Black......

[honeyrun]

I just got word last evening that the "inclusion of the color black" into the GSP breed standard as an acceptable color did not pass. I do not know what the vote margin was.

[tfbirddog2]

That AKC being dummies.My two friends had that pictures of their all black gsps to show them that they were all black to get them papered and I jsut bought one myself and will have to do the same, but when everyone that bought white and blacks from me two years ago they just had to call and get a number what bone heads.How long before AKC gives in and accepts them.

[original mngsp]

It's not the AKC, it's the parent club the GSPCA that sets the breed standard.

Black GSPs can be registered, compete in all field and performance events, the color is just a disqualification in the show ring.

So unless a person plans on showing thier dog, why would you care about the color being a disqualifacation anyway?

[Rodger]

It's not the AKC, it's the parent club the GSPCA that sets the breed standard.

Black GSPs can be registered, compete in all field and performance events, the color is just a disqualification in the show ring.

So unless a person plans on showing thier dog, why would you care about the color being a disqualifacation anyway?

Absolutly correct..

From the GSPCA Breed Standard..

Color
The coat may be of solid liver or a combination of liver and white such as liver and white ticked, liver patched and white ticked, or liver roan. A dog with any area of black, red, orange, lemon or tan, or a dog solid white will be disqualified

If the standard were modified to accept Black, should it also accept other varriations like orange and lemon?

Rodger

[original mngsp]

Rodger, personally I don't mind a good black gsp but I hope the standard never gets changed either.

Orange and lemon? No way, yikes.

[Rodger]

Chris, I’m have the same opinion, though I also think you might be setting a undesirable precedence by changing the standard as it applies to color.

Rodger

[AHGSP]

Geeesh Cindy, you must get your info from the Pony Express if you didn't hear until last eve! I'm funnin, I'm funnin!!!!
I may have this mixed and can't 100% verify accuracy, but the Vote was either 57.3, or 53.7% for Black; unsure of the actual %, but there were actually a very small number of No/Against votes; but a very large number of Unmarked? Votes that were neither for or against? Don't know what that was all about and since I'm not at the NSS, will have to wait for the Official report.

In hindsight, I'm kind of glad it failed, as there have been a few that are already concerning themselves with Show potential in the Black dogs with no regard for Field Abilities and breeding as such. Guess they want to be the "VERY 1ST BLACK SHOW CH!" Oh brother... :roll:

On a side note:
Beth Ritchie was re-elected as GSPCA VP, Cynthia McCracken was elected as GSPCA Secretary, June Johnston was elected as E.C. Director, Gene Moseley was elected as S.C. Director and Karen Niffenegger was elected as N.W. Director.

TFT,
Pix required? I've bred a half dozen litters with Black pups and have yet to have to do anything like that and have had NO PROBLEMS with Registration of any pups. Are you using the "Alternate Color" code for color?

[phermes1]

I understand that black is considered acceptable in Germany, correct? If so, what was the reasoning behind making it DQ in the US?

I'm not a GSP person, obviously - just curious. Personally, I find black GSP's very striking.

[Rodger]

Phermes1, I believe some of the original intent was to screen for possible EP crosses. Same for red, orange lemon and tan.

As for what they do in Germany.... Personally I'm happy with the American Shorthaired Pointer, just the way it is.

Rodger

[wems2371]

I understand that black is considered acceptable in Germany, correct? If so, what was the reasoning behind making it DQ in the US?

I'm not a GSP person, obviously - just curious. Personally, I find black GSP's very striking.

This is all I have ever read about too, about it being accepted in Germany. I'm amazed how many people think that just because it would get approved, everyone would breed trash and lose hunting instinct. That happens everywhere with everything. There's always the upside and downside. To me it seems the AKC rules are pretty hypocritical. How can it only be 1/2 way. And is everyone pretty positive that just because they have a liver--that it wasn't outcrossed somewhere back in it's pedigree 40 years ago. I would be interested in getting a black, but want to roam in both worlds, so I won't.

I've seen quite a few hunting dogs with poor conformation in some of the events I've attended. I've seen dogs that toed out severely in the front, had no hock angulation in the rear, toothpicks for legs, etc. I've read about some genetic ailments here too. I've been on this forum a few months now, and don't see much hoopla about that destroying the breed.

