Creating a gun shy dog??

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 11:51 am

I have recently got into shooting trap and skeet. What amazes me is how many people have there bird dogs our there. Not just full grown dogs but pups. I have seen quite a few of these dogs/pups hiding under the truck that they are tied to. Has anyone else seen this? Did you say anything? Is this some method of breaking a dog I have never heard of?

ohiogsp · Post by **ohiogsp** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 7:02 pm

You can thank "Wolters" for that. And many other things.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 7:33 pm

I cringe when I see people do things like that...

one of my pet peeves are the ones who take there pup out with a 22 not a blank pistol but a 22 they do not understand that the 22 have a high pitched schrill.

We had a guy take his pup out with his buddies he thought the 10 month old pup was doing great so they went hunting with about 6 guys birds came up and everyone unloaded their guns the young dog was over whemled to say the least....took us a long time to get him over that ...everytime a bird flushed up the dog would stick his head between your legs....let him chase birds and let him chase birds till finally got him where he would hunt for 1 person but bring out another shooter forget it

Ruffshooter · Post by **Ruffshooter** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 7:46 pm

ohiogsp wrote:You can thank "Wolters" for that. And many other things.

How does Wolters get dragged into this one? Although it has been many years since reading that book, I don't recall him saying to take your dog to the skeet range. Am I forgetting part of the book? About the only thing I ever got from that book was not much.

It always amazes me how folks think they can get their dog gun broke. Most of these folks should not have dogs. It is alway best to be cautious and take your time. Start at a distance with the dog chasing or having fun and fire a small blank gun until no reaction and move up and closer till it is old hat. It is way easier to create a gun shy dog than to fix it.

gunner · Post by **gunner** » Wed Jun 28, 2006 10:04 am

An obnoxious and egotistical so-called internet dog training expert, who used to post here often, (was kicked off this site as well as others for his rantings and ravings) often suggested to others to take their young dogs and gunshys to the trap range.
Yea, and this was the same guy that suggested not using a ecollar for trash breaking. His suggestion was based on the old joke of putting the transgressing dog in a barrel and rolling it down a hill.
He even tried to mislead folks that the gunclub method was promoted as a viable training method by Rick Smith's Huntsmith team. Sharon confronted the badboy directly by saying their group had never suggested this.
Somone on another site said that in Wolter's book that he had suggested gunclub work. I don't have the book, but I did review a copy of it at a bookstore. As I remember reading the section Wolters never said to take a dog to the gunclub ranges, but I think he did promote allowing a dog that had been well started and already used to gunfire to watch claybirds being thrown from a handtrap to develop steadiness to w&s.
I don't think any reputable pro or accomplished am. would suggest taking their dogs to the gunclub. No good would come from it. Some owners are asking for trouble when they do it, others have learned the hard way and own gundog pets that are now ruined for hunting.

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Wed Jun 28, 2006 10:32 am

My feelings exactly, especially about the nut about whom you speak.

The only thing I will say is that I do take my dog to one of our local gun clubs. She is well accustomed to gunfire, and we are not working on that issue by taking her there. The fact is, if you want to socialize a dog and make sure it gets petted and fussed over by more strangers than you can shake a stick at, take the dog in to the clubhouse (management permitting). There won't be a shooter in there that can resist a dog.

Post by **Ayres** » Wed Jun 28, 2006 1:21 pm

If I took my dog to the gun club, he'd have a cow because he'd want to retrieve those clays.

Every time he's been around me when throwing a few at home he has tensed up at the gun fire and locked, fixated on the point where the clay (or piece of clay) came down. If I give him the go, he'll run out, grab the clay (or piece) and retrieve it to hand.

If I let him do that at the gun club we'd never finish a round of skeet or 5-stand.

If I took him there but didn't let him retrieve, I'm sure he'd feel like a kid that gets to go to a carnival but doesn't get to ride any rides.

Though, on topic, I would never take a pup without gun introduction to the gun club.

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Wed Jun 28, 2006 3:50 pm

I too believe that it is not the best practice but a light dose is what some dogs need. When training I will stake out some pups and some older dogs and work other dogs with birds and gunfire. It really tests a chain gang when you have 5-6 dogs YANKING at it!

ohiogsp · Post by **ohiogsp** » Wed Jun 28, 2006 3:55 pm

I looked for the gun dog wolters book. I can't find it right now. I did find the game dog book. In this book it has a pic of a guy standing in the yard and shooting a shootgun. Then wolters says, "I brought the dog up to the gun slowly, yard by yard". He is just standing there shooting repeativly and wolters is bringing the dog to the gun. When I read gun dog I thought it said "goto the gun range". When Charles T. Jurney made the Gun Dog DVD, that is basically wolters book on DVD, he takes dogs to the gun range right on the video. I could be wrong about blaming wolters but I don't think so.

snips · Post by **snips** » Wed Jun 28, 2006 4:59 pm

My back yard backs up to my birdfield where we do all our training. I am always cautious about shooting close to the yd if I have pups there until they know the field means "birds". When I know they are watching (around 4 months) I will plant a bird near the fence where they can see the work going on first hand, (they have at this point already been introduced to birds). When I have undivided attn I flush the bird and if pup is watching I will shoot the blank. When they are a little further along I will do the same thing for a dog I am shooting for, and shoot a bird in front of them. Of course for training pups I always shoot the blank in full chase.

