retrieve is a big deal for some folks. Not so much for me. I am a lousy shot anyway. it is much more important for me to have a dog that"hunts dead", and mine all know that job well.

Soooo, for me, I do not have a lot of use for the versatility of a versatile breed dog. I've seen plenty that I like to watch and a more than a few that I would feed, but I am comfortable with what I have.

Different strokes for different folks.

RayG

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Re: Why Have Pointers Lost Their Status

Post by bonasa » Tue Apr 14, 2020 11:32 am

I cannot speak for the rest of the country, but. Pointers and to a degree setters have not lost their status with the devoted grouse/woodcock hunters, sporting camps, guide strings and coverdog or NBHA foot trailers in the northeast and lake states. There is a reason these groups choose pointers and setters that are of FDSB registration and competitive blood lines, where studs are proven and countless females are evaluated.

A rebuttal to the question " Why have pointers lost their status?" More fittingly would be, " Why has the backyard bred brit, gsp or lab gained traction with local preserves and weekend sports?"

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Re: Why Have Pointers Lost Their Status

Post by ckirsch » Tue Apr 14, 2020 11:44 am

I got started in pointers fifteen years ago, after having some versatiles that I enjoyed, and I haven't looked back. My biggest surprise has been the retrieving, including in water - all four of those I've had thus far have been pretty solid in that regard, good enough for a VC and two other UT's. I have an eight-month pup now with a pedigree chock-full of AA dogs - Blackhawk and Black Ice as grandsires, Snakefoot, Guard Rail, Fibber, all within three generations - and he is the most talented and determined retriever of any pup I've had, of any breed. I'm fascinated by that as most of his immediate ancestors obviously weren't bred with retrieving in mind, yet the trait is still there in spades. The breeder who got me started told me that if I introduced retrieving early, and cultivated it, I'd have good retrievers. That's turned out to be the case for me.

Living in western South Dakota, I don't hunt quail, but my longtails have done a nice job on both pheasants and prairie grouse. They'll run big on sharptails but learn to tighten up to twenty yards or so when in frozen cattails after pheasants. They're also very enthused to swim out for any ducks I might occasionally knock down. I wouldn't rate them high for late-season waterfowling, but any shortfall there is more than compensated for me by their heat tolerance in early season grouse expeditions. They're far from the aloof kennel dogs they are often reputed to - mine have been good house and yard companions with personalities that made them fun to have around. My only complaint might be that they are not particularly effective security dogs - they welcome most strangers, probably thinking that they might be there to take them hunting. The new pup might prove to be an exception in that regard - not that he's aggressive, just a little more likely thus far to let me know if anything appears amiss to him.

Best thing about pointers is the complete lack of show breeding. Those few that are shown are pretty much a completely separate breed. Very few folks keep pointers as pets, either, so chances are that most pointers are bred with the goal of being competent in the field.

I love the muscularity, athleticism, and intensity. Finally, that long tail poking out of the CRP is often the only thing I can see of my dogs on point.

Don't buy into the warm-weather-only, quail-only, kennel dog-only, point dead-only myths. Pointers are capable of much more than they are typically given credit for.

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Re: Why Have Pointers Lost Their Status

Post by birdogg42 » Tue Apr 14, 2020 12:50 pm

"Best thing about pointers is the complete lack of show breeding. Those few that are shown are pretty much a completely separate breed. Very few folks keep pointers as pets, either, so chances are that most pointers are bred with the goal of being competent in the field.

I love the muscularity, athleticism, and intensity. Finally, that long tail poking out of the CRP is often the only thing I can see of my dogs on point.

Don't buy into the warm-weather-only, quail-only, kennel dog-only, point dead-only myths. Pointers are capable of much more than they are typically given credit for"

VERY WELL SAID ALSO!

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Re: Why Have Pointers Lost Their Status

Post by averageguy » Tue Apr 14, 2020 1:21 pm

Dare I add, EPs are alot more dog than most can handle.

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Re: Why Have Pointers Lost Their Status

Post by STOCKB53 » Tue Apr 14, 2020 1:26 pm

RayG: you wrote my bird dog life to a tee, I don’t have nearly the years that you have with hunting behind a bird dog, but I too experienced putting my coat out for a lost dog. I am late to the upland game and trialing game NBHA with 35 years. Wish I was introduced to bird dogs earlier in life. They have been very rewarding in my life even though they are a money pit.


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Re: Why Have Pointers Lost Their Status

Post by ckirsch » Tue Apr 14, 2020 1:42 pm

"Dare I add, EPs are alot more dog than most can handle"

I'd add that to the myth list.