I am NOT saying that hunting dog people are all bad breeders--otherwise I'd sign off this sight right now and turn in my newly minted membership card. I'm the first one to click on the "perfect pedigree" signature to see bloodlines or other posts by the member to see what they're doing with their dogs..............so I know those striving for the best of both worlds are on here. I also know that you don't have to show to have a show quality dog that meets the GERMAN SHORTHAIRED POINTER standards. I'm not saying your dog has to be shown to be quality, but just because it is shown.................doesn't make it any less quality than the field dog that never shows. Call me crazy, but it seems to me that both sides shouldn't look at the other as ruining the breed................but conspire to make it better. Denise (idealist )

As an edit, I'd like to ask--If you breed your black to a liver...........and I buy a liver puppy from the litter...........I can show it right? So what sense does that make? Still have that supposed outcrossing in there right?

[AHGSP]

Denise,

It is not the AKC, it is the GSPCA and it's Membership.

Do a search on my post and I think you'll find where I stand quite easily.

That said, I've had these conversations far too many times and will proudly present you with my torch, so that you may carry on
My head hurts from beating it against a brick wall of ignorance, personal agenda's and/or politics.

Bruce(Idealist)

[Rodger]

To me it seems the AKC rules are pretty hypocritical. How can it only be 1/2 way.

Denise, Read Chris's 3rd post in this thread. If you believe Black GSP's should be allowed in the show ring, then join the GSPCA and vote in favor of removing Black as a disqualification. It'll probably be put to another vote next year.

Rodger

[BigShooter]

My head hurts from beating it against a brick wall.

Bruce(Idealist)

Bruce quotes:

"If you do what you've always done, you'll get what you've always gotten"
Mark Twain

Bruce,

I previously suggested a way to get more votes next time around. It would not necessarily help a current "black" breeder or someone that wants a "black" DC today but if the quest is not personal but purely "idealistically" for the improvement of the American GSP breed then IMHO whether implemantation is next year or approved for a date five or ten years from now makes little difference to the breed.

Here's an example of what I meant:

I would be interested in getting a black, but want to roam in both worlds, so I won't.

IMO a "certain" implementation date has value in deciding whether to get a black or not.

I hope you will consider this in the manner it is intended, as a friendly suggestion.


Mark

[wems2371]

As an edit, I'd like to ask--If you breed your black to a liver...........and I buy a liver puppy from the litter...........I can show it right? So what sense does that make? Still have that supposed outcrossing in there right?

Bruce, I will check into your previous posts to see where you're coming from. Am I correct in the above? I stand corrected on the GSPCA thing, I wasn't thinking about them overseeing the AKC showring rules. Had brain issue for a moment on that one. I maintain my overall thoughts on the issue though.

And yes, I believe there are some pretty darn fine black dogs out there and not basing my thoughts on a fad. I just saw one at my NAVHDA mock test 3 weeks ago. He was gorgeous and knew what birds were. I think everyone's got their preferences, like I will never want a liver that isn't ticked--just don't like 'em too white. So you think I'm giving up quality for color? No way! There are how many litters of gsp pups born every year, and I'm a consumer who sticks to her guns. If I stick to my standards and wait for the right pup for me..............I can get conformation, birdiness and the color I want all in one package.

I don't think you have to be an "idealist" to see what would seem to be fair and sensical across the board--and want those same rights. Unfortunately, I was a member for last year (when I got my first gsp), but didn't get anything out of it except IMO a lightweight, fluff magazine. Budget was a little tighter so I opted out this year..........sorry. To new to that to know about the vote. Denise

[tfbirddog2]

AHGSP, when my two friends bought litter mates that are both solid black and called AKC for the number for the papers the lady on the phone to both of them said, there was no such thing as a all black GSP and wanted to send a pic to verify the dog was real, then they gave them a code.

[PrairieGoat]

If having black gsps in the show ring does what it did for the Irish Setter and Golden Retriever then I am all for the ban!

