Puppy & Derby points counting towards AKC FC
Re: Puppy & Derby points counting towards AKC FC
Shags, would you run in puppy or derby with nothing counting towards your FC or AFC?
- Brazosvalleyvizslas
- Rank: 5X Champion
- Posts: 1340
- Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2012 9:20 am
- Location: Soon2be, Texas
Re: Puppy & Derby points counting towards AKC FC
I must have missed where Adam suggested a "finishing" line. Look at the titles on his dog and I don't think he even knows what that term means.
Re: Puppy & Derby points counting towards AKC FC
Adam wrote:Shags, would you run in puppy or derby with nothing counting towards your FC or AFC?
I know I am not being adrressed Adam but I have a hard time not speaking out of my turn....WHY waste $$$$$$ This can be done at a training session for free 5 minutes around the corner....why drive 2+hours to say go to a show match!!!! Do people really do that? Oops!! maybe they do.
Re: Puppy & Derby points counting towards AKC FC
Good question- so why do people run in puppy and derby in the first place? Haha when you figure out why people drive 2 hours for a puppy match let me know
- ultracarry
- GDF Junkie
- Posts: 2602
- Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:30 pm
- Location: Yucaipa, ca
Re: Puppy & Derby points counting towards AKC FC
Train? What's that?
- Brazosvalleyvizslas
- Rank: 5X Champion
- Posts: 1340
- Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2012 9:20 am
- Location: Soon2be, Texas
Re: Puppy & Derby points counting towards AKC FC
He meant, hire a Pro.
Re: Puppy & Derby points counting towards AKC FC
Yep. And have done so...and finished several FC and AFC titles without juvey points.Adam wrote:Shags, would you run in puppy or derby with nothing counting towards your FC or AFC?
Puppy/derby is a ton of fun, but the proof of a dog is in the broke stakes. How many Derby Wonders are never seen or heard of again once they age out?
Re: Puppy & Derby points counting towards AKC FC
I can only speak for myself but see nothing wrong with it.....I have not gone to a trial for JUST a puppy or derby. Either running another dog or Dennis judging volenteering ... We never got any juvenile points on our first FC. She got all her points in adult stakes. Ran our male in pup/derby because we where there.....WHY NOT right?...Took him right out of derby at 19months and bombproofedhim with all the derby dogs he ran with( the opportunist in me) making sure he was ready)...entered him the following week in AGD four point ret major....He won it.IT worked... Our third(raven) ran her while we were finishing our male...never got her puppy points but was a broke derby dog and got those points. I think she has enough points now if you look at her record to be a champ a few times over. Does that make her title less desirable because she got two derby points to get there? Isnt that way of thinking a little bit off.
I am not trying to throw stones but making a point.... Alot of very talented dogs/handers have gotten there puppy derby points and there dogs are amazing....I would not discredit a dog/ or handler for not passing up opportunity.....I do believe from what I over hear that some people finish dogs in the ring by creating their own majors with less desirable dogs entered. Some of them even being dogs that havent got a shot of getting a placement....Is this true? I think I would feel worse about that, than accruing some juvenile points.
Adam once again read above posts.....I GIVE YOU CREDIT FOR ALL THAT YOU DO TO PROVE YOUR DOGS ABILITIES!!!! have a great day!
I am not trying to throw stones but making a point.... Alot of very talented dogs/handers have gotten there puppy derby points and there dogs are amazing....I would not discredit a dog/ or handler for not passing up opportunity.....I do believe from what I over hear that some people finish dogs in the ring by creating their own majors with less desirable dogs entered. Some of them even being dogs that havent got a shot of getting a placement....Is this true? I think I would feel worse about that, than accruing some juvenile points.
Adam once again read above posts.....I GIVE YOU CREDIT FOR ALL THAT YOU DO TO PROVE YOUR DOGS ABILITIES!!!! have a great day!
- Brazosvalleyvizslas
- Rank: 5X Champion
- Posts: 1340
- Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2012 9:20 am
- Location: Soon2be, Texas
Re: Puppy & Derby points counting towards AKC FC
Same thing happens in trials. Al we can do is try to better the breed and have fun with "mans best friend". Sorry ladies.
