Anyone try any of these dog foods ?

[claybuster_aa]

...
The fact is these designer brand dog foods don't offer anything better, don't have the proven track record that companies like Diamond and Pro Plan have, and don't actually offer what they have sold you which is "better nutrition at twice the price".

None of us on here have anything to gain by trying to persuade people to use what we use, we're just trying to help people like you figure out that you can feed just as well or better at about half the price. CR

A few thoughts:

You mentioned Arkat and Diamond. Arkat is without question a "designer" type feed as you mentioned. Could not find a date, but fairly certain they are a relatively new company, within the past 5 years? I just watched their video, designer to say the least. Diamond has been around since 1970. Abady has also been in the dog food business since 1970. You probably never heard of them prior to my mention is because they don't market to general pop so to speak. But when you speak of proven track records, now that brings up something very interesting. Diamond had the unfortunate mishap of recalls and deaths linked to a corn fungus several years back. In regards to track records, to the best of my knowledge, Abady has never gone through a recall and no killings. So, let's put things in proper perspective, Abady has an outstanding track record. You also mentioned Pro Plan. Despite Purina being around for quite some time, Pro Plan, and the very posh Pro Plan "Selects" has not been around since 1970.

In regards to persuasion, that is the furthest thing from my mind. I will discuss my feed of choice, why I like the product, but that's about it. I would recommend to anyone stick with works best for your dogs. Last thing I want is a spike on Abady sales, which could make it harder
to find and raise some costs? I'm not interjecting my thoughts on a lot of posts here, just a few. There was a recent post on "Hot Spots". I know it is nutrition related. See me jumping in there saying try this or that product?
You folks got it all figured out, throw in your two cents if you want, I'll stay on the sidelines because the next thing you know you're accused of being a salesman or stockholder.

Charlie

[ezzy333]

I know it is nutrition related.

Charlie,

If you know that you are smarter than any one I have ever met. It's well known hotspots are many times an allergy and seldom is it dog food related but could be. There just isn't anyone that can determine the cause from reading about it on the internet.

Ezzy

[claybuster_aa]

I know it is nutrition related.

Charlie,

If you know that you are smarter than any one I have ever met. It's well known hotspots are many times an allergy and seldom is it dog food related but could be. There just isn't anyone that can determine the cause from reading about it on the internet.

Ezzy

Actually, most often the case, a lot of biting and chewing and skin irritations are caused by parasites, like the flea. If not parasite related, then look towards nutrition. Allergy is the convenient scapegoat because when one thinks of allergy, they don't make the connection between allergy and nutrition. Nutrition that is lacking prompts the higher probability of the allergy prone dog.

[levie]

Anybody feed the Diamond Naturals?? been feeding it for a year with great results!

[ezzy333]

Allergy is the convenient scapegoat because when one thinks of allergy, they don't make the connection between allergy and nutrition.

Wonder why that is?

Ezzy

[ohiogsp]

I feed the diamond extreme athlete and have had great results with it. I actually feed less and my dogs look better.

I have switched also and love it so far. I always fed the performance before.

[claybuster_aa]

Allergy is the convenient scapegoat because when one thinks of allergy, they don't make the connection between allergy and nutrition.

Wonder why that is?Ezzy

That's easy Ezzy! Did you every read the ingredients list off of some of the foods they sell at the Vets office. The foods they sell are some of the worst offenders, and they'll keep you coming back to the office! There is no connection between allergies and nutrition, that is how the industry protects itself along with some justification for the cheaper yet wholesome barley, oats and peas. Air borne pollutants and smog, now there is something the Vet may tell ya! Don't blame the seaweed Kelp, good stuff for dogs ya know.

Charlie

[big steve46]

Just remember, a doctoring reality is that "if they are not looking for something, they are not likely to find it."

[ezzy333]

And the other side of that Steve is if you are looking you can find it whether it is there or not.

Charlie, you are the forst person I know of that has discovered a conspiracy in the dogfood business. Here I was right in the middle of it and din't know it. Must not have been looking.

Ezzy

[big steve46]

Ezzy, you have a point but my side is stronger than yours. If you are looking, you might find something and be correct. If you don't look for something, there is little chance of success.

[ezzy333]

Steve,

I don't look for trouble or problems. Once something happens then I look for the cause and try to remedy it. When you look for problems before they happen you get in trouble just like this case. There is enough to keep me busy without looking for things that haven't happened.

