Bull legged Vizsla

fdsjr · Post by **fdsjr** » Wed Jun 22, 2005 9:56 am

I have a Hungarian Vizsla pup, hes 7 1/2 weeks. Hes bull legged when he runs. Its not all the time, just now and then. Will this go away??

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Wed Jun 22, 2005 10:31 am

What is "bull legged." Do you mean "bow legged?" If you mean front legs are slightly bowed out, that is generally considered a good trait in a bird dog with run.

fdsjr · Post by **fdsjr** » Wed Jun 22, 2005 2:59 pm

What I mean by bull legged sometimes his back legs are to the side when he runs, but his front legs are normal.

MNGSP · Post by **MNGSP** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 12:16 pm

I am also curious about this. My girlfriends 3 yr old Lab does this too, and I was wondering if it affects their stamina in any way.

Jon

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 12:26 pm

See all kind of weird looking gaits in puppies, that straighten out as they mature, including stepping on their own front feet with their back ones and going nose down in the dirt. Would not worry too much about it in a 7 1/2 week old. They are just figuring out what stuff they need to get out of the way of what other stuff, in order to go.

Have not seen it in a three year old, except in short cornering spurts. Don't have a clue about that.

birddog · Post by **birddog** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 12:33 pm

I would suggest taking your pup to a Vet and have him checked. What you say does not sound normal. Not being a Vet I do not want to alarm you but if they appear to run like a rabbit it is an indication of a hip problem. The 3 year old Lab could be x-rayed.

Janet

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 12:37 pm

fdsjr wrote:What I mean by bull legged sometimes his back legs are to the side when he runs, but his front legs are normal.

The rear legs both to one side of the center line like an airplane flying in a crab

Head
|| <= front legs
// <= rear legs

or

the rear legs equally splayed out from the center line in their respective directions like the dogs hocks are very angled in (cow hocked)?

Head
|| <= front legs
\ / <= rear legs

Best regards,

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 1:44 pm

I have to say, I have had disappointing results taking dogs that young to the vet for hip eval. By disappointing, I mean incorrect diagnoses in both directions - good hips diagnosed as bad, and bad hips being diagnosed as good. The latter is the big problem, if you go ahead and sell the pup to someone.

If it is bad hips, the problem is not going to go away or get cured anyway. Only choices are destroy the dog, or keep a dog with bad hips (can get them replaced in dogs now, but I think that is getting way ahead of things here).

OFA has a min. age limit on hip evals. Don't remember for sure, but think it is 1 year. Could be 6 mo's. That is because they are changing too much at this age. Would just wait it out for now. High chance it is nothing, and may just be the pup being playful.

Any vets on this site have a smarter idea?

fdsjr · Post by **fdsjr** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 6:58 pm

Greg Jennings wrote:
fdsjr wrote:What I mean by bull legged sometimes his back legs are to the side when he runs, but his front legs are normal.
The rear legs both to one side of the center line like an airplane flying in a crab

Head
|| <= front legs
// <= rear legs

or

the rear legs equally splayed out from the center line in their respective directions like the dogs hocks are very angled in (cow hocked)?

Head
|| <= front legs
\ / <= rear legs

Best regards,

They are like this

Head
|| <= front legs
// <= rear legs

Casper · Post by **Casper** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 7:07 pm

seems to me that all puppys do this. like thay are having a hard time getting use to those long things under them. from what you described that he is just learning how to run. if he is still doing it at about 6 months then I would have it checked out by a vet.

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 8:44 pm

Most puppies and some dogs move that way because they have enough reach that the hind foot hits the front one so they crap so it doesn't happen. What I am hearing is just normal puppy learning to trot. Remember he wasn't even walking a few weeks ago.

Ezzy

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 11:11 pm

I call it Dog Legging! Seen many of dogs do it! Kinda like a truck that the rear tires are just off to one side a bit.
I don't think you have a problem!