Re: Puppy & Derby points counting towards AKC FC
Thanks but this has nothing to do with my dogs and what I do with them again I DO NOT want to remove puppy and derby points from counting towards a FC/AFC I was just giving an option if for some reason they ever decided to not count.
Re: Puppy & Derby points counting towards AKC FC
heck in AFTCA trials you can be a champion without ever running in an adult stake.
Re: Puppy & Derby points counting towards AKC FC
Saddle wrote:heck in AFTCA trials you can be a champion without ever running in an adult stake.
Pssst....that's supposed to be a secret.
Re: Puppy & Derby points counting towards AKC FC
Curious which AFTCA juvie stake(s) nets the victor a championship...?? Certainly there are some open derby championships that'll carry the champion title for the winner...just can't come up with an AFTCA event that does that off top of my head.heck in AFTCA trials you can be a champion without ever running in an adult stake.
Anyway, now that i'm in the thread...AKC points to puppies/derbies - No way, utter silliness. AF derbies qualifying for about any championship with a derby placement...makes no sense to me. Personally, with respect to AF championships, I think qualifying criteria should be entirely at the discretion of the host club.
Re: Puppy & Derby points counting towards AKC FC
Been waitin' on you......DGFavor wrote:Curious which AFTCA juvie stake(s) nets the victor a championship...?? Certainly there are some open derby championships that'll carry the champion title for the winner...just can't come up with an AFTCA event that does that off top of my head.heck in AFTCA trials you can be a champion without ever running in an adult stake.
Anyway, now that i'm in the thread...AKC points to puppies/derbies - No way, utter silliness. AF derbies qualifying for about any championship with a derby placement...makes no sense to me. Personally, with respect to AF championships, I think qualifying criteria should be entirely at the discretion of the host club.
- Brazosvalleyvizslas
- Rank: 5X Champion
- Posts: 1340
- Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2012 9:20 am
- Location: Soon2be, Texas
Re: Puppy & Derby points counting towards AKC FC
So maybe instead of putting age limits on puppy/ derby, we should allow any age dog to compete for the right to move on and compete in broke stakes. Do away with the puppy/ derby names and call it beginner stakes or we could make the puppy/ derby points only count toward AFC and not carry over to FC? We do need to consider inviting new people into the sport or it will die.
Re: Puppy & Derby points counting towards AKC FC
The best way to encourage new people is to be kind and understanding of their limited experience.
- Brazosvalleyvizslas
- Rank: 5X Champion
- Posts: 1340
- Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2012 9:20 am
- Location: Soon2be, Texas
Re: Puppy & Derby points counting towards AKC FC
Sharon, PM sent. You and I have a different opinion on what "finishing" a dog means. Get your mind out of the gutter, dear. It means that the dog finishes it's title. Anyone who's shown a dog knows that. I was not being "mean" to anyone. I consider Tyler (ultra) a friend and I have handled his dog, fed her and I love her but when he makes it sound like those of u's who put our energy into more then just an FC aren't worthy, I will voice my opinion. I feel that as a friend I have that right to do so.
Me and him will share a few beers over some tri tip down the road at some trial and there won't be any fists thrown. Thanks for the nasty PM though.
Me and him will share a few beers over some tri tip down the road at some trial and there won't be any fists thrown. Thanks for the nasty PM though.
Re: Puppy & Derby points counting towards AKC FC
deleted - not helpful... SH
Last edited by Sharon on Fri Jan 25, 2013 8:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.
- Brazosvalleyvizslas
- Rank: 5X Champion
- Posts: 1340
- Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2012 9:20 am
- Location: Soon2be, Texas
Re: Puppy & Derby points counting towards AKC FC
Since you won't clarify your PM I can only imagine where you were going but "finishing" a dogs CH is the standard term.
Re: Puppy & Derby points counting towards AKC FC
I misspoke Doug I should have said American field championships and not AFTCA.
Happy Jack won 3 derby championships in a month as a derby a couple years ago.
Happy Jack won 3 derby championships in a month as a derby a couple years ago.
