Whats the DIfference

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Wed Jul 06, 2005 12:47 pm

What is the difference between an american GSP and a German DK?

SteveB · Post by **SteveB** » Wed Jul 06, 2005 3:18 pm

There are some folks on here that can answer any specific questions much better than I can, but here's a good place to start.

http://www.cgspc.org/articles.htm

Steve

Kevin · Post by **Kevin** » Wed Jul 06, 2005 9:28 pm

Depends on who you ask

Like SteveB said there are a few on here that should be able to give you a good answer.

Some say the only "real" difference is who they are registered with, some say there two different breeds.

This is the difference as I see it;

To be bred a DK must pass a performance test in accordance with the standard of the Deutsch Kurzhaar Verband or the JGHV. (Solms,HZP or VGP)

The Dog must also recieve a conformation rating of atleast Good

Any dog showing; gunshyness,gunsensitivty, sensitivity to surroundings, hyper-nervousness, fright of live game, epileptics, hip displasia(light,medium,heavy) will be excluded from breeding.

An GSP only needs to be a pure bred GSP to be bred.

That being said the DKV test that are required to breed are nothing extrordinary(comparable to NAVHDA Utility) and many GSP's are quite capable.

Buying a GSP requires you to do your homework, and know what you really want. There are many types of GSP breeders within the AKC with different goals vs the DKV which all have roughly the same thing in mind. The DKV does your homework for you.

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Wed Jul 06, 2005 10:55 pm

O basically the american GSP is a bird dog and the DK is the original dog used for both birds tracking and big game.

QCBirddogs · Post by **QCBirddogs** » Wed Jul 06, 2005 11:26 pm

KEvin,

Close but no cigar!

THey are two different breeds, In my opinion..... As an owner and absolute lover of both breeds. We have specialists in every dog, there is no perfect one by far.

The DK and or the DD was developed as the "Poor mans dog" for lack of better description in terms. The true Versatile dog.

Can my trial Gsp's do what some of our DK's do, I would say a rare few, and the same goes vice-versa.

Many American Trial GSP's cannot come close to passing the DK tests. I am sure there are many NAVHDA that can though. Yes the juvinile tests are a bit lame. The Derby Test, like the NA test, is just to show what mother nature has given the pups, no training should be involved, hence the title, Natural Ability.

The NAVHDA based their testing system around the JGHV system. They have elliminated what they didnt see useful.

You cannot breed a DK just because you own them. They have to pass 2 juvinile tests, receive a passing grade in conformation & have a hip certification from Germany. The males have to pass an animal sharpness test as well. The pupies have to be tatooed by the breed warden, their "papers" get the same identical tattoo.

On the "papers".....you get a family history of every test score of every dog for 5 generations. No nickle and dime stuff there!

If you want to compare adult tests between NAVHDA and the DKV....The DKV are much more in depth. They both require the same amount of training in bird work....but like I said NAVHDA has elliminated quite a bit in their tests.

If you are interested in the discription of the test titles. There is an english conversion on our web site... www.redearthoutfitters.com under the DK page.

If there is an interest, we could go in to what the requirements are of the tests.

P & G
REO

snips · Post by **snips** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 6:11 am

So, are you saying if you import a DK you cannot breed it to am American dog and register pups?

QCBirddogs · Post by **QCBirddogs** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 7:50 am

You can import a DK, register it with the AKC and then breed it to an AKC dog and have AKC puppies. You can not import a DK, breed it to an AKC dog and then have DK puppies. Both parents must be FCI registered DKs that have passed all of their certification requirements to have DK puppies.

Also, because of a weird loophole in the AKC registration process, it is difficult to register a domestically born DK with the AKC. With an import its just a matter of paying $50.00.

Kurzhaar · Post by **Kurzhaar** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 12:13 pm

In addition to differences in the breeding requirements, there is are differences in the objectives and thoughts of the breeders. The "typical" DK breeder is looking for a mentally stable dog that can do many tasks well, though they may concentrate on specific ones. In the US, there is not "Typical" breeder since there are people wanting a myriad different types of dogs. Unfortunately, all the good brought forth by dedicated breeders is undermined by the "I don't care about testing, I just want a Burd Dawg" crowd.

Jim

Bird Dog 67 · Post by **Bird Dog 67** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 2:02 pm

QCBirddogs wrote:KEvin,

Close but no cigar!