Margaret · Post by **Margaret** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 11:15 pm

7.5 weeks they usually trot along nicely, I find that when they go throught the big growth spurts pups will look "up in the bum
end" and often at a canter the hind legs come down outside the front legs (V).

I would be worried about a 7.5 week pup crabbing, mind you
if pups tired it may be a result.

Marg

birdshot · Post by **birdshot** » Fri Jun 24, 2005 2:47 am

when tired, most good bird dogs and most hounds walk the way fdsjr described. I would not worry about it. sounds like you have the pick of the litter.

Grey Ghost · Post by **Grey Ghost** » Fri Jun 24, 2005 6:26 am

OK, this thread has me totally freaked out and doing research on HD. This may sound like a ridiculous question, but can anyone describe what exactly "bunny hopping" looks like? My 19 mo. old weim has a "normal" trot, but when running at full speed she looks like a jack rabbit. To use Greg's symbols, she looks like this:

Head
\ / Rear
|| Front

Head
|| Front
\ / Rear

Head
\ / Rear
|| Front

Both hind legs appear to move at the same time and they are wide apart (outside the front legs). I've seen other dogs run similar to that, but never to the extreme that she takes it to. Until now, I never thought this was a problem, but rather something she did to generate more power. As I said, her trot is "normal". This is something she does either at high speed or when playfull (say when fetching in the house).

Now my neighbor's lab, who does have bad hips, keeps both hind feet close together and barely moves her hind legs, which makes her rear end bounce up and down. This is not what my dog does.

So, are either of those two scenarios "bunny hopping"? Shoud I be concerned?

Thanks,
Bill

Bird Dog 67 · Post by **Bird Dog 67** » Fri Jun 24, 2005 7:26 am

Not that you shouldn't keep an eye on it Bill, but my Weim did the same thing until he was about 2. It seems to be about the same time that max growth was reached and he started to lose most of his puppiness. Sometimes I just think they feel like being "bouncey" when they run. btw, glad to see another Weim owner here!

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Jun 24, 2005 7:36 am

Bill,

That is a normal gait for a dog that is running. Their backfeet strike the ground infront of their front paws so they have to keep the back feet spread to miss the front feet that are close together. They call that reach and that is where the running dog gets its speed and power. It also is why we look for good anglelation in the back legs to provide the reach that is necessary for a sporting dog that needs to cover a lot of ground.

Sounds like your dog has excellent movement and hope it doesn't change. By the way, this is exaxtly opposite of what a dog with HD would do. Like you said the lab doesn't move its back legs anymore than possible because the hips are bad and it hurts to move them.

Ezzy

Grey Ghost · Post by **Grey Ghost** » Fri Jun 24, 2005 8:34 am

Thanks for the replys. I'm breathing easy again.

Bird Dog,
I've lurked for a while, but I think it's time I joined the conversation intead of just eavesdropping. Thanks for the welcome.

Ezzy,
Your point about that being the opposite of HD is what I always thought (until reading about "bunny hopping"). It seems that would put more stress on the hips, but I really appreciate hearing that from you. While I resist going to the doctor for myself, I'm a real hypochondriac when it concerns my dog.

Thanks again,
Bill

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Fri Jun 24, 2005 9:03 am

fdsjr-

Thinking about it, my 3 year old shorthair will sometimes do your "bull legged" gait when she is coming down a road in what Tennessee Walker owners would call a running walk, that is, the gait between a flat walk, and a canter or gallop (full run). She has excellent hips, and runs like a banshee in the field. Don't think it is a worry at all.

Anyone ever see a St. Bernard pup, up to a year plus? Besides slobbering all over, they can't seem to get their feet out of the way of each other and frequently spontaneously go nose down in the dirt. Rear legs overstep, front foot plants on rear foot, then can't move rear foot, so down they go. Then up they come, ready to play. Is pretty normal.

Ever watch a human toddler when first walking? They have a little bit of what is called a Trendlenberg gait, a side to side sway caused by lack of developed strength in the hip muscles, esp. adductors.