Ezzy

[claybuster_aa]

Charlie, you are the forst person I know of that has discovered a conspiracy in the dogfood business. Here I was right in the middle of it and din't know it. Must not have been looking.Ezzy

YES.... now you're catching on! They will sacrifice health and nutrition for the sake of profit. What is important are the stockholders. Now, you told me what you're doing with the profit aspect sharing and kickbacks to the customers, and that is a great thing! But they ain't all like that.

Now if you're here, you have a gun dog, your dogs mean a lot to you, you care, you keep a close eye on them for problems, you're going to be OK. The folks in real jeopardy are those people with the attitude, it's just a dog and grabbing the cheapest stuff they can find in the supermarket. And, that does represent the vast majority of dog owners. I would guess 90%+ of the dog food buyers shop in the grocery or discount stores. You're not going to find the Canadie, EVO, Timber Wolf, Arkat, Pro Plan, Wellness, Royal Canin, etc., in the grocery stores. Those buyers have fewer problems than the grocery store, discount store buyers.

[WildRose]

Charlie have you got ANY idea how many pounds of Diamond Premium are fed every day in this country? Would you even like to guess? I could get you an exact figure right down to the tonage averages for the last yar within 24-48 hours if you like. You are right, a few years ago Aflatoxin in a shipment of corn used by Diamond made some dogs sick. It has never been documented just how many, and there were a few deaths.

This has also been a problem for every other major feed manufacturer at one time or another that uses grains, particularly corn. It's toxin produced by a mold that naturally occurs in grains under certain conditions.

Since I know exactly what happened in the case of Diamond, and more importantly know the steps they have taken to be sure it can never happen again, I'm more confident in their products today than I have ever been.

No Arkat is not a "designer feed" by any means, they are relatively knew to the dog food business but that family has been formulating feeds for livestock for about fifty years. Their dog food formulas, ingredient for ingredient are very similar to Diamond, and Purina, certainly not "designer".

As for "Knowing that hotspots are nutritional" give me a break. Unless you know exactly what the dog has been eating since before the hot spots appeared, and know every thing the dog has been exposed to, you can't even begin an educated guess much less "Know".

Nutritional related hot spots are so rare in any dog that is fed a decent commercial dog food are almost unheard of.

You should also do some research into the price of feed ingredients, Peas and Barley are extremely expensive commodities. They are also extremely nutritious. CR

[claybuster_aa]

...Third-corallary, that there is any performance edge to feeding pointing dogs high-cost foods. If there was any performance edge to feeding a high-cost food to pointing dogs, competitive handlers who live and die by the ability to win would have flocked to it in droves just as the sled dog professionals have all flocked to basically the same "formula". ...
Greg J.

Greg, they flock to the same formula for the PAID endorsements and free food. No musher in their right mind would risk their investments (dogs)
1000 miles in deep snow on commercial or national brands foods. They wouldn't make it to the finish line. The mushers are paid to hopefully try to keep a straight face and say nice things about the products and wear the company logo on their backs. Meanwhile, they use less than 25% of the paid endorsement food, and supplement on the trail with raw meat and fat (beaver and mink) if they have any hopes on finishing the race in good standing and dogs on all fours.

[ezzy333]

Greg, they flock to the same formula for the PAID endorsements and free food

Charlie you are talking to the people you are accusing. As one of these I will tell you it ain't true which I think you should know as practically everyone on the whole board knows it isn't true. We have people on this forum raising, training, handling hunting dogs that are not getting an ounce of free feed. Would be nice if we could but it just doesn't happen, as you know.

Ezzy

[claybuster_aa]

Charlie have you got ANY idea how many pounds of Diamond Premium are fed every day in this country? Would you even like to guess? I could get you an exact figure right down to the tonage averages for the last yar within 24-48 hours if you like. You are right, a few years ago Aflatoxin in a shipment of corn used by Diamond made some dogs sick. It has never been documented just how many, and there were a few deaths.

This has also been a problem for every other major feed manufacturer at one time or another that uses grains, particularly corn. It's toxin produced by a mold that naturally occurs in grains under certain conditions.

Since I know exactly what happened in the case of Diamond, and more importantly know the steps they have taken to be sure it can never happen again, I'm more confident in their products today than I have ever been.

No Arkat is not a "designer feed" by any means, they are relatively knew to the dog food business but that family has been formulating feeds for livestock for about fifty years. Their dog food formulas, ingredient for ingredient are very similar to Diamond, and Purina, certainly not "designer".

As for "Knowing that hotspots are nutritional" give me a break. Unless you know exactly what the dog has been eating since before the hot spots appeared, and know every thing the dog has been exposed to, you can't even begin an educated guess much less "Know".