Personally, if someone out there has a neon green one that is a bird finding machine that they want to get rid of, give me a call........heck, I'll even take neon pink!!! :roll:

[ezzy333]

Personally, if someone out there has a neon green one that is a bird finding machine that they want to get rid of, give me a call........heck, I'll even take neon pink!!! :roll:

I've got some orange and white ones that you would like.

Ezzy

[markj]

I want a hunter orange one

Lots of blacks out there now. Soon it will pass and they will be allowed. Justtakes a little time.

[PrairieGoat]

I've got some orange and white ones that you would like.

Ezzy

That's ok.....I'm kind of partial to the neon green ones, they go with the fluorescent yellow bicycle pants I wear while hunting!

[Wagonmaster]

A change in the standard requires 2/3rds of the membership, not just 2/3rds of those voting. You are going to need to motivate some people to get those kinds of numbers. So let me suggest what I have suggested before. There is nothing stopping anyone from finishing a black or black and white as a Field Champion or Amateur Field Champion. But to my knowledge it has never been done. There have been a couple of dogs with points on them, but the blacks are basically such sorry excuses for hunting dogs that they just can't compete.

Bring them out to the trials and start to finish some. Show us they are real dogs. Then you will get trialer votes. Right now, we don't really care to see the breed backstep thirty or forty years just for the sake of a coat color.

[PrairieGoat]

...the blacks are basically such sorry excuses for hunting dogs that they just can't compete...

Couldn't agree more.....could all the people that have black dogs with VC, INT CH, MH, etc. just send them to an address I'll give you. Clearly, they are such terrible hunting dogs that I should probably sacrifice myself and take them off your hands!

Oops....got caught by a troll!

[tfbirddog2]

I here you PG darn trolls.Are we being serious that blacks cant hunt? Anyone ever heard of Outback Kennels hes doing some winning with black ones.

[wems2371]

[quote="Wagonmaster"]There is nothing stopping anyone from finishing a black or black and white as a Field Champion or Amateur Field Champion. But to my knowledge it has never been done. There have been a couple of dogs with points on them, but the blacks are basically such sorry excuses for hunting dogs that they just can't compete. Bring them out to the trials and start to finish some. Show us they are real dogs.[quote]

Wow, don't hold back. Don't be afraid to offend the members of this site who have blacks.

First of all, I don't play your format of doggie games........and don't care too........so you wouldn't see me there. To each there own on that one. Secondly, while I have not done my own research, if Prairiegoat is right--it sounds like there are blacks that have proven themselves in the VC and MH programs. Not sure how that makes them any less of a hunting dog than those that participate in your venue. Thirdly, how many of the accomplished liver field trialing dogs out there have black somewhere in their background. While it may be minimal, are these dogs tarnished? And fourthly, we have to talk about odds. How many livers vs blacks are entered in your doggie games? Give me some factual figures. If 30 dogs compete with 28 livers and 2 blacks, and both blacks fail--are you still counting that along with the 5+ livers that failed? I'm pretty sure, due to the topic of this thread, that there is no where nearly a porportionate # of dogs to make a sound comparison to. Not to mention, you must be familiar with the skill levels of the trainers of this small percentage of dogs as well, to know that lineage alone was the reason this dog failed.

Sounds like you would like to see black abolished from the breed, that's your opinion--and I'm fine with that. But I still can't figure out the gray area that says you can breed, register, hunt test/trial, obedience, etc--but are kept from one arena. But yet a liver bred from blacks, can do all of the above. Denise

[fuzznut]

The bigger question is.. how many owners of black dogs are members of the GSPCA? If you are not a member, then you have no vote. If you are not a member then obviously you really don't care enough about this issue.

So those who are not members shouldn't be complaining about what the GSPCA does or does not do.

Those who are members appear to be in the minority and until they make their case strong enough, or prove to the majority of the membership that their black dogs are good for the breed, it will probably not change.

[Wagonmaster]

Let me get this straight for you again. Blacks are currently abolished from the breed. They are not in the standard. To get the 66% you need to get them in the standard, you need to get 66% of the votes of all the members, not just 66% of the votes of members who actually vote on the issue. So you need to motivate some people who don't bother to vote, not only to actually vote, but to vote for black. That includes us field trialers who are members of the GSPCA. So quit crying about theory and how things should be and get out there and do it. Field trialers don't care spit what color the dog's coat is, and there is nothing in the field trial rules prohibiting you from running black coated dogs today. We do care that the dog is a genuine GSP. We care most of all that the dog can prove itself in the field. So if you want to get our votes, bring the dogs out and show what they can do. If you don't want our votes, then stay home and keep writing on the Internet about how things should be in your view of a perfect world. When voting time comes again, we will stay home too.