- AZ Brittany Guy
- Rank: 5X Champion
- Posts: 1417
- Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2005 8:00 pm
- Location: Arizona
Re: Puppy & Derby points counting towards AKC FC
When I see the top Brittany and GSP pros quit running Juvenal's is when I reconsider the value of it. Derbys have been around since the establishment of the Am Field.
- doco
- Rank: Champion
- Posts: 332
- Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 7:38 am
- Location: Massena, NY - on the Northermost US/Canadian Border
Re: Puppy & Derby points counting towards AKC FC
Raven, thanks for the props. It's a shame that a good thread can sour so quickly.
DG, I usually am right beside you in your thinking. However, the Juvie points are a big deal and IMO should be included. I would have finished both my dogs without them, but it certainly made it easier since I had to travel 6 - 8 hours for each trial. I don't have the luxury of being able to attend a trial every weekend. I can't take the time off because I am self employed and would love to just run 1 hour AF stakes but there is nothing close. If the AF required 2 wins to be a CH, I bet that many folks would balk and scream. So IMO a few points from juvie stakes in AKC does not make a dog a CH. I've run with and judged longtails and watched 20-25 blow up or go birdless still only have a few dogs that were worthy of a 1st. One that didn't place was a 7x CH and it did absolutely nothing for me and it didn't place That Day!
For us East Coasters, it' friggin tough to finish a dog with 10 points. Our AKC weekend stakes are usually 120 -130 dogs entered. Most of our wins are majors and many east coast dogs don't get finished. Then, you compete against a field of dogs where there are a handful every trial that win consistently and you have to train hard to beat them. With the limited number of grounds out here, now you have the disability of competing against dogs that train consistently on their home turf and the trials are held there every weekend. HUGE disadvantage! This is of no disrespect to them, because if I had the opportunity to train on them I would as well. I like to see wins on different sets of grounds. That to me defines a great dog!
IMO the way it stand right now works well for us on the East Coast and selfishly, it works well for me. Heck, I wish I could just run Puppy and Derby cause I know I'm the best Puppy/Derby handler out there, my dogs make me look great, and when they screw up, it's because I don't know chit and its only Puppy/Derby so who cares! There is way too much pressure handling a broke dog.
I hope this thread gets back to center and the trash talking and personal attacks slow down.
Puppy and Derby Points to Everyone and good luck with the rest.
DG, I usually am right beside you in your thinking. However, the Juvie points are a big deal and IMO should be included. I would have finished both my dogs without them, but it certainly made it easier since I had to travel 6 - 8 hours for each trial. I don't have the luxury of being able to attend a trial every weekend. I can't take the time off because I am self employed and would love to just run 1 hour AF stakes but there is nothing close. If the AF required 2 wins to be a CH, I bet that many folks would balk and scream. So IMO a few points from juvie stakes in AKC does not make a dog a CH. I've run with and judged longtails and watched 20-25 blow up or go birdless still only have a few dogs that were worthy of a 1st. One that didn't place was a 7x CH and it did absolutely nothing for me and it didn't place That Day!
For us East Coasters, it' friggin tough to finish a dog with 10 points. Our AKC weekend stakes are usually 120 -130 dogs entered. Most of our wins are majors and many east coast dogs don't get finished. Then, you compete against a field of dogs where there are a handful every trial that win consistently and you have to train hard to beat them. With the limited number of grounds out here, now you have the disability of competing against dogs that train consistently on their home turf and the trials are held there every weekend. HUGE disadvantage! This is of no disrespect to them, because if I had the opportunity to train on them I would as well. I like to see wins on different sets of grounds. That to me defines a great dog!
IMO the way it stand right now works well for us on the East Coast and selfishly, it works well for me. Heck, I wish I could just run Puppy and Derby cause I know I'm the best Puppy/Derby handler out there, my dogs make me look great, and when they screw up, it's because I don't know chit and its only Puppy/Derby so who cares! There is way too much pressure handling a broke dog.
I hope this thread gets back to center and the trash talking and personal attacks slow down.
Puppy and Derby Points to Everyone and good luck with the rest.