Nutritional related hot spots are so rare in any dog that is fed a decent commercial dog food are almost unheard of.

You should also do some research into the price of feed ingredients, Peas and Barley are extremely expensive commodities. They are also extremely nutritious. CR

Yes, I am well aware Diamond is a very popular feed and many folks like yourself have had great results. Pro Plan is another feed which many also like and have had great results. I would guess amongst the sporting dog owners, Pro Plan and Diamond are probably the two most popular feeds. The stuff I use is not popular in the sporting dog field I don't think but has its niches elsewhere, one being the K-9 cops.

I also know about the Aflatoxin problem with Diamond and the reasons why it happened. It was blamed on a very dry growing season, which yielded the conditions for the fungus to grow. It was unfortunate, but it is going to happen every now and then I suppose.

Corn, corn gluten, kibbled yellow corn, corn meal, was a one time, long time staple ingredient in feed I use, and I was disappointed to see it go at first. There was a period of a 200-point calorie drop when the corn was pulled and replaced with Pearled Barley. Pearled Barley is more expensive for a manufacturer to purchase (outer hull removed/ gluten source protein) but it was just a temporary move. As soon as the corn went and the Pearled Barley came in, one of my dogs, the little guy, was going after his feet like crazy. Couldn't stop licking his toes. The Barley lasted about 6 months and then White Rice took over as the staple grain (no brown rice, again the outer hull with gluten is avoided in the product).

So, I had figured they had got a heads up on this corn fungus thing, and bailed out of corn 6 months prior to the Diamond announcement of the recalls and the corn fungus problem. Turns out the bailed from corn of completely other reasons, which I KNOW is not going to sit well with you guys, but it is they way the work. Corn is no longer the corn we once knew. It has undergone changes and it must be increasingly more difficult to find God's given corn. It's all lab stuff now, genetically engineered product. Super grow hybrid seeds, cloned seeds, prompted with the need to grow it faster, as we witness a shift into changing times where bio-fuels are in demand. Well, whatever happened to the corn, he decided to get out due to the "natural" aspect. No chemical engineering,
no genetic engineering, it ain't part of the plan...corn is out. Hey maybe there is something to that corn allergy thing I had always thought was strictly myth. Maybe the dogs can tell and in whatever subtle ways, more dogs are having problems with corn when they didn't have those problems in the past.

Nah, you can't convince me that the Akrat, there isn't something going on there. That seems pretty designer if you ask me. Did you happen to catch that part in the video where they mention we don't use any of the grain floor sweepings like the other folks do...I had to laugh when I saw that.

[pear]

Greg, they flock to the same formula for the PAID endorsements and free food

WOW!!! Wish I was getting, "paid" or "free", food from the folks I endorse... "pear"

[claybuster_aa]

Greg, they flock to the same formula for the PAID endorsements and free food

Charlie you are talking to the people you are accusing. As one of these I will tell you it ain't true which I think you should know as practically everyone on the whole board knows it isn't true. We have people on this forum raising, training, handling hunting dogs that are not getting an ounce of free feed. Would be nice if we could but it just doesn't happen, as you know.

Ezzy

If you read the part I quoted from Greg, the reference to paid endorsement is in regards to sled dog mushers. Wait, you mean there are people here who run their dogs in the Iditarod, that were Eagle Pack logos on and Pedigree logos on their backs. Yes, they are paid endorsements and they get free food.

[gwgdog66]

Anybody feed the Diamond Naturals?? been feeding it for a year with great results!

Yes, I use the chicken & rice. I've had very good results.

[levie]

Great food for the money and no corn fillers or no chicken by products!! As far as the Diamond recall, yes there were dogs lost, and i lost one to it, I switched back to Pro Plan for 6 months, but could not keep weight on my setters so i went back to Diamond, the premium adult and when they came out with the naturals line i went to it. Out of all the different feeds that i went through including Eukenuba, Pro Plan and Diamond performance the Naturals has came out on top for me and my dogs.

[big steve46]

Ezzy, Let me claify. What I meant was when the Vet is looking at a case, he should be perhaps looking in areas that he does not normally look at related to the causes of the condition.

[WildRose]

Yes, I am well aware Diamond is a very popular feed and many folks like yourself have had great results. Pro Plan is another feed which many also like and have had great results. I would guess amongst the sporting dog owners, Pro Plan and Diamond are probably the two most popular feeds.

That is probably the most accurate statement you have made.