I vote. You have two choices. You can call me names for not agreeing with you. Or you can come out and show me and all the others like me. If you come out and show me, your dogs are going to be judged to the same standards as all the other GSP's and all the "Rip Rap" black and white pointers we have looked at over the years. Can they do it.

Shakespeare once wrote, "The fault, Dear Brutus, is not in our stars, but in ourselves, that we are underlings."

[Huntemup Chuck]

I didn't know field trailing was the only way to judge a dog, I guess we should tell NAVHDA, NADKC, DKV and AKC to stop doing their test because some guys on this forum say it's the only way to test a dog hunting ability. I will call them now and tell them it's all wrong because field trailing is the only way to judge a dog worth :roll:, Just remember some of the best shorthairs came from Germany and guess what? Black has always been in Germany among some of the best

[Rodger]

Certainly trials aren’t the only way to judge a performance, but what some folks consider to be a terrific hunting dog with a SH, MH or VC testing title, MAY not impress others that have regulary judged and hunted over some of the most extreme field GSP’s in the country. I’ll ackowledge that there may well be exceptions, but as a rule though, testing and competing stock are worlds appart. I found this to be the case myself, as I started out in testing with my first 2 GSPs that were personal hunting compainions. Sure, they pleased me and put a good many birds in the bag which is all fine and good, but after attending some trials, watching those performances and later hunting over some of those dogs, I found there is no comparison in terms of endurance, hunting abiltiy and style. I’ve ran in FT’s as well as MH events. I’ll bet many others on this board have found the same.

I’ll also have to agree with what the earlier statement about bench shows being detrimental to some breeds, like the Irish Setter for example. Right now the folks that have the Black shorthairs might want to consider not being allowed in the confirmation ring a blessing. They can at least lay claim that they’re bloodlines have yet to be deluted like those of the liver variety. So be careful what you wish for. As others have stated, if they start putting some FC and AFC titles on those dogs and begin placing them in 1 hour Championships, they could very well be the cream of the crop someday, but IMO, they first need to prove themselves beyound the testing events.

Rodger

[phermes1]

Another stupid question - how did black come to be associated with poor field ability in GSPs?

I haven't seen enough black GSPs to have an opinion. A friend of mine has a few, and I THINK one of them made the GSPC top 10 derby several years ago. I don't know much about that dog other than it did NOT lack for range.

[snips]

The worst problem I see with Black is that there are alot of "hobby breeders" that have jumped on the bandwagon of breeding it for the "Fad factor". That sucks IMO. They know nothing of reputible bloodlines and really do not care, just so they can pop out black and stick a 1000. pricetag on them. There are a handful of decent breeders out there trying to breed with a purpose, but just a handful. It makes no difference to me whether it passes or does'nt, I do not care for the black dogs in the south for the heat factor. I do not see Field Trialers going for anything black/white so that may be a real big reason they are not doing much in FT's. The testers are no doubt breeding the nicest dogs straight from the German lines, but they have no desire for a FT dog.

[Rodger]

That last time I saw a BW GSP place in trial was at the 2003 GSPCA Natl Futuritly when Moon won it. The 4th place dog was a BW GSP, but don't remeber hearing anything about it after that. I tried to google and find it, but nothing. Maybe that was the top 10 derby that Phermes1 mentioned.

Edited...

Here it is. It was in 2002.