THey are two different breeds, In my opinion..... As an owner and absolute lover of both breeds. We have specialists in every dog, there is no perfect one by far.

The DK and or the DD was developed as the "Poor mans dog" for lack of better description in terms. The true Versatile dog.

Can my trial Gsp's do what some of our DK's do, I would say a rare few, and the same goes vice-versa.

Many American Trial GSP's cannot come close to passing the DK tests. I am sure there are many NAVHDA that can though. Yes the juvinile tests are a bit lame. The Derby Test, like the NA test, is just to show what mother nature has given the pups, no training should be involved, hence the title, Natural Ability.

The NAVHDA based their testing system around the JGHV system. They have elliminated what they didnt see useful.

You cannot breed a DK just because you own them. They have to pass 2 juvinile tests, receive a passing grade in conformation & have a hip certification from Germany. The males have to pass an animal sharpness test as well. The pupies have to be tatooed by the breed warden, their "papers" get the same identical tattoo.

On the "papers".....you get a family history of every test score of every dog for 5 generations. No nickle and dime stuff there!

If you want to compare adult tests between NAVHDA and the DKV....The DKV are much more in depth. They both require the same amount of training in bird work....but like I said NAVHDA has elliminated quite a bit in their tests.

If you are interested in the discription of the test titles. There is an english conversion on our web site... www.redearthoutfitters.com under the DK page.

If there is an interest, we could go in to what the requirements are of the tests.

P & G
REO

Forgive me for my ignorance but isn't it then a difference in the training and not necessarily in the breed itself. I mean genetically aren't they the same breed? I

f my Weim is trained to be a bird specific dog instead of a general game dog does that make it a different breed? I'm not being a smart arse I'm seriously confused as to how these differences would make them an entirely different breed. Thanks for the info!

Kevin · Post by **Kevin** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 3:22 pm

I told you Ryan

Good points QC, although "I" don't see them as two different breeds, no more than I see a NAVHDA bred gsp and a Horseback FT gsp as different breeds. Are there differences? sure, some night and day, but some are so close you can't tell.

Kurzhaar said

The "typical" DK breeder is looking for a mentally stable dog that can do many tasks well, though they may concentrate on specific ones. In the US, there is not "Typical" breeder since there are people wanting a myriad different types of dogs.

Ditto, when I said

There are many types of GSP breeders within the AKC with different goals vs the DKV which all have roughly the same thing in mind.

QCBirddogs · Post by **QCBirddogs** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 7:21 am

Kevin,

Again I have to disagree with you. The versatility has almost been bred out of our American Trial dogs.

Genetics are another story.....Out of all the breeds the AKC chose to map for marker specificity, four were not able to be determined. One of them was the AMerican GSP. I wonder why?

If the differences were in training and not genetics, then couldn't any breed be a versatile dog?

The AKC parent club has chosen to revamp the breed standard (to meet their needs) that has been in effect for over 100 years, again I wonder why?

When it comes to Weims.....much of the bird dog has been bred out of the breed too! Look at the differences between the show and field bred ones in this country. I have trained quite a few in my kennel, seen hundreds run in trials, the differences are very noticable.

Have you seen what is required of your dog in Germany, do you honestly think he can pass them? HE might be able to I wouldn't know with out information on his heritage.

Many trial folks I know of have claimed that their trials dogs can do what a DK can......I have invited them here to hunt with us or track a wounded deer, sit in a duck blind quietly, kill and retrieve yotes or even indicate and retrieve rabiits! Oddly none have showed up yet!

I dont claim one is better than the other. I ride the middle of the fence here. Like I said, I own both breeds and aperciate them equally. I definetly cannot say they are in any way the same.

P & G
REO

snips · Post by **snips** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 7:54 am

I still don`t understand how it is a different breed. Just because the genepool is watered down from some of their origional instincts.

honeyrun · Post by **honeyrun** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 8:40 am

The versatility has almost been bred out of our American Trial dogs.

American TRIAL dogs yes, but their are those of us that do not rely on TRIAL bloodlines to achieve great versatile performance dogs.

Kevin · Post by **Kevin** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 9:07 am

Honeyrun...my thoughts exactly

QC if your talking american trial dogs, then I agree, the versatility is all but lost. But there are still some AKC GSP's that are very close to the original DK.

QC wrote

Have you seen what is required of your dog in Germany, do you honestly think he can pass them? HE might be able to I wouldn't know with out information on his heritage.