Re: Puppy & Derby points counting towards AKC FC
Doco, People have been warned and it will get back on track or it will be closed. It is a good subject to discuss.
Ezzy
Ezzy
Re: Puppy & Derby points counting towards AKC FC
I'm not always clear on the FC (American) requirements. Do you need to win a Championship to be a FC or just accumulate points - not saying that is easily done.
Found it Myself:
http://classic.akc.org/events/FCtitle.cfm ( No CKC trials for pointing breeds in ON - just field tests (3) and American Field Trials.)
Found it Myself:
http://classic.akc.org/events/FCtitle.cfm ( No CKC trials for pointing breeds in ON - just field tests (3) and American Field Trials.)
Last edited by Sharon on Fri Jan 25, 2013 10:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- Brazosvalleyvizslas
- Rank: 5X Champion
- Posts: 1340
- Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2012 9:20 am
- Location: Soon2be, Texas
Re: Puppy & Derby points counting towards AKC FC
I sincerely apologize for my part in hijacking the thread. I never meant to offend anyone and I will try not to do so in the future.
Re: Puppy & Derby points counting towards AKC FC
Takes a big man to apologize and an even bigger woman as we are never wrong. JUST KIDDING!
I'm sorry for my part in causing static.
I think we have cabin fever up here. -17 again and still can't get the dogs out.
( At least Winnipeg is putting Pittsburgh in their place. )
I'm sorry for my part in causing static.
I think we have cabin fever up here. -17 again and still can't get the dogs out.
( At least Winnipeg is putting Pittsburgh in their place. )
Re: Puppy & Derby points counting towards AKC FC
I started this thread and kind of just sat back to see the different views from different parts of the country. I can see where people that live along way from where trials are held needing the puppy and derby points. I just think 40%(puppy and derby points) is a little too much(IMO). In SH title a JH pass and 4 SH passes is only 20% of the title. In MH title 1 SH pass and 5 MH passes is only 16 2/3 % of the title. People say the wouldn't spend the money to run puppy and derby if they didn't get points, but those same juvies after they get their points are still run in those stakes even thought they already have their juvie points( some people just like to run their juvies -- I also see a lot of pros running pointed juvies on their strings--so it is costing the owners even more to run the dog even though they don't get more points towards their FC titled dogs). The futurities I'm guessing are the incentive to keep running the young dogs. I would like to see is 1 puppy point and 1 derby point go towards their FCs(that's only 20% of the title and not 40% of the title). It would still get the new person interested in running---I think a lot of new people just enjoy getting a ribbon of ANY color (1st, 2nd, 3rd, or 4th). Most of the future field trialers in our area seem to start out as hunt testers and move up to trials to see how their dogs will do there. I AM enjoying to see the different responses.
- AZ Brittany Guy
- Rank: 5X Champion
- Posts: 1417
- Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2005 8:00 pm
- Location: Arizona
Re: Puppy & Derby points counting towards AKC FC
Its a good thread...you know what opinions are like......everybodys got one.deseeker wrote:I started this thread and kind of just sat back to see the different views from different parts of the country. I can see where people that live along way from where trials are held needing the puppy and derby points. I just think 40%(puppy and derby points) is a little too much(IMO). In SH title a JH pass and 4 SH passes is only 20% of the title. In MH title 1 SH pass and 5 MH passes is only 16 2/3 % of the title. People say the wouldn't spend the money to run puppy and derby if they didn't get points, but those same juvies after they get their points are still run in those stakes even thought they already have their juvie points( some people just like to run their juvies -- I also see a lot of pros running pointed juvies on their strings--so it is costing the owners even more to run the dog even though they don't get more points towards their FC titled dogs). The futurities I'm guessing are the incentive to keep running the young dogs. I would like to see is 1 puppy point and 1 derby point go towards their FCs(that's only 20% of the title and not 40% of the title). It would still get the new person interested in running---I think a lot of new people just enjoy getting a ribbon of ANY color (1st, 2nd, 3rd, or 4th). Most of the future field trialers in our area seem to start out as hunt testers and move up to trials to see how their dogs will do there. I AM enjoying to see the different responses.