FUTURITY
Judges: Steve Short & George Wilson

1. Uodibar's Shoot the Moon
(KB's Rockin Rollin Rebel x FC Uodibar's Joey Girl)
Breeder: Frank Vicari
Owner/Handler: John Rabidou

2. Waycool's Blackrock Ino Ikan
(FC/AFC Rusty's Blue Earth Rexx x Lars Idu Agneskan)
Breeder: Dr. M. Parl Larson
Owner: Doug Favor
Handler: Dan Hoke

3. True Blue's Lady Liberty
(Rexx's Freeflight Chief x Slick's Cajun Desire)
Breeder: Blake & Suzanne Biggs
Owner: Mark & Kelly Copeland
Handler: Keith / Robbi Gulledge

4. Pinecreek's Infinite Justice
(FC/AFC Ravenwood White Knight x Regina vom Riverwood, JH)
BreederA: Joy Clay
Owner: Charlotte Epley
Handler: Ed Hart / Perry Williamson




Rodger

[Wagonmaster]

I didn't know field trailing was the only way to judge a dog, I guess we should tell NAVHDA, NADKC, DKV and AKC to stop doing their test because some guys on this forum say it's the only way to test a dog hunting ability. I will call them now and tell them it's all wrong because field trailing is the only way to judge a dog worth , Just remember some of the best shorthairs came from Germany and guess what? Black has always been in Germany among some of the best

I agree with you that black comes from DK's. Another thing you should consider if you really want a vote for black to succeed, is whether NADKC/DKV attacks on American bred shorthairs in the last few years are going to get you where you want to be. It really hasn't worked that well for you so far. It has been pretty clear that a prime motivating factor for the push to allow black coats in the last few years, has been a very small number of DK kennels that stand to make money from it, and whose favorite pitch in selling dogs is to knock the American dogs.

Yes, that is a strategy that will really get you votes.

[PrairieGoat]

Let me get this straight for you again. Blacks are currently abolished from the breed. They are not in the standard. To get the 66% you need to get them in the standard, you need to get 66% of the votes of all the members, not just 66% of the votes of members who actually vote on the issue. So you need to motivate some people who don't bother to vote, not only to actually vote, but to vote for black. That includes us field trialers who are members of the GSPCA. So quit crying about theory and how things should be and get out there and do it. Field trialers don't care spit what color the dog's coat is, and there is nothing in the field trial rules prohibiting you from running black coated dogs today. We do care that the dog is a genuine GSP. We care most of all that the dog can prove itself in the field. So if you want to get our votes, bring the dogs out and show what they can do. If you don't want our votes, then stay home and keep writing on the Internet about how things should be in your view of a perfect world. When voting time comes again, we will stay home too.

Oh, ok......a dog isn't a dog until it runs in FTs? Let me get something straight for you, I've got a black GSP that at 8 months is very capable of hunting and has proven it to me (the only person that matters in this case) time and time again. Another words, FTs and the GSPCA are irrelevant.....the dog is a GSP and hunts. If the GSPCA wants to open their minds and accept this fact, so be it. If not, they will continue to be irrelevent as people that focus on hunting ability rather than coat color will continue to ignore them.

By the way, I found these words in one of your posts awhile back...

"If you want to talk about what you like, fine, we are happy for you that you like it. If you want to knock the other fella's dog, its not appreciated, and it works both ways. Enough said."

In this, we have found common ground.....Enough said!

[tfbirddog2]

VZ you just stated it but a few folks were say they could hunt or and couldnt finish a hunt test, and it got me thinking and scratching the old melon and I remembered seeing something in GunDog Mag,Windrivers-GSP.com Debi Koeberlein TOP PRODUCING"HUNTING TEST DAM" 2000,01,02 SOLID BLACK ,AND 2005 SOLID BLACK.Look her up guys if you never have, awesome looking GSPs and very informative on her GSPCA info,heck maybe she visits here or some of you trialers know or know of her.Not going to point out who said what colors counldnt make grade on test.Snips your right though alot of "backyard breeders" are breeding for the color not the line or hunter just looking for the bling.

[Margaret]

I agree with you that black comes from DK's. Another thing you should consider if you really want a vote for black to succeed, is whether NADKC/DKV attacks on American bred shorthairs in the last few years are going to get you where you want to be. It really hasn't worked that well for you so far. It has been pretty clear that a prime motivating factor for the push to allow black coats in the last few years, has been a very small number of DK kennels that stand to make money from it, and whose favorite pitch in selling dogs is to knock the American dogs.