We see gaits develop and change quite a bit through about two. Frankly, is so normal I have to stop and think about it. Dog generally reaches max "frame" growth at about 9 mo's., then fills out. We also see gait changes with physical conditioning, so dogs that are trialed, run alot, roaded alot, develop a really superior run gait in 6 - 12 mo's. of conditioning, dogs that spend alot of time on the bed, like my current model, may have a little rocking horse, or bounce, or something, that goes away if you condition the dog. Like the difference between Michael Johnson running and a couch potato running.

Hip Displaysia is malformation of the hip joint, or outright dislocation. Am all too familiar with it personally. The principle symptom, as others have noted, is unwillingness to move, caused by pain. More likely, in pups, to see a pup either dragging its legs, or displaying fearfulness and defensiveness when approached.

Casper · Post by **Casper** » Fri Jun 24, 2005 8:12 pm

From what you described seems like a dog at full tilt. Since 4 legged animals are built differant than us their run is powered from the arch of the spine where we power from the legs. When your weim wants to go real fast she has to spread her hind legs to get them in front as far as he can. She will arch her spine and when her rear legs touch down she thrusts her spine straight and pushes with her rear legs. I call it 3rd gear

If you can, video her from the side and watch it in slow mo it should explain its self

ourhunters · Post by **ourhunters** » Fri Jun 24, 2005 9:38 pm

I swear that's a weimy thing. Maybe not, but ours has always run like a bunny. I think something's wrong with ours, besides running like a rabbit. He looks more comfortable running than walking. When he walks his whole body moves from side to side, and his back legs turn inward more than anything. Just don't know about him!

Margaret · Post by **Margaret** » Sat Jun 25, 2005 1:13 am

A greyhound has a particular flying gallop and build which brings the hindlegs well under the dog for push, and a bit outside the front legs.

Gundogs should not be built like a greyhound, and they do not run this way.

The hind legs ideally should land in or close to the track of the front paws.

I would say at a guess, the dogs which have to spread their hind legs to avoid hitting the front legs may well be lacking in balanced
movement - that is the front reach does not equal the back drive.

When dogs are playing at running fast they do look funny, mine
seem to throw their heads up in the air and tuck their bums in and gallop like they are really motoring, but slow as wet week compared to when they are truly running fast (like after a rabbit

)

Marg

Grey Ghost · Post by **Grey Ghost** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 7:24 am

Margaret wrote:When dogs are playing at running fast they do look funny, mine seem to throw their heads up in the air and tuck their bums in and gallop like they are really motoring, but slow

With their bums nearly hitting the ground? Mine does this (with her hind legs spread incredibly wide) if she's been cooped up for too long. This is really just a more extreme version of her normal run. But she's awfully fast like this too.

I've seen plenty of dogs run before, but I've never seen any run quite like mine. Maybe it is puppy exhuberance (which is what I always thought in the past) or it could be 3rd gear (the only dog I've seen in person, as opposed to on t.v., running faster is a Whippet).

I was never concerned about HD (given her speed and tendency to get airborne) until I started reading about it and seeing the words "bunny hopping".

If her front legs are too short for her hind legs, I guess I can live with that.

-Bill

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 7:53 am

My Setter does this as well but only when I am playing with her. It is usually dont when she needs a quick burst of speed.

Wireviz_lady · Post by **Wireviz_lady** » Thu Jun 30, 2005 11:21 pm

With their bums nearly hitting the ground? Mine does this (with her hind legs spread incredibly wide) if she's been cooped up for too long. This is really just a more extreme version of her normal run. But she's awfully fast like this too.

We call it the turbo Vizsla! They get a little brain cramp and take off running like a banshee in cirlces. Nothing to worry about...of course my grace still pulls out the turbo puppy once in a while when she is feeling spunky.
Just enjoy the show. It really is pretty fun to watch them loose their minds like that. All my viz have done it at some time or another. Really funny when 2 are doing it at once and start haveing collisions! [/quote]

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