Time will tell, will be doing derby this fall and plan to continue on from there, as far as his heritage-30 KS dogs in his 5 generation ped including Sire and Dam. He's got the stuff, the only thing that will hold him back is ME as I am new to this.

Kurzhaar · Post by **Kurzhaar** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 9:24 am

Kevin wrote:Honeyrun...my thoughts exactly

QC if your talking american trial dogs, then I agree, the versatility is all but lost. But there are still some AKC GSP's that are very close to the original DK.

Kevin:

The key to your statement is SOME. There are breeders like Honeyrun that are doing an outstanding job of keeping the versatility, unfortunately, the average breeder out there is just producing "Burd Dawgs".

By the way, the Derby test is only held in the spring of the year. So you have some time to enjoy your dog and hunt before then.

Jim

Dave Quindt · Post by **Dave Quindt** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 9:33 am

Genetics are another story.....Out of all the breeds the AKC chose to map for marker specificity, four were not able to be determined. One of them was the American GSP. I wonder why?

The DNA breed marker study WAS able to indentify GSPs, just not to the 99% accuracy target for the computer software they were using. They tried to indentify 85 breeds using 414 dogs, collected at conformation events. Do the math - that's less than 5 dogs per breed. The study clearly stated that the sample pools would have to grow exponentially before the process could be implemented. This is the same study that found a genetic link between the Yorkshire Terrier and the pigeon!

Kevin · Post by **Kevin** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 10:51 am

Right

don't know why I wrote fall, thats when they do Solms.

Your right SOME would be the key word.

sudiegirl · Post by **sudiegirl** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 11:14 am

Bird Dog 67 wrote:Forgive me for my ignorance but isn't it then a difference in the training and not necessarily in the breed itself. I mean genetically aren't they the same breed? I

f my Weim is trained to be a bird specific dog instead of a general game dog does that make it a different breed? I'm not being a smart arse I'm seriously confused as to how these differences would make them an entirely different breed. Thanks for the info!

i have a good friend that looks like colin farrell (yes i know SOOO hot!!) back to the point.... just because he LOOKS like the actor does NOT make the two related in ANY way shape or form. my american bred german shorthaired pointer hunts upland game birds. my DK hunts both upland game birds, waterfowl, and fur as well. (and yes he can distinguish between both and has not been confused or ruined by hunting both feather and fur :roll: ) could i train my american bred shorthair to hunt fur as well and sit nicely in a duck blind? probably, he is pretty d*** smart. but would he enjoy and live for it in the same way that my DK(who has been BRED to do so since the beginning of the breed) enjoys it? .... doubtfully so. both the american bred shorthair and the DK are great breeds, but while one was altered through breeding to meet various needs when it was brought to the US, the other breed has continued to be closely monitored through a strict breeding and testing program to have the SAME breed goals for a much longer period of time. while some breeders of american bred GSP's have done a phenomenal job of keeping the versitility in the breed, others have not. there is NOTHING wrong with either breed, but as an owner of both an american bred german shorthaired pointer and a DK, i believe that they ARE different breeds.

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 11:39 am

What you all seem to be talking about is what has happened to the European dogs when we bring them to America. We as a society have to have speed and good looks instead of reliability and efficeincy.

The English pointers had the Fox Hound bred in to produce style and more speed.

Gsp's had Pointer used to get the head and tail up and add speed.

A few Brits had English Setter used to speed them up.

The DK is the European model that was imported before we had to style them.

The French Brittany is the same dog that was imported 70 years ago before we bred them more stylish and faster.

In other words the DK and the French Brit is the exact same dog that was brought here years ago.

The American Brit and the GSP is the same breed after we improved them or maybe should say bred them to what we wanted.

The sad thing is we are so impatient that we can't improve fast enough to stay within the breed but have used other breeds to do it quickly.

Now we are saying we aren't sure all of the changes are good but I'll bet you dollars to donuts that the same thing will continue to happen and 70 years from now we will have people still bringing in DK's and French Brits and the dogs we are talking about now will all be just Brits and GSPs.

Ezzy

snips · Post by **snips** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 11:48 am

I still don`t believe it is 2 breds. If my pegigrees were traced back 10 generations, or even 6 generations, there would be so much Wasserschling and Grief it would look like a German pedigree. So why is it a separate "Breed"???