It's been a while John, but I see you are still furiously rowing your little boat

[Ayres]

Let me get this straight for you again. Blacks are currently abolished from the breed. They are not in the standard. To get the 66% you need to get them in the standard, you need to get 66% of the votes of all the members, not just 66% of the votes of members who actually vote on the issue. So you need to motivate some people who don't bother to vote, not only to actually vote, but to vote for black. That includes us field trialers who are members of the GSPCA.

Actually, John, I read it a different way. Here's the language from Article VIII, Section 2 regarding an amendment to the Breed Standard:
"... The favorable vote of two-thirds (2/3's) of the members in good standing, whose valid ballots are returned within the time limit, shall be required to effect any such amendment..."

So no, you don't need to get more and more people to vote. You only need 2/3's of the votes that were returned within the time limit. To come up with the interpretation you set forth one would have to disregard the phrase "whose valid ballots are returned within the time limit" because it would be superfluous. You know the canons of construction. I guess that shoots down your first theory.

Another thing you should consider if you really want a vote for black to succeed, is whether NADKC/DKV attacks on American bred shorthairs in the last few years are going to get you where you want to be. It really hasn't worked that well for you so far. It has been pretty clear that a prime motivating factor for the push to allow black coats in the last few years, has been a very small number of DK kennels that stand to make money from it, and whose favorite pitch in selling dogs is to knock the American dogs.

And here's the real motivating factor that you've pushed for years. The black coat color doesn't seem to fit your flavor of politics, and it has nothing to do with the dogs.

I've seen you "knock" the black coat color in general, within this very thread. I've yet to see a breeder of black shorthairs "knock" American dogs. I'd like to see an example of what you have obviously taken offense to.

[wems2371]

fuzznut

If you are not a member, then you have no vote. If you are not a member then obviously you really don't care enough about this issue.

I did not realize that having a membership card was the only way I could have an opinion on this forum regarding what I question as hypocrisy. I was a first-time member last year, and would have voted--had it come up during that time. As a one dog owner, who was on a budget, I didn't renew when it came due this year. Sorry I didn't send my $37 in so I could participate in that vote. You can blackball me for that, because I didn't have your economic status at the time. I don't expect anyone here not to follow their heart on that vote................nor to stomp on others.

Wagonmaster

Let me get this straight for you again. Blacks are currently abolished from the breed.

I was trying to use a nicer word such as "abolish" them from the breed, versus using a descriptive word that from reading your posts I would have chose instead: such as extinguish, snuff-out, euthanize, abra cadabra, or "old yellar" them from the breed. Was trying to be kind and gentler and going figuratively, instead of literally.

Wagonmaster

If you don't want our votes, then stay home and keep writing on the Internet about how things should be in your view of a perfect world. You can call me names for not agreeing with you.

Didn't see where anyone called you names. I don't particpate in your venues (again--to each their own)--so you won't see me. Don't even have a black dog, so I can't compete in your venue to prove to you that I could. I thought this was an internet forum that was open to discussion. My "perfect world" includes me standing up for what I believe in, where I can..............when the subject comes up. Didn't say I was right and didn't make any big claims. "Shakespeare once wrote, "The fault, Dear Brutus, is not in our stars, but in ourselves, that we are underlings." Good quote--which is why I keep an open mind. I don't have ALL the answers, and question those who do.

Vzkennels

Takes more then just someone saying I have a good dog & proof is in the records.

Now we're back to whose records are important?--trialers, NAVHDA, MH, etc. Perhaps a thread should be started about trialing being the only way to prove you have a quality dog. I'm guessing that would go on forever. On the flip side, if someone has no conformation competition records in their breeding program, am I to assume they're breeding gsps disguised as say elkhounds (no offense to elkhounds)? To make it clear, that is not a slam against anyone's breeding or operation--I am not judging anyone here. It is a theoretical question regarding records equalling quality. I do not underestimate the value of records, because as a newcomer to the breed I felt they substantially increased my odds of getting a good dog..........but with the knowledge that comes with experience I would hope that a person would not need to rely solely on those records. How many titled dogs make a good dog?

Rodger

Certainly trials aren’t the only way to judge a performance, but what some folks consider to be a terrific hunting dog with a SH, MH or VC testing title, MAY not impress others that have regulary judged and hunted over some of the most extreme field GSP’s in the country. I’ll ackowledge that there may well be exceptions, but as a rule though, testing and competing stock are worlds appart.