Casper · Post by **Casper** » Wed Jun 28, 2006 8:34 pm

I am kinda sitting on the fence with this one. I attended a seminar (Rick Smith) a few months ago and it was at a gun club. Over 25 dogs were staked out on the chain and many had never heard gun fire before. The guns were being fired off at no more than 50-75 yards. All were not bothered by the sounds. Some would perk up if they hadent heard one in a bit but that is about it. Rick made the point that none of those dogs were gun shy because they all had something elses on their minds.

I would think that those people that drive to the gun club unload pup and drag him over to the 5 stand just as a round was begining is a bad idea but those that have their pups in a crate or in their pickups are not causing any harm.

I personaly think it might be good to train next to a gun club. Dogs will learn real fast what to ignore because something more exciting is happening out in front of them.

wildman · Post by **wildman** » Tue Jul 04, 2006 8:53 am

As far as the Wolters Book I dont think it says anything about a gun club in it but the DVD does I know. My brother in law got the dvd about 6 months ago I am certain it is in the DVD. Also what about the 4th of July any one that lives in a residential nieghborhood is certain to have bottle rockets black cats and who knows what else fired off.

gunner · Post by **gunner** » Tue Jul 04, 2006 10:06 am

wildman wrote: Also what about the 4th of July any one that lives in a residential nieghborhood is certain to have bottle rockets black cats and who knows what else fired off.

A professional gun dog trainer writes on a current thread on another popular bulletin board is that fireworks are one of the most common causes of "gunshyness problems" in bird dogs that are brought into his kennel for "cure"

Another site quotes a veternarian as hunting dogs being very susceptible to gunshyness by way of fireworks due to their inherient acute hearing and often nervous temperment. Terror in dogs due to fireworks and thunder affect over 50% of the canine population.

RemchesterBrittanys · Post by **RemchesterBrittanys** » Tue Jul 04, 2006 10:37 am

Hey Scott, we shoot skeet pretty regular here and have seen the same thing at The Clay Target Center so I asked the guy what he was trying to do. He said he started weeks ago at the end of the range and had worked the dog right up to the fields. His dog was showing no reaction and it seemed to work for him BUT I imagine that you could really screw a dog up if you were not extremely careful. I think most people have a tendancy to rush through this part and do more damage than good.

If you ever get up to Phoenix let's break a few.

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Tue Jul 04, 2006 11:36 am

My experience has been that while dogs can be very shy of fireworks and thunder, it does not translate over to gunshyness necessarily. I had a very heavily hunted dog years ago, lots of birds shot over it in trials and hunting, never a speck of gunshyness, just the opposite. The sight of the guns coming out made him want to go. But he would be under the bed on the opposite side of the house when fireworks were going off, and did not like thunder. I have a hunting dog right now that does not like thunder or fireworks, goes down in the basement. But she is not the least guyshy.

I suppose it would be possible, though, for a young dog that had not been hunted, not to be able to differentiate gunfire from fireworks and thunder.

My own pet theory is that fireworks give off high frequency sounds that humans cannot hear, but dogs can, that are frightening to the dogs. Thunder too, except I think the component of thunder they hear or sense is a very low frequency component. Just a pet theory, no proof.

Vizsla Vince · Post by **Vizsla Vince** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 8:38 pm

Now, this may just be newbie idiocy, but I take Zoomie to the do-it-yourself range all the time. Mind you, I made sure he wasn't gunshy before I did. Zoomie isn't phased by this in the least. He doesn't hide, in fact if he wasn't tethered, he'd probably chase the clays. Alot of the time, he'll lounge in front of me at my feet while I shoot.
He does get upset if I go out & collect unbroken clays w/out him!

Post by **Ayres** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 8:44 pm

Wagonmaster wrote:My own pet theory is that fireworks give off high frequency sounds that humans cannot hear, but dogs can, that are frightening to the dogs. Thunder too, except I think the component of thunder they hear or sense is a very low frequency component. Just a pet theory, no proof.

I might agree with you on the thunder aspect, but Justus told me this past 4th that he's not afraid of fireworks so long as he can see them. The neighbors let off some bottle rockets and he started looking all over the place for the source of the sound. (My parents have a privacy fence so he couldn't see them) When he was unable to locate the commotion, he freaked out a bit and wanted to go back inside.

Later that evening I set off plenty of fireworks and I had to have Danyelle hold him back because he was getting all excited and jumping up as if he was going to catch a piece of roman candle. Of course he wasn't nearly close enough to actually get to the candle, nor was he able to jump high enough to even reach the base, which I set atop the edge of the fence, but we had one excited dog on our hands!