My first EP scored a 198 Pz 1 UT at eighteen months, and earned his VC a year later. I was a first-time handler for both those tests. Before the UT, I used a frozen road-killed coot for training water work because I couldn't find any ducks to purchase. Six chukar and a young pigeon I snagged from under a bridge. I lived five hours from my chapter so never trained with them. Dog and I never saw the test grounds until the morning of the test. He was the only one of five UT dogs to score a Pz 1 that day.

Same dog finished fourth in the first 32-dog NSTRA trial we entered a few months after the Invitational. He was the most compliant dog I've ever worked with.

If you research NAVHDA test results, pointers actually do about as well as any breed. The reason few are run is probably due to all of the misinformation circulated about them. Think about it; do trialers prefer dogs that are difficult to work with, or easy to work with?

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Re: Why Have Pointers Lost Their Status

Post by birddogger2 » Tue Apr 14, 2020 2:06 pm

To add to what ckirsch wrote:

A number of years ago, NSTRA trials were recognized under the FDSB /American Field umbrella and their results were reported in the American Field magazine.

In an effort to respond to one of those "which is better" questions I tabulated all of the NSTRA trials reported in one year and then to confirm, i did the same for the following year. these trials took place all across the US. There were four breeds of dogs that were heavily represented in NSTRA trials at that time. They were the Pointer, the E. Setter, the GSP and the Brittany. There were a smattering of other breeds but no significant participation.

The conduct of NSTRA trials is very carefully controlled and they go to considerable lengths to assure that each brace of dogs has as close to the same level of opportunity as any other. Those trials are not my cup of tea, but it is obvious that they bend over backwards to be fair and even handed.

I have long since lost the tabulations, but I can say that for two years running, the four breeds of dogs mentioned above were awarded placements in almost exactly the same percentages, when the numbers were corrected for the level of participation of each breed.

Honestly, I was surprised(and pleased) at the fact that the different breeds were pretty much equal in terms of performance, as measured by placements awarded.

A good dog is a good dog.

RayG

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Re: Why Have Pointers Lost Their Status

Post by Sharon » Tue Apr 14, 2020 2:42 pm

Now that is very interesting info. I for one always thought a pointer was more than I could handle. Sounds like I was wrong ; I should have given it a go. Too late now. :)
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Re: Why Have Pointers Lost Their Status

Post by averageguy » Tue Apr 14, 2020 3:33 pm

Ckirsch,

A Sincere, Congratulations on what you have accomplished in the NAVHDA test system with your EPs. Well Done. Sounds like your dogs are dogs I would easily appreciate and enjoy.

However much of your two posts illustrate how Breed discussions too often go. Many are so over the top enthusiastic in their support of their chosen breeds that they loose the ability to bring balance to the discussion.

In 50 years of bird hunting I estimate I have walked behind and shot wild birds over more than 50 EPs. I owned one and he was a nice one. That dog excelled at hunting, finding and handling the wild birds we hunted, did a credible job of hunting dead and retrieving to hand, he would swim for a bird when needed, but on the whole he was nothing remotely approaching what all of my GWPs did/do on the recovery/retrieving end of the job.

I have sufficient experience with EPs to have an informed opinion on the breed. Otherwise I would have stayed silent.

You can label my last post a myth but you might want to check out Ray G's first post as his last paragraph said the exact same thing as I did. This from a lifelong dyed in the wool EP guy. :D

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Re: Why Have Pointers Lost Their Status

Post by ckirsch » Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:25 pm

Average Guy;

Thank you for sharing your experience and qualifications. For the record, I'll be sixty this fall, which puts my years of bird hunting roughly equal to yours. Like you, I've hunted behind more than a few dogs during that time, in a state highly regarded for it's excellent upland hunting.

Contrary to your insinuation, my pointers have satisfied me far beyond testing, which is merely something I participate in outside of hunting seasons. I certainly hope the others in this thread don't consider me "over the top" to the point that I'm unable to bring "balance" to the discussion. I certainly apologize if that's the case.

I invite you to take another run at my first post and hopefully you'll notice that I mentioned I've enjoyed owning several versatile breeds, but after experiencing my first longtail, have developed a preference for them. It's clear that my experience doesn't necessarily mirror yours, but I'm not sure how that makes me over the top or lacking in balance. My pointers aren't perfect, but they do a better job of making me smile in the field than the other breeds who preceded them.

It's odd that you condemn me for stating my reasons for enjoying pointers, then describe why they are not "remotely close" to your GWP's on recovery /retrieving end of the jobs. At the very least, I was controlled and balanced enough to refrain from denigrating other breeds. To be honest, from my end it was your contributions that illustrate how breed discussions too often go. There's typically someone who unable to sit back and listen to others make favorable comments on a breed other than their own, feels obligated to make a negative contribution, after which things go south.

