**Force Fetch**

[lvrgsp]

Ha ha, that title got your attention did'nt it?....well here ya go, my question is this..There is always the topic of FF on here in some form or another, but was not been adressed as much as I would like to have seen is the fact that FF is more than just retrieving, it's a whole training philosophy. Although I understand the whole FF process and it's many implications, and training procedures, I also feel it has hurt the natural retrieve in some GSP's...So for those who are proficient in FF, please elaborate on your process and the overall results on the FF.

Thanks,
Chip

[crackerd]

First, interested in how you think force fetch has "hurt" the natural retrieving abilities of shorthairs, or any gundog breed. That's contradictory to another belief that FF actually instills a driven purpose in a dog. Don't buy that one, either. But here's where you may be coming from: The Brits (creed, not breed) disavow advocate force fetch because they believe it can mask a deficiency in retrieving, and if a FF'd dog should be bred, that deficiency may be perpetuated. That one is a possibility, albeit rather remote in my book.

But to answer your question with another question, you might ask why trainers force fetch retrievers, whose very name attests to what they're bred to do. And do quite well without FF. Yet every competitive retriever is force fetched. (OK, 999 out of 1,000--Rick, I know you're out there.)

Now for your take on FF as detrimental to a dog's natural retrieving ability.

MG

[lvrgsp]

My mistake I worded that incorrectly, if....IF now you never know how a dogs natural ability to retrieve is, because you don't need to, because you have a FF program, say you breed said dogs over and over with no natural retrieving ability, but they can all FF like mad, and then a few hunters get a dog from you, don't know the first thing about FF and they have dogs who will not retrieve naturally. That's just my take on it. Like I said before, I understand the purpose of the FF program, I know why trainers do it, explain it to everyone else, it's not just about FF, meaning it's not just about retrieving, or am I missing something here?


Chip

[snips]

I have FFed for years and I have more natural retrievers than I ever have had.

[Ditch__Parrot]

Interesting topic. I once heard a Lab guy mention that the incresed use of force fetch has attributed to a rise in hard mouthed labs. To a non-expert like myself it does seem to make some sense that natural retrieving abllity would get sidelined to some degree via force fetch....BUT...It would stand to reason that natural ability would still shine through on a FF'ed dog. You might be able to train a dog to retrieve that has little to no natural ability but I doubt said dog would do it nearly as well or with any of the exuberance that a dog with a lot of natural ability would. In other words I'm saying I doubt you would see too many dogs with no natural retrieving instinct FF like mad.

[Rick Hall]

Yet every competitive retriever is force fetched. (OK, 999 out of 1,000--Rick, I know you're out there.)

Now for your take on FF as detrimental to a dog's natural retrieving ability.

MG

You're safe, none of my retrievers has been "competitive": just gun dogs that also do some hunt testing, never trialed. (And FFers will be glad to know the current young coyote balked at picking up a hunt test duck yesterday - though not as badly as some of the FFed dogs. 'Course mentioning that has no doubt slathered the gris-gris all over us, and he'll eat one today.)

Fwiw, however, I don't share the Brit's fears of FF masking something and believe their methods and mine are just as apt to. Not only have my FFed for generations bred retrievers readily adapted to our course of training, but a hound and a terrier with zip natural retrieve have, too.

[snips]

I do not know why FFing would make more dogs hard mouthed. They may just be breding dogs with that genetic tendency.

[gonehuntin']

First of all, you don't ff a dog unless it IS a natural retriever to start. What force fetch will NEVER do is to make a dog that dislikes retrieving into an excellent retriever. You can't give a dog that doesn't have desire, desire.

FF is so involved that books have been written on it. I would suggest you buy Evan Graham's Smart Fetch if you're really interested in how and why it is done. He uses the same system I learned 30+ years ago; it works and works well.