Plainly stated, I do not have experience with trials or dogs bred for trials. I didn't think there was a better or best--but it was the style you chose to hunt in that may determine what bloodlines (if you believe in that) you may want to pursue. Your judge may not like my dogs testing style in the trial arena, and my judge may not like your dogs trial style in the testing arena. I don't believe one judge is superior/inferior, nor do I believe the dogs are to each other--assuming both dogs are equally great at what they do.

The worst problem I see with Black is that there are alot of "hobby breeders" that have jumped on the bandwagon of breeding it for the "Fad factor". There are a handful of decent breeders out there trying to breed with a purpose, but just a handful.

I totally get that and agree with it, but can't help but feel empathetic for that handful that is breeding a color that (as I understand) is acceptable in the homeland of origin. I don't know if there's cross info attainable (and it would probably be a full time job to figure out if there was), on registrations of blacks vs livers per year. But I would be curious to see some proportional figures, to give a fair shake to that handful. As with any breed of any animal--IMO there are many undecent breeders who don't look for the full package but rather the dollar factor--from the highpriced fad to the 10 puppies they can only give away at the bargain basement price..........all doing damage to a breed. I know a few. :roll:

As a newcomer, it is disappointing to see the negativity in this thread, from: American vs German, trial vs test, organization vs organization, etc. Obviously this is an emotional issue, and I get that no one wants to see the breed destroyed (assuming you believe black will do that in this country)................although that will be impossible if the good guys/gals keep doing what they're doing. I'm not here to carry the torch, as I don't have any stake in it, and I'm too new to carry it. My first objective is canine quality in the arenas I would like to play in. I'm still working on understanding why the blacks can compete in every venue but the showring (the theory of it--not the vote count)...........Denise

[markj]

About the DKV AKC thing, I saw a litter advertised on this forum in the dogs for sale, it was a line I used to have in the 80s, since I wanted to reg em AKC I was refused a pup. The newer DKV guys are very aloof nose up and all that, saying AKC has ruined the breed. My first GSP came from Germany, was reged AKC and I hunted over him for 8 years.

I do have a black, his Daddy is Cadens Ruger Weltmeister, mom is Casey Vom Beavercreeks. I saw his pic, thought he was dark liver ticked, bought him anyway after finding he was black. He hunts verynice, is being FFed by a pro now.

My second was from hege-haus american breeding sire and dam were Ch with MH and SH titles, she was one of thebest I ever owned and AKC. I will be joining the gspca and will vote next go round if it comes around again. My black got into the kennel my female was in and we had a litter, she is Dixieland Rusty bred and a daughter of a NAFC, I got 300.00 a pup as I cant see charging as much as some do for a pup. We will see ifthey can achieve atitle,I kept a liver ticked pup, he is doing very well. My son is training him, the boy is 5 fetches to hand now, points rock solid and runs huge like his mom.

Thats all I got to say about that. I sure wanted a pup out of that litter, too bad he turned me down, I had a grand just sitting around too. Yep that was what he wanted for a pup.......

Now my cousins are heading to Germany this summer I may get one brought home after all we shall see....

My Wife is German, cousins wife is German and went to college there..

[TrueBlu Shorthairs]

There's been some talk here about black GSPs who are winning and all I've seen evidence of is one dog that took third in our GSPCA Futurity and apparently wasn't heard from again. Someone mentioned some kennel called Outback that I have never heard of at all, but please post pics of their, or anyone else's, black dogs that are winning in any venue. A futurity placement only means the dog had a good day, ran around and pointed a bird, we need to see what happens to the dog once broke, IF ever broke. Natural ability is wonderful, BUT the reality is...what does the dog do in broke stakes. There are many many folks who believe this "Top 10 Puppy/Derby" garbage means something. It means nothing. The dog must be able to take further training!!

A dog that is a wonderful wild bird dog is wonderful. But, if the owner makes this claim, and never proved it in any arena, is like the tree that falls in the forest. Please post pics of black dogs that have done something other than be their owner's best dog ever!