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 12:03 pm

I agree Brenda

Ezzy

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 12:17 pm

Bravo Ezzy well said.

markj · Post by **markj** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 12:45 pm

Howdy, been readin posts here for awhile and I hadda pipe in here. I have had many shorthairs over the years and can tell you they all hunt feather, fur, ducks etc, track blood trails all this and more. I see the DK thing as an ego trip and nothing more. There have been rumors of pointer cross but I say this, prove it beyond any doubt or say no more!

Jealousy is the root of most, and when a guy has a winning dog, folks are going to talk, most bad. Human nature at work.

I have 4 GSPs now on my place, out of different lines and they will hunt whatever we wish to hunt, find what I ask them to find. This is a great breed of dog or I wouldnt own one, found this out as a young man many years ago when my dad hunted his springer against a shorthair. I was impressed and have hunted over many a dog but own these for one reason, they are the best bar none.

I had a hege-haus bitch once years ago, out of show dog lines, she was the best hunter I have had to date, but these 4 are still young

she could tell a rooster from a hen, made me some good money bettin on this with her

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 12:53 pm

Dogs are good we used to hunt over a friends brit that could tell who shot what bird by the scent of the pellets.

Kurzhaar · Post by **Kurzhaar** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 1:13 pm

snips wrote:I still don`t believe it is 2 breds. If my pegigrees were traced back 10 generations, or even 6 generations, there would be so much Wasserschling and Grief it would look like a German pedigree. So why is it a separate "Breed"???

Snips:

Sure you can go back 10 generations and yoru dog will have a "German" pedigree, but what has happened over those 10 generations? The dogs have been selected for a different purpose: Style, Run, Point to the exclusion of Track, Fur, and some would say Cooperation.

One of the tenents of breed differentiation is Purpose. I contend that the purpose of the DK is different when critically and objectively evaluated than the TYPICAL GSP.

Jim

DK Dogs · Post by **DK Dogs** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 1:15 pm

I have owned both and would argue to the death that there is a huge difference between the AVERAGE GSP and the DK's. Yes some of the American GSP's still are bred with versatile traits. I have switched to the DK and will stick with them . I like what the DKV stands for and will test and prove my dogs in the German system to continue in the values they stand for. Even in appearance of most GSP's and Dk's side by side you would be able to see it. Mental stability I have found is higher among the DK also. Not as nervous and hyper as the GSP's I have
Dave

sudiegirl · Post by **sudiegirl** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 1:26 pm

markj wrote:I see the DK thing as an ego trip and nothing more.

most people that don't own them do.

no seriously, i own both and LOVE both.... so much in fact that i am always going back and forth on which one i want to get next!! they are very different dogs and are very differently bred. the only thing that is remotely alike about them is their coloring and that they both LOVE to hunt. i love them both for their versatility, but one is clearly more versatile than the other. as someone said in an earlier post,
"I don't claim one is better than the other. I ride the middle of the fence here. Like I said, I own both breeds and appreciate them equally. I definitetly cannot say they are in any way the same. "

Grey Ghost · Post by **Grey Ghost** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 1:39 pm

This same debate went on among cocker people in the 1920's and '30's. Those who favored the English type formed their own club in 1935 and did their best to stop cross breeding, but it wasn't until 1946 that the AKC recognized two breeds (no doubt WWII had an effect on the delay). Today no one would argue that they are the same breed, but in the '30's it was a very different story. On a personal note, my grandmother bred cockers in the '30's and looking back at pictures of her dogs you'd be hard pressed to say whether they were English or American (although bred for show they actually look more like field cockers than today's show variety of either breed).

Are DK's and GSP's separate breeds? I don't think so. Can anyone, who thinks they are, honestly say that they can tell the difference 100% of the time (or even 80% of the time), just by looking at a picture of the dog? There are almost certainly those who can do that with the cockers.

Will they ever be separate breeds? Perhaps, but this would take a policy change by at least one of the registries. The English cocker people effectively stopped the cross breeding 11 years before you could say for sure there were two breeds. As long as GSPs keep getting infusions of DK blood, I don't think they'll ever differ quite enough for us to be able to point to two distinct breeds.

One last thought, while it might be true that only SOME GSPs could perform as DKs, the same is true of DKs themselves. If a DK fails to pass the tests necessary for breeding, it's still a DK (it just can't be bred). Certainly not ALL DKs pass the tests. If that were the case, there'd be no point in testing.