Re: Puppy & Derby points counting towards AKC FC
Psssst....that too is supposed to be secret.Saddle wrote:I misspoke Doug I should have said American field championships and not AFTCA.
Happy Jack won 3 derby championships in a month as a derby a couple years ago.
- Hotpepper
- Rank: 5X Champion
- Posts: 1490
- Joined: Wed Apr 12, 2006 10:30 am
- Location: Southern Indiana
Re: Puppy & Derby points counting towards AKC FC
The beginning fo this was the key word "JUST" 6 broke dog points. How many dogs have u finished and in the gsp world they would include 4 retrieving points. The old sarobably needying that is if u need puppy/dereby to finish, probably won't finish. A needless suggestion from someone who has been chasin them for 25 yrs.
Pepper
Pepper
Re: Puppy & Derby points counting towards AKC FC
You oldtimers seem to be a little selfish, how do you expect to attract new people into the sport? Maybe you "owners" dont remember your first puppy or derby win because you paid a pro to get it for ya. The rest of us got it the hard way, GOOD OLD FASHION WORK
Last edited by myerstenn on Sat Jan 26, 2013 10:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
- ultracarry
- GDF Junkie
- Posts: 2602
- Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:30 pm
- Location: Yucaipa, ca
Re: Puppy & Derby points counting towards AKC FC
Got mine the first trial..... By myself, the hard way lol.
-
- Rank: Master Hunter
- Posts: 283
- Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 11:36 am
- Location: Nebraska
Re: Puppy & Derby points counting towards AKC FC
I am one of those old timers. I remember most of wins and losses over the last 30 plus years. I have a pro currently doing my training and running my dog in open stakes. I have had several FC over the years. I work my own dogs and put their puppy/derby points before they get to see a pro. I have finished dogs myself. But, when I have a dog that can go to the next level and it is beyond my experience I let a pro do the work. I am all for having derby'puppy points. It is great for new people coming into the sport. Not all dogs mature the same. I have had dogs I have finished or pro finished for me that never got their puppy or derby points. The current NFC never got his puppy or derby points. Puppy and or Derby points are very important to this sport. In brings in new people to sport and helps bring the dog along and hopefully eventually get the coveted title of FC. I really enjoy going to field trials and meeting new people all the time and see some great dogs running.myerstenn wrote:You oldtimers seem to be a little selfish, how do you expect to attract new people into the sport? Maybe you "owners" dont remember your first puppy or derby win because you paid a pro to get it for ya. The rest of us got it the hard way, GOOD OLD FASHION WORK
I guess some people think they know everything and knock others if they do not agree. I am still learning and for the most part I still going to a Field trial and looking at the next dog I get, will be another FC.
- Ricky Ticky Shorthairs
- Rank: 5X Champion
- Posts: 1117
- Joined: Tue Nov 27, 2007 9:14 am
- Location: Central Iowa
Re: Puppy & Derby points counting towards AKC FC
Well said Brooks.
-
- Rank: Senior Hunter
- Posts: 196
- Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 9:43 am
- Location: Spokane washington
Re: Puppy & Derby points counting towards AKC FC
An interesting discussion.....I am not sure where i fall. I kinda agree with puppy at least as there is no bird work in puppy stakes......
Having said that. I would not be sitting here about 4 months from my first field trial, trying to lay out a training program for my britt, watching the evan graham video in the background as we speak.....mentally trying to figure out how to finish out my dog so we can compete in Gundog stakes in a couple months. Just voted vice president of our local club, if not for the fact that some club members managed to convince me to try running my dog in a derby last fall, my wife and i watching dogs run behind horses all day....me running in a 16 dog open derby stake, having a blast, getting alot of tips from the more knowledgable people....thanking everyone for the fun day....then finding out that we actually placed.......Then going to the last two local trials again running in derby. More talking with all the people.......the hook setting deeper and deeper into both of us.
Now staring out the window right now looking at my own Tennessee walker that we bought last month, thinking endlessly about this coming spring and how much fun we are going to have and how much work i have to try to get my dog ready.....
