Teaching Whoa!

[grant]

Hi everyone,

I tried a method of working on whoa that was new to me today. It might not be new to everyone here, so I wanted to share it…

I’ve used a wood plank and some kind of checkcord/hoist method to teach whoa, and so far, I’ve got the best results with this barrel method. With the barrel, the dog must remain still so that the barrel does not roll. I did use my foot some of the time to stabilize the barrel, but the dog still had to focus. When Carl would wobble, I would give him a firm “WHOA” and help him regain his balance. I also gave him some positive feedback so that he knew he was doing well..

Anyone want to share their method of teaching whoa?

[Helen]

You certainly do things differently in the US. The Whoa command, is that to keep them steady on point or to stop them chasing the birds after they have flushed?

Helen

[raven]

I've been using a whoa table but I am going to give the barrel a try

[grant]

I use it as one of the first commands I teach, to control the dog, like sit or come. when I say whoa, I expect my dogs to stop everything and stand at attention.

For example, if I take Carl out of his dog box. If I say whoa, Carl will stand still, so I can put a collar on him. This way, I don't have to fight the dog to leash him. Or, when I would miss a bird, Bell would chase the bird clear across the field. Once she learned whoa, and she would chase a bird, I could say whoa, and she will stop dead in her tracks!

[Country-Side Breeders]

Looks like a very interesting way to whoa train/break. I might just use it on some of the dogs here!

Whoa is also handy when their heading towards the road with a car coming!

[Helen]

For example, if I take Carl out of his dog box. If I say whoa, Carl will stand still, so I can put a collar on him. This way, I don't have to fight the dog to leash him. Or, when I would miss a bird, Bell would chase the bird clear across the field. Once she learned whoa, and she would chase a bird, I could say whoa, and she will stop dead in her tracks!

oh right, thanks for the explanation. I tend to use ah, ah, ah to get their attention but never realised there was actually a "proper" command for it. Makes sense.

Helen

[Duane M]

I use the barrel and/or plank on every dog I own and train. It's not an end but is a very good means to an end in beginning whoa training. Of all the methods I have learned it is the quickest I have found to introduce the command to establish a base when you go to the ground. A couple of big pluses in my eyes is it does help in getting better style in a dog on point and can be a big help in W&S work as well.

[GRIFF MAN]

I used the barrell on two Griffons and it worked very well. I watched a video tape from Sherry Ray Ebert and she describes the process very well.

The barrell is a way I introduce steady on birds as well, of course it is all done in a timely manner.

If you haven't tried it, don't knock it. We all are looking for new ways to train better.


Griff Man

[terryg]

to me woha is an advanced command. it is basically a stand while in motion. other sports have recognized it as an advanced command also.

i suppose it is semantics. i read an article in american hunter the other day that said "whoa was the beginning of all pointing dogs" . i am sorry but that is just not the case.

many use whoa when they really mean stay. in my training and lots of other's training they are not the same and used for different purposes.

in my traing whoa is a command that means stop where you are. has nothing to do with a bird. it is used to let a hunter get a better position or in some cases to stop the dog from rushing a bird too much so as to avaoid a premature flush.

the barrel, although not necessary, is a very good way for some to get the proper whoa from a dog. it is by far not the only way or even the preferred one but it does work well.

if it is what works for you then use it. if you think it is too much pick a different way. there are many.

[GRIFF MAN]

terryg :

the barrel, although not necessary, is a very good way for some to get the proper whoa from a dog. it is by far not the only way or even the preferred one but it does work well.

who says it is not the perferred way and who says it is not necessary ???

you...



Griff

[12 Volt Man]

Those that use it. Please explain your method for using the barrel.
I got a barrel and it is painted with a pretty glossy paint. The dog slips off very easily. Is this the point?
I duct taped a piece of carpet on the side and tried that a few times. I haven't got serious about the barrel method yet. I would like to try it again.

[grant]

My barrel is slick too, which seemed make the dog slip off the barrel. I didn't like this too much either, because I wanted the dog to remain still to keep the barrel from rolling, not to keep his footing. In the picture, you can see that carl's back foot had slipped off the barrel. I would also provide some support for the dog while I help him position his feet toward the center of the barrel. This helped keep his feet from sliding too. 12 Volt's idea of carpet on the barrel seems nice. I thought about coating the barrel with some rubberized paint.

12 Volt, let us know how the next sessions go...

Again, I not saying this is the best method, because I do not believe that one method is best for every dog. =)

[terryg]

calm down griff,

the stand in motion has been used in competition and taught in more than bird dog training for better than 100 years. the barrel was not heard of 10 years ago.

as i said, if you like it use it. it is just another tool.

this can be taught in 1 one day in the back yard with nothing but a leash. i know this cause i have done it for 30 years. and no, i didn't invent it. it was around a long time before me too.


tools are great and i think everyone should use whatever makes them happy. i was just be pointing out however that millions of dogs were taught to stand in motion, or what is called whoa here, with out a barrel.

[Duane M]

Terry your right that whoa is an advanced obedience type command the same as a moving stay is. The biggest difference is in the OB dog you are simply working against the instinct to stay heeled while with the gun dog you are working against the prey drive. The biggest problem I see and hear is people making the transition to game especially in the highest dominance dogs, you know the real breeding stock.