I, too, have sufficient experience with pointers to have an informed opinion, but I'm sorry now that I didn't just ignore your dig about the breed being difficult to train or handle, as no one here is interested in listening to you and I go back and forth.

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Re: Why Have Pointers Lost Their Status

Post by averageguy » Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:34 pm

Ckirsch,

What you call "denigrating" I call stating a fact. What you call "mis-information" is in my view an informed opinion which differs in some respects from your own.

I give the EPs their rightful due and did so in this thread. They are the best at what they do best. Which is not everything.

Posting that EPs are equal to other Versatile breeds in NAVHDA for that scope of work invites an informed response and you got one.

You not liking an informed opinion different than your own does not render it a "myth" or false.

It's telling that when I note a broadly known tradeoff characteristic of the EP breed it is a "dig" but when Ray G posts the same you ignore it...

Word to the wise for anyone considering the EP Breed. There are tradeoffs, as there are with every other breed in existence. Some can admit to them, some cannot.

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Re: Why Have Pointers Lost Their Status

Post by mask » Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:56 pm

Average, just curious, what do you hunt and how often?

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Re: Why Have Pointers Lost Their Status

Post by ckirsch » Tue Apr 14, 2020 7:06 pm

AG;

Check the number of pointers entered in NAVHDA tests over the past number of years, then calculate the percentage of those dogs passing the tests. You'll find that pointers, while entered far less frequently, typically score pretty close to what the established "versatile" breeds do. That's what I stated, and it's a fact, not a myth.

I believe it's you who struggles to accept an informed opinion differing from your own. I mentioned some shortcomings I've found with pointers; cold weather water retrieves and lack of protective instinct. They aren't perfect, but the criticisms you've made about the breed are simply not what I've experienced. Mine have been exceptionally easy to train, and their retrieving is far better than originally advertised. I mentioned the NAVHDA test scores because on those days, and in the estimation of experienced judges, my lowly pointers retrieved well enough to pass the organization's most advanced tests. I don't think I've been to a test yet where another handler commented on their not realizing pointers would swim or retrieve. There are clearly some unfortunate myths about pointers. RayG posted the same, but you ignored him. I'm sorry, but owning one pointer thirty years ago fails to qualify you as an authority on the breed. My experience has been much different than yours. It's sad that you're so threatened by that.

Nowhere in my posts did I criticize another breed. Can you say the same?

Run your breed of choice. I'll run mine. I promise not to jump into GWP threads to offer my limited expertise. Maybe you could try that on pointer threads. Focus on what you like about your dogs, rather than your perceived shortcomings in ours. You obviously have a wealth of experience with bird dogs. Perhaps you could find more positive ways in which to share it.

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Re: Why Have Pointers Lost Their Status

Post by averageguy » Tue Apr 14, 2020 7:16 pm

mask wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:56 pm
Average, just curious, what do you hunt and how often?
With my dogs, I start September 1st on Doves (3 states), then teal (2 states), then prairie grouse (2 states), then early waterfowl, Chukar and Huns, then bobwhite and pheasants open in home state and surrounding states, more waterfowl as migration/weather provides good opportunities.

My dog handled Ruffed Grouse, Sharptails, Prairie Chickens, Sage Grouse, Chukars, Huns, Bobwhites (3 states), Pheasants (4 states), waterfowl (3 states), couple of deer recoveries and a little bit of fur work he took on his own along the way, this past season.

September - March Snow Geese, 5 states this season. 4 days a week on average.

I do some big game hunting as well and will be hunting Turkeys next week, would be already if not for this virus preventing my plans to hunt out of state.

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Re: Why Have Pointers Lost Their Status

Post by averageguy » Tue Apr 14, 2020 7:21 pm

Ckirsch,

My experience with EPs is not "limited". As I said I have hunted wild birds over more than 50 EPs including pro strings in Texas, South Dakota and Kansas recently.

Let it die if you have it in you to do so.

I am not betting on it.

FWIW, when I posted that EPs are often more dog than most can handle, I do not mean that as a slight to the breed, but rather a statement of fact and testament to what is also their greatest strength.
Last edited by averageguy on Tue Apr 14, 2020 7:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Why Have Pointers Lost Their Status

Post by birddogger2 » Tue Apr 14, 2020 7:45 pm

Guys -

It is truly unfortunate that one's enthusiasm for their breed of choice can sometimes lead to disparagement of another's breed of choice. We do not need that here. Not trying to be internet police...just asking that we respect each other's choices, because the choices we make tend to define the things we value. Not everyone makes the same choices becasue they have different needs, wants and values.

I will repeat: A good dog is a good dog.

I will also paraphrase a statement attributed to Delmar Smith....

When you skin them out, all dogs are pretty much the same.

RayG

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