If it was not for derby stakes i would surmise that non of this would have happened....Would i have been motivated to finish my dog out to the level needed if all i did was watch a couple broke stakes and realize my dog isn't even close....or enter a broke stake just to have my dog ordered up for not being there.....
I know of at least one other person locally who went through basically the same thing i did last year and is gearing up for it again this year. That is how you get more people involved.
What it really boils down its all about the people having fun with each other and there dogs. Something i think that people lose track of sometimes.....
Maybe i just look at it differently, i certainly would love to put a AFC or FC on my dog someday. But i have no real allusions of grandjour and seeing the competition to try in win that elusive britt major and not being willing to travel all over to chase it my hopes might be slim indeed. But i am going to go run anyways because i love watching my dog work, i love watching the other dogs work and i love hanging around talking dogs with all the great dog people that i have met so far....Is there a better way to spend a weekend outside of hunting.......
Of course my next dog/breed next time around in a couple years is definitely going to be geared towards being competitive in trials as well as hunting instead of just looking for a hunting dog.....That is a sure thing....
All because of Derby Stakes.......
Having said that. I would not be sitting here about 4 months from my first field trial, trying to lay out a training program for my britt, watching the evan graham video in the background as we speak.....mentally trying to figure out how to finish out my dog so we can compete in Gundog stakes in a couple months. Just voted vice president of our local club, if not for the fact that some club members managed to convince me to try running my dog in a derby last fall, my wife and i watching dogs run behind horses all day....me running in a 16 dog open derby stake, having a blast, getting alot of tips from the more knowledgable people....thanking everyone for the fun day....then finding out that we actually placed.......Then going to the last two local trials again running in derby. More talking with all the people.......the hook setting deeper and deeper into both of us.
Now staring out the window right now looking at my own Tennessee walker that we bought last month, thinking endlessly about this coming spring and how much fun we are going to have and how much work i have to try to get my dog ready.....
If it was not for derby stakes i would surmise that non of this would have happened....Would i have been motivated to finish my dog out to the level needed if all i did was watch a couple broke stakes and realize my dog isn't even close....or enter a broke stake just to have my dog ordered up for not being there.....
I know of at least one other person locally who went through basically the same thing i did last year and is gearing up for it again this year. That is how you get more people involved.
What it really boils down its all about the people having fun with each other and there dogs. Something i think that people lose track of sometimes.....
Maybe i just look at it differently, i certainly would love to put a AFC or FC on my dog someday. But i have no real allusions of grandjour and seeing the competition to try in win that elusive britt major and not being willing to travel all over to chase it my hopes might be slim indeed. But i am going to go run anyways because i love watching my dog work, i love watching the other dogs work and i love hanging around talking dogs with all the great dog people that i have met so far....Is there a better way to spend a weekend outside of hunting.......
Of course my next dog/breed next time around in a couple years is definitely going to be geared towards being competitive in trials as well as hunting instead of just looking for a hunting dog.....That is a sure thing....
All because of Derby Stakes.......
- AZ Brittany Guy
- Rank: 5X Champion
- Posts: 1417
- Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2005 8:00 pm
- Location: Arizona
Re: Puppy & Derby points counting towards AKC FC
Bravo Brooks!Ricky Ticky Shorthairs wrote:Well said Brooks.
- doco
- Rank: Champion
- Posts: 332
- Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 7:38 am
- Location: Massena, NY - on the Northermost US/Canadian Border
Re: Puppy & Derby points counting towards AKC FC
Bravo orbird......only one thing missing, a horse for your wife!
Re: Puppy & Derby points counting towards AKC FC
Because it is FUN. Good social time, enjoy the out of doors, learn from more mature dogs' work, opportunity to stake your pup out with other dogs making a racket, opportunity to introduce your pup to horses if you are a walking trialer and you know the judge will be on horseback sooner or later etc......... We need more FUN and less point intensity at that level. jmoAdam wrote:Good question- so why do people run in puppy and derby in the first place? Haha when you figure out why people drive 2 hours for a puppy match let me know
Re: Puppy & Derby points counting towards AKC FC
We've never gone out of our way to run puppies. We ran them when we were there to run an older, broke dog at the trial or when I was judging other stakes at a trial, or we were supporting the clubs we belong to. And we don't run TONS of puppy (I don't really care about the points). NoJenny ran once last season, Moo ran 3 times and Forrest maybe 4 times. They're all done with puppy. Not sure if they'll run any derby. We'll discuss with their trainer when the time comes.