The reason those are the two most popular brands of feed amongst pointing breed performance folks is because they work so well.

I got this little tid bit in today.

Charles, we produce on average 125 tons per day of the Diamond Premium Adult, and about 30 tons per day of the Diamond Professional (black bag).? Diamond Puppy would be about 50 tons per day.

125 tons =250,000lbs. At an average daily feeding rate of 1lbs per dog that's 250,000 happy healthy cusmers of diamond premium adult, and that's every day, year, after year, after year.

Most of us are not cheapskates by any means. We'll spend what we need to, in order to keep our dogs in top physical condition and to keep their overall health and longevity as high as possible.

We're also not foolish people, if we thought we could get better performance and longevity by feeding 2.00 per lbs kibble we'd do that. After all most of the trialers, and trainers arent' paying out of pocket for their dog food, they expense it to their customers and if they thought the dogs would perform better on something else that's what they'd do.

Like I said, most of my dogs are still hunting hard at and beyond 12 years of age. Several of our stud dogs were still siring quality litters beyond 14 years of age. My bitches routinely are still producing quality litters at 10 yoa or older, and we even had an accidental mating that produced a healthy litter out of a 16yo bitch a couple of years ago.

Bottom line, while it may make some people feel a whole lot better about themselves to spend a whole lot more on dog food than myself and others, there's nothing to show that they are getting any greater value for the additional money spent. CR

[coveycreek]

I've used diamond in the past with good results on many dogs but it didn't agree with the vizslas skin and coat very well. They are somewhat known to be sensitive that way. I am currently feeding Nutrisource and have been having really good results with it. Small stools, firm muscle, healthy skin and coat, clean teeth, clear eyes. Most other dogs in the past saw those same things with Diamond. The best food for you is whatever works best for your dog. Meaning whatever they do the best on is the food you should feed.

[claybuster_aa]

Yes, I am well aware Diamond is a very popular feed and many folks like yourself have had great results. Pro Plan is another feed which many also like and have had great results. I would guess amongst the sporting dog owners, Pro Plan and Diamond are probably the two most popular feeds.

That is probably the most accurate statement you have made.

The reason those are the two most popular brands of feed amongst pointing breed performance folks is because they work so well.

I got this little tid bit in today.

Charles, we produce on average 125 tons per day of the Diamond Premium Adult, and about 30 tons per day of the Diamond Professional (black bag).? Diamond Puppy would be about 50 tons per day.

125 tons =250,000lbs. At an average daily feeding rate of 1lbs per dog that's 250,000 happy healthy cusmers of diamond premium adult, and that's every day, year, after year, after year.

Most of us are not cheapskates by any means. We'll spend what we need to, in order to keep our dogs in top physical condition and to keep their overall health and longevity as high as possible.

We're also not foolish people, if we thought we could get better performance and longevity by feeding 2.00 per lbs kibble we'd do that. After all most of the trialers, and trainers arent' paying out of pocket for their dog food, they expense it to their customers and if they thought the dogs would perform better on something else that's what they'd do.

Like I said, most of my dogs are still hunting hard at and beyond 12 years of age. Several of our stud dogs were still siring quality litters beyond 14 years of age. My bitches routinely are still producing quality litters at 10 yoa or older, and we even had an accidental mating that produced a healthy litter out of a 16yo bitch a couple of years ago.

Bottom line, while it may make some people feel a whole lot better about themselves to spend a whole lot more on dog food than myself and others, there's nothing to show that they are getting any greater value for the additional money spent. CR

Are you trying to persuade me to switch feeds to Diamond? Do you work for the company by any chance? LOL, sorry, I just had to say that, that's what I usually hear! Just joking with you. Seriously though, glad to hear it is all going well, the dogs are doing great and you are happy with the products. I feel my dogs are doing very well also. Outside of some routine shots and some flea stuff, I had to go to the Vet once for a hangnail. My fault, I'm a terrible clipper, and it looked if I went to pull it off possibly a lot of blood, so I let vet clip it back and wrap it. Dogs are doing well, Vet bills are minimal to say the least, so I feel I am doing some good for my dogs. Spending a bit more for feed is NOT about me feeling better about myself or anyone else...it's about the dogs. And when you break it down, it is really not much more expensive. I pay more but they consume less in quantity. You pay X amount for 400 cals per cup, and I pay X amount for 800 cals a cup. Hypothetically, you may need two cups per dog where in need just one. I may take one trip to
purchase feed in 3 months, where another may take two trips to buy feed in 3 months. I am not a wealthy person and punch a time clock everyday for 8 hours. There is no way I could continue to feed what I am doing if I had 3-4 medium size dogs. I can spend the 25-30 a month for feed but no way could I do 75-100 month on feed, I would have to get a second job. That's the reality. Again, I do what I do because I think it is a good approach, but it is not about feel better about myself or anyone else.