"That's just my opinion. I could be wrong." - Dennis Miller

DK Dogs · Post by **DK Dogs** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 1:46 pm

Looking at a one dimensional picture you might not be able to tell the difference. In real life you can see the difference in FT bred GSP and DK dogs. Ego has nothing to do with facts

honeyrun · Post by **honeyrun** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 1:53 pm

Here is my take on this controversey.

The DK was imported to America because of the way it hunted in it's homeland.

Due to the fact that there were no testing opportunities for these imports, the owners turned to a venue where they could test/trial and have fun with their dogs. Therefore, since they didn't pass the breeding tests, they were no longer considered DK's.

These original type imported DK's began to change due to breeding practices. They wanted a prairie hunter, so they breed for longer range and greater speed, doing this by breeding to dogs that developed these characteristics. (with the exception of some know discrepancies)

Now there is a group that is able to provide tests for german imports. This group holds a few tests each season to ensure that there is a breedable DK population here in America. IF you live in the Midwest, you have several opportunities each season to test. If you live elsewhere, there are very few, if any, of these tests within a reasonable driving distance. Therefore, you now have the same situation that the orginal DK import owners had. No testing opportunities, no DK.

I currently have a DK that was (is) being preped for her VGP this fall. But guess what, No test with in reasonable distance, SO, I will begin breaking her from fur hunting early this fall before our hunting season starts.

I would bet anyone that has never seen my DK's and GSP's that if they walked in my house, there would be no way that they would be able to distinquish between my GSP's and DK's.

All in All, my take on the difference is 2 fold. 1) Breeding disciplines, and 2) training disciplines. The GSP came from the german DK as imports, and for the most part, (with the exception of some know discrepancies) has not been outcrossed to another breed, therefore they still are the same breed.

THE SPLIT BECOMES APPARRENT WHEN THE TAILGAIT DROPS. (and then sometimes it doesn't)

Let me get my armor on before the arrows start flying.

DK Dogs · Post by **DK Dogs** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 1:58 pm

Honeyrun:
Good luck in the VGP. I will be pulling for you.

Why is it that people who have standards are viewed as "Elitists

honeyrun · Post by **honeyrun** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 2:06 pm

As you read, No test within reasonable driving distance (up to 6 hours one way).

Fortunately she has passed her Derby with a Prize I and her AZP with a prize I. I had to drive to MI (12 hours one way) to do her derby test which consisted of about 20 minutes of field work. In order not to have to drive that distance again, I had to run a Solms/AZP test (with no help) so I could get her AZP test done and satisfy my promise to her german breeder.

Due to the fact that there were no Derby's available this spring within reasonable driving distance, my 2nd imported DK is no longer a DK.

snips · Post by **snips** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 2:11 pm

Mental stability I would agree with, hyperactivety I would disagree with. There have been 4 or 5 German dogs here that NEVER stood still in their kennel, this goes along with slinging their stool all over. One just left, was a nice hunting dog in the field, but kept the pads wore off in he kennel. And Kurzhaar(German Shorthair), I said 10 or even 6 generations. It`s amazing the traits that are still there in 6 generations of linebreeding. Granted, they are not kept sharp on fur or as sharp on tracking but these traits stay intact if hunted, esp the tracking. I really don`t give a care about fur, and I think that goes for 98% of Americans. And, as I don`t like the direction breeding has gone in the last 15 yrs here, and now that there is an internet it has compiled to the 'backyard breeder" spiril, unfortunatly. But I still don`t see it as 2 breeds, only watered down German. I would breed more German in my lines but frankly am scared of the genetic problems and agressiveness (sharpness as they call it) that would be introduced. As I believe there are many genetic problems the German dogs carry, and even if the affected dogs are put down, the littermates are carryed on and bred as "sound".

DK Dogs · Post by **DK Dogs** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 2:12 pm

If you can get some people together it would be best to host your own test. I know that can be tuff at times but so is a really long drive

Grey Ghost · Post by **Grey Ghost** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 2:15 pm

DK Dogs wrote:Looking at a one dimensional picture you might not be able to tell the difference. In real life you can see the difference in FT bred GSP and DK dogs. Ego has nothing to do with facts

I was typing my post as you were putting yours up. The last post I saw before I started typing was Ryan's. I want you to know that what I said about photos was not an attack on you.

However, I've got some questions for you (seriously, I'm not just trying to stir the pot). You say that the difference between a FT GSP and a DK are evident in person. Would you also say that the differences are also evident between a Bench GSP (I know pure bench dogs shouldn't exist, but they do) and a FT GSP? Are these different breeds? Also, the fact still remains that cross registration is possible and therefore the GSP is still receiving DK blood. So, what do the facts (not ego) say about there actually being two different breeds?