Re: Puppy & Derby points counting towards AKC FC
I have one dog. At this time with the slacker dogs that reside at my house we have three. As they depart, they will be replaced with more bird dogs. Momma just isn't aware of it yet. I enjoy the puppy trials and am driving next weekend two hours to catch an AF trial in DE. It will be my daughters first trial that she will run the dog. When I started my last dog, going to the puppy events was not only fun and educational for the pup but I was able to pick up tons of information, meet other people around me that had more experience in training a trial dog to the finish. It is a great way to catch some of the broke dogs and see what it is your final goal should look like.Sharon wrote:Because it is FUN. Good social time, enjoy the out of doors, learn from more mature dogs' work, opportunity to stake your pup out with other dogs making a racket, opportunity to introduce your pup to horses if you are a walking trialer and you know the judge will be on horseback sooner or later etc......... We need more FUN and less point intensity at that level. jmoAdam wrote:Good question- so why do people run in puppy and derby in the first place? Haha when you figure out why people drive 2 hours for a puppy match let me know
It is also a great place to learn about the pros out there and get first hand experiences of those that have already used said pros. You get to see the product of what the pros have done with a dog. In fact, choosing the Tracy's for my last pup came about due to the first hand experiences that I heard about from Ray Gubernat and Karen, and got that info at the trials. Sure helped seeing the dogs they were running that had come back from them. Two of the biggest reasons that she went to them. Glad I made that choice.
With this site gaining popularity, it is also a great way to put faces with names that you meet on here. If you are going to a puppy trial to run a pup and all you get out it was that you ran your pup, then you have sorely missed out on some huge experiences.
JM2C,
Joe
-
- Rank: Junior Hunter
- Posts: 62
- Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2010 7:07 pm
- Location: chesterland, ohio
Re: Puppy & Derby points counting towards AKC FC
I can't believe how some threads get twisted around from the original question.
Anyway, you all realize that the points in puppy/derby stakes come from WINS, not just placements! You don't have the dogs whole lifetime to aquire the win, just a short window of opportunity. The judgements are based on what dog looks to have the style, and inherent quality of run, desire to hunt and inteligence to be mindful of it's handler to be a prospective gun dog or all age dog field champion. They can run in an open or amatuer stake, but only one point can be attained in each and it has to be a WIN. Many have lamented that they wish they could have gotten that one point that would have finished their dog as a Champion but they know that that one point wasn't because they didn't try, they just couldn't win at that time. I mean just because you run your dog in a puppy stake and get a second third or fourth place, doesn't mean your not in contention of earning a future FC/AFC. You just have to get more points in broke stakes is all.
And don't forget you also have to WIN a MAJOR in a broke stake to get that honor and in the case of most continental breeds you need that major with a retrieve.
IMO those who have earned their FC or AFC with puppy/derby points have everything to be proud of, because it ain't easy!
Smitty
Anyway, you all realize that the points in puppy/derby stakes come from WINS, not just placements! You don't have the dogs whole lifetime to aquire the win, just a short window of opportunity. The judgements are based on what dog looks to have the style, and inherent quality of run, desire to hunt and inteligence to be mindful of it's handler to be a prospective gun dog or all age dog field champion. They can run in an open or amatuer stake, but only one point can be attained in each and it has to be a WIN. Many have lamented that they wish they could have gotten that one point that would have finished their dog as a Champion but they know that that one point wasn't because they didn't try, they just couldn't win at that time. I mean just because you run your dog in a puppy stake and get a second third or fourth place, doesn't mean your not in contention of earning a future FC/AFC. You just have to get more points in broke stakes is all.
And don't forget you also have to WIN a MAJOR in a broke stake to get that honor and in the case of most continental breeds you need that major with a retrieve.