Charlie

[WildRose]

You pay X amount for 400 cals per cup, and I pay X amount for 800 cals a cup. Hypothetically, you may need two cups per dog where in need just one.

That would hold true only if the digestibility of all of the ingredients were identical.

We could for example increase the total kilocals of both feeds by adding soy bean meal. We could advertise these feeds as having say 1,200 cals per cup. However since dogs can't digest soy bean meal the net effective gain in doing so would be zero.

I know this. For a 72lbs dog that drags 20lbs of chain six miles three days per week (he doesn't trust the four wheeler enough to run in harness with the rest of the gang so he runs along behind in harness dragging his chains), free runs at least an hour three more days per week, I'm only feeding him 2.5 cups per day of either the Diamond Adult premium or the Arkat enhance professional athlete.

That equals exceptional nutrition for a very reasonable price, since I can get 50lbs of either for less than 22.50 per bag.

No I don't work for diamond and never have, but I'm very good freinds with the Cheif Nutritionist and CEO and have been for about 15 years. CR

[big steve46]

CR is correct! As I've said before, there's more to nutrition than just counting calories. If you pay over $30 for a 50lb of dogfood, you have usually fallen for manufacture's hype.

[ezzy333]

Once again let me remind everyone that calories per cup tells you very little since it is largely dependant on the form of the feed. If we are going to compare feeds we need to compare calories per lb.

As an example lets compare pocorn. If I sell you a pound of unpopped popcorn it will only be 4 cups but if I sell you the same popcorn already popped it will be 100 cups. There will be the same calories in each but because of the different process one is much lighter and less dense till it is eaten. Once it is eaten it will take up the same volume again so the you can eat just as many calories with each but you will like the expanded crunchy already popped corn better. The only difference will be it takes more cups so many people will say it isn't as good as the unpopped. And it just isn't true.

Some foods are pelleted and that compresses the feed which allows the feed to have a lot of calories per cup compared to the same formula run through the expander to make it more palitable to the dog but will have less calories per cup but the same per lb. The difference is the amount or air we get into the feed. So if you feed 1 cup of pelleted or three cups pf expanded the dog is eating the exact same amount of feed and will produce the same waste while getting the same nutrition and yet the pelleted feed has 3 times the calories per cup. And someone will try to tell you the one is better than the other because they only need to feed one cup.

Did you ever notice the high calories per cup feeds come in smaller bags but the same weight as the lower calorie per cup feeds. Just remember calories per cup tell you nothing since we buy the feed by the pound and not the cup.

Ezzy

[Rick Hall]

Here's a feed value bottom line to consider:

From an extremely fit 38lb Brittany (by a size 81/2) -



and from an extremely fit 66lb Chessie -



Tootsie Roll turds.

Digestibility is demonstrated by dry weight in compared to dry weight out, and calories that end up on the lawn are wasted.

[big steve46]

So, your point is? Hope you didn't step in it!

[ezzy333]

Rick,

Hope you didn't need to explain to the neighbors why a grown man is running around the backyard barefoot taking pictures of the rather stingy amounts of dog poop lying in the grass. Just has to be the ultimate goal of the photographer I can see it now, a one man show of the photography of Rick Hall. Be sure to keep us posted as to when and where the showing will be held.

Ezzy

[Rick Hall]

So, your point is?

Digestibility is demonstrated by dry weight in compared to dry weight out, and calories that end up on the lawn are wasted.

"Tootsie Roll turds" are an old-school indicator of feed that's being used, rather than just passing through.

Hope you didn't step in it!

They are also a very good thing if one's dogs share their yard with a heard of grand kids.

[Rick Hall]

Rick,

Hope you didn't need to explain to the neighbors why a grown man is running around the backyard barefoot taking pictures of the rather stingy amounts of dog poop lying in the grass.

I just tell 'em I'm illustrating my scatology doctoral thesis, and they nod and go away thinking I really know my sh...

[coveycreek]

CR is correct! As I've said before, there's more to nutrition than just counting calories. If you pay over $30 for a 50lb of dogfood, you have usually fallen for manufacture's hype.

Guess I have fallen for manufacturer's hype. The proof is in the output both in the field and what is scooped up in the yard. If the food didn't matter then we would all be feeding Ol'Roy.