I would have to disagree that any dog can be taught this with just a leash and backyard however, at least without some very negative reinforcement. Some dogs yes the lower drive dogs but not the high end dogs and even on the low drive dogs when game is intrduced I would still say it is a 50/50 proposition. But if ya think you can do this to every dog I have a candidate for you I would love to see you try it with and make the transfer to game and field in one day.

BTW the barrel has been in use long enough the breeder I train for cannot remember when he first heard of it and he's been at it for over 50 years. Definitely longer than 10 years. Just like the Buddy stick someone else was using it long before someone decided to market it.

[GRIFF MAN]

terryg:

calm down griff,

it was a monday

griff

[terryg]

i agree with your premise on the drive griff but that's a problem inside the hunting group as a whole. they are all so scared of obed because they are sure it will "make a dog lay down on point", "take the drive out", etc.

when i said it can be doen in the back yard i should have premised it with the fact that i was talking of a dog that had basic obed. then again , all my dogs have obed put in before we do anything else though it is geared to the age of the dog and his individual level.

if the dog has obed he has obed. if he doesn't. these are the dogs that can't sit still and drag the owner from place to place on the lead while the owner yells sit, sit, sit, sit sit, down, sit down , sit! then they tell ya "he always does better than this at the house."

he does not!

if your dog has no obed foundation he/you will have a hard time overcoming any kind of control situation.

as for drive. look at ft/ht labs. they are required to sit and stay regardless of the birds falling around them on their marks as well as in the honor position when they have to stay while another dog busts out of the boat and gets the bird they believe is theirs.

also in flushing dogs the standard for proper handling is the dog hupps(sits) on the flush and waits to be sent after the downed bird. if it was so tough to stop a dog in drive how do you think these practices would have ever been developed.

and btw, if you have a candidate that you think is in need i get paid to do the very thing you talked about. send him to me and i'll hook you up. i offer a no train-no pay guarantee

i was showing a new client one of my gsp's hunting as a demo. the dog was flying across the field at her normal 20mph lope and i hollered "whoa". she froze in place until i blew the hunt whistle again. the client called me a "showoff". i told him that was not showing off and it was what should be normal for any pointer.


as for the barrel, if you found someone that had done more than bird dogs they would tell you the same as me.

i don't think you will find too many bird dog trainers well known for their obed but when you do (jim dobbs) they won't have a barrel anywhere around.

[Duane M]

Terry just an FYI I have dealt with far more than just bird dogs. From basic OB to service dogs to herding dogs to SAR work and protection I have been there done that. BTW I don't need to take you up on the offer as I am a trainer and have been for many years.

You have your way I have mine I stand on my record as to effectiveness of my methods. Yes if the dog has the basic OB work done then the stand still can be done very much easier but just how many dogs do you train for people that have ever had that done? Thats the real world and where the barrel comes in great for staunching a dog in the shortest time. Besides if this method is so off base then why do all the NAVHDA guys do so much of their training on a table in the initial phases are they doing it wrong as well? Is not NAVHDA real big on OB?

FWIW I do train whoa as an OB type command and have done the same thing you were called a show off for. Great feeling to be called a smart "bleep" for good training aint it.

[terryg]

before any dog is trained for the field by me he has to have obed. you can teach it yourself(it will be tested on my specs), you can have me teach it, or you can find a another trainer.

navhda is a very young orgaization with a very small memebrship. i think they are doing a wondeful job but they are far from any kind of "authority" in the dog world.

i have worked in the areas of dog training yuou spoke of along with schutzhund, ringsport, ft/ht retrievers and pointers.
my point was there are far more dogs across the board trained to be "staunch" as you call in in all kinds of situations without barrels.

just a difference between 2 dog trainers.

[Setter Man]

Don't let the EGO'S get to carried away :roll:

There is not a RIGHT way in the art of dog training, simply do what works..

What works for a certain dog and trainer might not work for another.

Personally I have used the barrel method as well as many others over the years, each dog is different and requires different training techniques

I do start all our field trial dogs (pointers) off on strict obedience and that includes the WHOA command, this is done before any serious bird work.

Remember PATIENCE PRAISE and PERSISTENCE.

Dog Training is an Art of Learned Behaviors!!

GOOD LUCK!

[Duane M]

What no EGOS allowed .

Setter what you say of every dog being different is why options like the barrel exist not every dog I work goes to barrel or plank but when I need it the option is there to use. Interesting take though of the OB before any birds never have heard that one but hey if it works well for you great.

[snips]

I have never used anything too elaborate for teaching Whoa. A 6 ft leash and a nylon collar around their rear section is all. It`s pretty simple. The rear contact point serves a purpose for using the e-collar later on the rear.

[Setter Man]

Hello Duane,
We teach all our bird dogs obedience first, not saying we don't wing and rod them a little or temp them with a few birds while on the barrel. Most well bred bird dogs point with little training it is a genetic thing as you well know. I satart with basic ob and move on from there, if the dog is a little timid they might get more birds. i understand there is not a replacement for birds in gun dog training. once i have a small handle on the dog without using an e-collar i transfer over to more birds. then when i see the switch turned on, the FUN BEGINS!!!
It is kind of neat to here other trainers opinion on how to start a bird dog..