[lvrgsp]

Ok my apologies to everyone here, because I posted the natural retrieve part in there but that was not what I wanted the focus to be on, so if you can read my first post again and just omit the natural retrieve part of it.............But I do stand by that comment, and I have my reasons, sorry for confusing you all. And for whoever said the hard mouth thing about the retrievers, I think there is more to it than just that, more along the line of a retriever being considered a clamper, those dogs have more negative results from the FF program, and thats been documented by a pro for many years. Again sorry kind of off topic.


Thanks,
Chip

[lvrgsp]

What force fetch will NEVER do is to make a dog that dislikes retrieving into an excellent retriever.

Ok explain to me your definition of natural retrieve? The whole process.

Chip

[gonehuntin']

OK, one thing at a time. First, force fetch doesn't cause hard mouth, it sometimes fixes it. Personally, I have never seen ff cause hard mouth in any dog. Period. Hard mouth is sooooooooo rare that no pro could possible document it and it's causes. Here's the deal. A dog is tough on birds and it's sent to a pro. Maybe the dog was a bird eater, maybe a sticker, maybe a crusher. I believe that once a dog DEVELOPS AND MOUTH PROBLEM AND IT BECOMES A HABIT, it is virtually impossible to cure it. You may control it, you will not cure it. Every pro I have known has felt the same way.

Pointing dog people don't like pointers retrieving birds, they feel it makes them harder to staunch. That may be. Keeping them out of the water prevents water freaking. Not teaching them to respond to a whistle MAY give them greater range. I think that's all rot. Get a pointer pup retrieving socks, toys, paint rollers, bumpers, birds, etc. from a pup and chances are pretty good, he'll end up being a pretty fair retriever. If you watch this and other forums long enough, you'll see that a commonly reoccuring problem is that a dog won't retrieve. That's because they won't let them retrieve.

So, a natural retriever. From the time I have a pup I encourage that pup to carry toys in it's mouth. I never let them chew on training bumpers or tools. They also begin retrieving. A natural retriver should roar out to a tossed object. Whether or not he picks it up is irrelevant. To pick that object up and return with it is training. To run out to it is the retrieving desire. If you have a dog that has NO interest in doing this, do amount of force will EVER produce a reliable retriever. You may get them to retrive in the yard, but they'll blink the bird in the field.

When you hear about force fetch awakening a latent desire in a dog to retrieve, that is true, sometimes it will. With a dog that given a chance, may have been a good natural retriever but hasn't been given the chance, ff will sometimes wake that up and the dog will become a retrieving maniac. FF CAN awaken a latent desire, I CANNOT CREATE desire.

What force fetch is really about is it's ability to establish a training attitude with a dog that lets that dog correctly and effectively accept pressure given it. It teaches dogs in an organized manor how to turn pressure off by complying with a training command.

[lvrgsp]

Ok first thing, clamper is what I was referring to in retrievers, and it is Mike Lardy....he's seen enough to document it.
Second your definition of retrive is what I call pick up and carry, what I call a natural retrieving dog, is a dog that will go get the bird and bring it back with no training. Just a difference in definitions and I agree with you on the desire part, I just call it pick up and carry.....
I asked this question so that those who see all the FF answers on here, realize that it's more than just about retrieving..I understand the FF process.

What force fetch is really about is it's ability to establish a training attitude with a dog that lets that dog correctly and effectively accept pressure given it. It teaches dogs in an organized manor how to turn pressure off by complying with a training command.

That was what I wanted to hear, and your thoughts on the process this establishes in all of it's training.

Thank You,
Chip

[snips]

I believe you can achieve a great retriever thru FF on a dog with no natural instincts to retrieve. I do not believe there is any way of knowing on that dog if it is awaking his natural instincts or if you have a great "trained" retrieve.

[ezzy333]

Its always been my understanding that is where FF got started, training dogs without any natural retrieving instinct to retrieve in a circus act or where ever. I know that is how they train many dogs today for obedience work. And many of those dogs don't have a clue what retrieving is.

Ezzy

[snips]

Thats true Ezzy, that is where I learned it, as the dog has to retrieve a dumbell over a jump and they are not going to do this naturally