DK Dogs · Post by **DK Dogs** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 2:15 pm

OK, now I would really have to disagree with you Snips. I have never seen a human sharp DK EVER! Infact they are more wiling to bond with anyone then any other dogs I have owned or trained or been around.

DK Dogs · Post by **DK Dogs** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 2:21 pm

once again we are not talking every single GSP. The big things are Coat confirmation bite eyes really the entire package. To much back yard breedings has taken place and yes you can see the differnce. Same with the DD. Yes they both have fur and four legs but are not the same.

snips · Post by **snips** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 2:49 pm

I don`t mean human agressiveness. The German bitch I had was a super great dog (altho hyper), then after I owned her for two yrs decided to take my older bitch down in the yard without even a growl. Ripped her throat open. Never saw it coming, me or the dog. I know that does not mean they are all that way, but seeing that once was enough for me.

blitzkrieg · Post by **blitzkrieg** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 3:31 pm

Well, would I be classified as a watered down German or maybe an American German having been here for three generations? My Grandfather was the only one in his family born here. My sister vacationed in Germany several years ago and came back saying "It is a country full of Aarons." Interesting post. I vote their more the same than different. Later Aaron

snips · Post by **snips** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 3:55 pm

Hey Aaron, if your ever in the area stop by, have not seen you since Montana.

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 3:59 pm

it is hard to follow what people think the GSP's are the same as DK and some are different so I made a poll. Please do all your posting here in this thread though thanks.

http://www.gundogforum.com/forum/viewto ... 2556#12556

Margaret · Post by **Margaret** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 4:05 pm

The term "sharpness" relates to "prey drive" in a dog, it does
not have to do with dog/human aggressiveness nor
dog/dog aggressiveness.

There are genetic problems in every breed, I think Pointers have about the least in the gun dog breeds.
Apart from those who have their breeding stock thoroughly tested I doubt there would be any difference in risk purchasing a DK or GSP pup.

I reckon the DK members would note any problems that showed up, but can the same be said for the thousands of GSP pups bred each year?

Marg

blitzkrieg · Post by **blitzkrieg** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 4:09 pm

Brenda, Thanks for the invite. I'll try and do that some time. Two girls ages 10 mths and 4 yrs keep a person busy!! Luckily, I still manage to do more than my share of bird hunting. Later, Aaron

ByeDog · Post by **ByeDog** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 9:04 pm

Ryan wrote:What is the difference between an american GSP and a German DK?

About $500.

Kevin · Post by **Kevin** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 9:19 pm

Byedog, Good one

But I think it's more like $1500 cause with the GSP you'll still have to buy 2 other dogs a retriever and a tracker.

:shock:

ByeDog · Post by **ByeDog** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 10:01 pm

Hmmm...

Track??? Oh, sure sure he can run the hunderd in 9 secs flat.

Retrieve??? Do ya mean beers from the fridge or birds?

Dave Gowdey · Post by **Dave Gowdey** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 10:19 pm

First off, let me say categorically that the traditional GSP and the DK are the SAME BREED. Breed is a genetic determination - it has nothing to do with training or tests. I can trace the pedigree of my dogs back to Hektor if I wanted to do that much work - just like any German dog. The genetics are identical.

I'll also say that the claims that these dogs are dramatically different is true ONLY of dogs with strong trial backgrounds. There have been many US breeders who have been disgusted with what the horseback triallers have done to the breed over the last twenty years or so. None of us have been surprised about the AKC genetic outcome as we all believe that the triallers have been crossbreeding to pointers for decades. That's why we call them stub tailed pointers. It isn't a term of endearment. Many of us won't breed to strong horseback trial lines - and this has been true since the 1970s. In fact, I passed on one of Gayla's trial GSP pups for exactly that reason - because of the koonass blood if I remember correctly. Not a knock on the dogs, but simply blood that would have taken me somewhere I didn't want to go. There are plenty of dedicated hobby breeders that have continued to breed traditional GSPs and who long ago left the GSPCA in disgust and won't be back any time soon.