IMO those who have earned their FC or AFC with puppy/derby points have everything to be proud of, because it ain't easy!
Smitty
Re: Puppy & Derby points counting towards AKC FC
You can get 2 points (in each) in a puppy and derby stakes if there are enough dogs entered. In my area of the country about the max I see in a puppy is 12(low number is around 6), in derby about maybe 15(low number is around10). In open gun there are usually are 32 to 45 entries. In OAA it is usually 35 to 50. It is easyier to beat 12 dogs for a win than it is to beat 50 entries for a win. (IMO) If you take 4 juvie points towards your title, you are beating a lot fewer dogs to get your FC title than your are if you just run adult stakes only---at least in my part of the country---lots of britts & lots of pros run in our area. I can see everyone's idea why puppy and derby entries are important towards the sport---I just think it amounting to 40% of the FC title is to much.Brian Smith wrote:I can't believe how some threads get twisted around from the original question.
Anyway, you all realize that the points in puppy/derby stakes come from WINS, not just placements! You don't have the dogs whole lifetime to aquire the win, just a short window of opportunity. The judgements are based on what dog looks to have the style, and inherent quality of run, desire to hunt and inteligence to be mindful of it's handler to be a prospective gun dog or all age dog field champion. They can run in an open or amatuer stake, but only one point can be attained in each and it has to be a WIN. Many have lamented that they wish they could have gotten that one point that would have finished their dog as a Champion but they know that that one point wasn't because they didn't try, they just couldn't win at that time. I mean just because you run your dog in a puppy stake and get a second third or fourth place, doesn't mean your not in contention of earning a future FC/AFC. You just have to get more points in broke stakes is all.
And don't forget you also have to WIN a MAJOR in a broke stake to get that honor and in the case of most continental breeds you need that major with a retrieve.
IMO those who have earned their FC or AFC with puppy/derby points have everything to be proud of, because it ain't easy!
Smitty
Re: Puppy & Derby points counting towards AKC FC
I was bored so I decided to look up finished GSP's and how they got their title(s). Some got them with only adult placements, some with puppy/derby points also. The ones that had P/D points still would have finished anyway. ( I looked at about 15 dogs that had P/D points. ) I could have looked for more but I was seeing a trend that told me I probably didn't need to. All those dogs I looked at were still being run, still placing, and still winning after finishing with the juvenile points.
- Vonzeppelinkennels
- GDF Junkie
- Posts: 2107
- Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 9:14 pm
- Location: Amelia,Ohio
Re: Puppy & Derby points counting towards AKC FC
Check out my avatar's placements's below.Star never ran a puppy stake but did run some derbies but never had a placement untill she ran broke dog stakes.She injured her shoulder & finished with a bad shoulder & was retired because of that injury.I started another dog after Star was retired because I can only afford one at a time.Storm was a little over 3 when he started trials last spring,so he never ran any juvenile stakes at all.His spring season was mostly for the trial experience but last fall he was competitive getting around clean with bird work in all but 1 stake he was picked up in.We are expecting some placements &
wins this trial yr.Will see how it goes.I have no problem with or without juvenile points counting,but do understand it gives incentive to people just starting.
Hmmmm things are not showing up on my comp in the signature line for anyones posts,is anyone else having that problem?? so I gave a link for her placements
http://www.remekvizslas.net/dog.php4?id=23322
wins this trial yr.Will see how it goes.I have no problem with or without juvenile points counting,but do understand it gives incentive to people just starting.
Hmmmm things are not showing up on my comp in the signature line for anyones posts,is anyone else having that problem?? so I gave a link for her placements
http://www.remekvizslas.net/dog.php4?id=23322
Re: Puppy & Derby points counting towards AKC FC
Looks like I lost my sig too Ted.
- Vonzeppelinkennels
- GDF Junkie
- Posts: 2107
- Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 9:14 pm
- Location: Amelia,Ohio
Re: Puppy & Derby points counting towards AKC FC
Brad it seems to be working in other threads so don't know what's going on in this one.
Re: Puppy & Derby points counting towards AKC FC
Strange! I don't know either.
Ezzy
Ezzy