[lvrgsp]

A couple of B & W dogs in some venues. Just posting the sites, do not read into this as it is my opinion on B & W shorthairs.
Thank you very little.

Chip
http://www.outbackgundogs.com/german-shorthair.html
http://www.rockingkennel.com/
http://www.windrivers-gsp.com/

[tfbirddog2]

Lvrgsp put the links up for you TBS.What will the pic prove when you can go the sites and see all the JH,SH, and all the other abbrevation you want to see that everybody has to have these days to be called a real hunter or birddog, black or liver.

[Huntemup Chuck]

by TrueBlu Shorthairs on Fri May 09, 2008 8:33 am
There's been some talk here about black GSPs who are winning and all I've seen evidence of is one dog that took third in our GSPCA Futurity and apparently wasn't heard from again. Someone mentioned some kennel called Outback that I have never heard of at all, but please post pics of their, or anyone else's, black dogs that are winning in any venue. A futurity placement only means the dog had a good day, ran around and pointed a bird, we need to see what happens to the dog once broke, IF ever broke. Natural ability is wonderful, BUT the reality is...what does the dog do in broke stakes. There are many many folks who believe this "Top 10 Puppy/Derby" garbage means something. It means nothing. The dog must be able to take further training!!

A dog that is a wonderful wild bird dog is wonderful. But, if the owner makes this claim, and never proved it in any arena, is like the tree that falls in the forest. Please post pics of black dogs that have done something other than be their owner's best dog ever!

Trueblu here are just a few DK and Shorthairs I hope you enjoy

Kristan KS vom Pöttsiepen
One of Europe's top sires, Kristan passed his excellent conformation and hunting ability along to his get. He has multiple AKC champion puppies and 5 NAVHDA Breeder Awards (4-NA, 1-Utility).

Orson KS vom Pöttsiepen
Test Results
DKV and JGHV
D1, S3, S1, VGP1, IKP1, VBR, BTR, HN, HD0, Fw:SG

Pia vom Pöttsiepen
Test Results
DKV and JGHV
D1, S1, VBR, HN, HD0, Fw:V

Intl. Ch. VC Enzo vom Ludvigstein, MH

Indian Brook's Phantom vom Enzo, NA PZI, UT PZI MH

TT's Rudie n Spirit Benji v Grie 'Cinder'
NAVHDA Titles
NA Prize I
Utility Prize II
AKC, Master Hunter

INT CH VC Sharp Shooters Man in Black
Versatile Champion; UT Prize I 204 pts, NA Prize I 112 pts

INT CH VC Sharp Shooters Prairie Dancer MH
Versatile Champion
UT Prize I 201 pts, NA Prize I 112 pts

INT CH VC Sharp Shooters Funky Diva
Versatile Champion; UT Prize I, 204 pts; NA Prize II

VC Sharp Shooters Spy Girl

INT CH VC Sharp Shooters F-Five, MH

No-Mars Miles V Beaugraf II NA Prize II 107 UT Prize III (15 Months)

Harley vom Beaver Creeks
DKV - D1, S1, VGP1 307 pts, HN, HD-FREI B, V
2007 President's Award and 2007 Ehren Praesident's Gold Medallion, both for having the highest VGP score at NADKC hosted tests during the year.
NAVHDA - NA PZ 1 - 112, UT PZ 3 - 183

Quick KS v Riverwoods

[Huntemup Chuck]

Equal rights in all areas with no question of it's Legitimacy! , in all areas I think Dr. Martin said it best, but here is my version.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all GSP's are created equal."
I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia, the Owners of former NAVHDA and AKC GSP’s and the Owners of former Field Trail GSP owners will be able to sit down together at the table of brotherhood.
I have a dream that one day even the state of Mississippi, a state sweltering with the heat of injustice, sweltering with the heat of oppression, will be transformed into an oasis of freedom and justice.
I have a dream that my four little black GSP’s will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their coat but by the content of their character.
I have a dream today!
I have a dream that one day, down in Alabama, with its vicious racists, with its governor having his lips dripping with the words of "interposition" and "nullification" -- one day right there in Alabama little Black GSP’s boys and black GSP girls will be able to join paws with little white and liver GSP boys and white and liver GSP girls as sisters and brothers.
I have a dream today!