Which is the important point to make. Trial stock is actually a small fraction of the American GSP pool. I would guess that less than 3,000 dogs each year of the 14,000 registered are bred by or for triallers. That's a generous estimate. That means that the majority of the breed is still being bred by and for non-triallers. Which is why so many of the breed have converted so easily and well to the NAVHDA system. I have perfect confidence that my American bred GSPs would do fine in the JHGV tests and could even earn a KS if properly prepared. Of course my dogs, which have a lot of overlap with Rick's dogs - hit German hege-haus blood about three generations back and German KS dogs about 4 generations back. Not because we needed anything special from the German blood, but because we didn't see any difference in the blood at all and good GSPs were good GSPs - German or American.

That is why I find talk about mental stability and hyperactivity a bit laughable. There are certainly problems with these in the trial GSPs, but if you don't like those pointer-like characteristics don't buy a GSP from trial lines. Those characteristics are no more characteristics of the traditional American GSP than they are of the DK. My own dogs routinely sit with me in the duck blind, hunt upland birds, and have admirably tracked wounded big game (though technically illegal in AZ). They have also killed coyotes and cats, though I don't encourage this at all. (they also try to retrieve fish I have caught -and I can't seem to break them of this). They are lying, non-hyperactively, at my feet as I type this.

The point being that if you want to compare the DK to the field trial GSP - yes I'd agree that you can make the case that its a different breed. I believe that when the DNA analysis gets sophisticated enough, you'll find it is nearly as much pointer as GSP. However, if you want to compare it to the traditional GSP that many of us have been breeding for years for hunting rather than competition - you don't have a leg to stand on. Please don't tar me with the GSP field trial brush.

ByeDog · Post by **ByeDog** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 11:10 pm

So Dave,

What do you really think about trial bred GSPs? :roll:

Some of what you say about trial bred GSPs is true just as it is for some non trial bred and some DK's, but me thinks you over generalize a bit much.

Not all trial bred GSPs are hyper, trial bred GSPs will retrieve both fur and feather on land and from water, trial bred GSPs will track both fur and feather, trial bred GSPs will sit in a blind and a trial bred GSP is sleepining at my feet as I write this.

Proud owner of a Von Trial Bred GSP

Casper · Post by **Casper** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 11:17 pm

I find it interesting that people have such differing opinions on this type of subject. I do belive that you could telll some slight difference in the 2 types of dogs, take brittanys for instance the american brit in just the scull shape alone there is infact a very different apperance from the french type. Their legs longer and the chest deeper. They were bred this way for our type of hunting.

There are only a handfull of states that allow the use of dogs to find and/or pursue big game but we as Americans fancy different breeds of dogs for their inherent abilities to exel at that task. Many who persue deer may prefer a cur or corsing(sp?) hound because they are better adapt to that kind of hunting.

I dont feel that my feild trial breed GSP should be trained to hunt rabbits or track a wounded deer I feel it is my resposebility to make an ethical kill when I hunt big game. Rabbits, well I dont need to go there. :gib:

As stated in an earlier post the DK was actualy the POOR MANS dog. They needed a dog that would do all they asked of it cause they couldnt feed several dogs to exel at different types of hunting they had mouths to feed and they had to make do with what they had. East Europe may even still have laws governing the use of a hunting dog and that may be why they still breed for the versatility. We dont need that kind of dog. That is why pointers make the best quail dogs, setters the best grouse dog and GSPs make the best chukar dog nuf said.

Dogs have always helped us persue critters for sport and out of neccesity but do we need to breed for the versatility, no but if that is what you fancy then so be it.

They are two dogs from two different countrys

Margaret · Post by **Margaret** » Sat Jul 09, 2005 1:36 am

They are not two dogs from two different countries, unless one country had introduced another breed to further the owners
search for fame.

The difference is only in that the DK is tested for specific attributes, attributes that make the breed. Only dogs that are satisfactory in all aspects of requirements can be bred and registered with the breed club, the mother club.

Others are bred oft times by people who say "I don't hunt rabbits", or "I don't hunt deer", or "I don't hunt quail" or "I don't hunt" and so why should I bother? " My dogs are just as good in fact I have improved them in some things"

I was chatting to the business manager of VDD and mentioned GWP and was scolded. They are Deutsch Drahthaar, I was told

Incidently, you use Versatile dogs to stalk deer, not run them.
All the dog has to do is indicate scent. tell you that you may be about to walk past an animal. And if you wound one the dog can track it, on leash if need be.

Marg.

Gun Dog Forum

Whats the DIfference

Whats the DIfference

Brenda

Difference in objectives also.

Re: Whats the DIfference

As someone who has been with the breed since before DKs