[ezzy333]

And our dogs would all be healthy too.

Ezzy

[coveycreek]

And our dogs would all be healthy too.

Ezzy

You aren't suggesting that Ol'Roy is a quality food are you?

[ezzy333]

Probably not the greatest but on the other hand they have several different feeds and the ingredient lists looks about like Iams and Purina. And I do know it will provide the nutrition needed to support a healthy dog.

Its funny how we have convinced ourselves that a good feed has to be expensive. I have heard the same thing about pups and most everything else we buy. I just don't think it is always true and if you understood the feed manufacturing business you would have a better understanding of it. Walmart makes their money on volume so they tend to lower prices beyond what smaller places can. But it does not necessarily mean the feed is poorer.

Ezzy

[Rick Hall]

My dogs did better on Walmart's Maxximum Nutrition 30/20 than on a number of brand name 30/20s, but my nearest store quit carrying it. (And Sam's comparable "Exceed" is a two-hour round trip...)

[big steve46]

Quality of food does matter. However, once you get to a good grade food such as Diamond Premium (26-18 with chicken meal first ingredient), you reach a point of diminishing return on better foods that may not make it cost effective. Ol'Roy is not what I call a good grade. Neither is the Ol'Roy Premium. I used to feed the Premium, but had to feed 40%more til I switched to Diamond. Most of the foods sold in Walmart are high. In a rare disagreement with Ezzy, I know that Walmart is a lousy place to buy dogfood. Stay with your local feedstore or farmstore. I think Ezzy and I agree on most things including the reality that most working dogs do very well on most quality feeds whether it's Diamond, Purina, Black Gold, or one of the others. I just think it's silly to pay more than a food is worth.

[coveycreek]

Oh I definitely agree with that... I am willing to pay up to $1/lb to get a quality food where I am. I avoid corn in anything except the performance formulas and then I was it to be limited. Nutrisource is made not too far from where I am and it has been very good so far. Being local it is easy to get fresh product as well since the local places just go pick it up or have it delivered right from the factory rather than it being warehoused. Most of the bags that I get are made within the previous 2 weeks. I find at least some value in that as well. Similar foods that go above and beyond it in price rarely offer me anything more. Since I had my first quality dog when I was maybe 12 I have fed Eukanuba, iams(pre sellout), diamond, pro plan, eagle pack, and nutrisource. I would feed most of them again especially the eagle pack and diamond if I lost my nutrisource.

[claybuster_aa]

Ezzy: Once again let me remind everyone that calories per cup tells you very little since it is largely dependant on the form of the feed. If we are going to compare feeds we need to compare calories per lb.

I agree, however, it is unfortunate, it would seem like 99.9% of the companies don't provide that type information in regards to calories per pound, how many ounces does a standard cup hold, how much does the standard cup weigh, what is the carb content, what is the relationship within the protein core between animal source protein and gluten protein. I do know this type of info, it is all listed on my box of feed. Do other companies provide that type of info?

The product I use lists:

Per Pound: 2143.7 Calories
Per 8 oz. measuring cup: 794.5 Calories
One standard 8 oz. cup holds approx. 5.93 oz.
22.6 Carbohydrate
92.4 of the protein (30%) animal source

It would be helpful for comparison sake if more companies would post that type of info. Why don't they?

Ezzy: As an example lets compare pocorn. If I sell you a pound of unpopped popcorn it will only be 4 cups but if I sell you the same popcorn already popped it will be 100 cups. There will be the same calories in each but because of the different process one is much lighter and less dense till it is eaten. Once it is eaten it will take up the same volume again so the you can eat just as many calories with each but you will like the expanded crunchy already popped corn better. The only difference will be it takes more cups so many people will say it isn't as good as the unpopped. And it just isn't true.

Nice analogy but which feed in this analogy is popped or unpopped?
I would assert, kibbled or pelleted typed feeds clearly in this case are the unpopped. My reasoning there would be expansion type fibers, ie., probably the biggest offender and very common ingredient beet pulp, which can expand up to 250% hydrated (wet in the stomach). Tomato Pomance is another expansion type fiber. Cellulose flour is another culprit. Wet in the stomach with digestive fluids (combine that with a nice drink of water after the meal), your popcorn had popped. Not sure about this? Try an experiment. Take your kibble kernels in a cup and fill the cup to the brim with water. Catch some zzzzz's and check it out in the morning. You should find your cup overfloweth with the popped up kibble.

Ezzy: Some foods are pelleted and that compresses the feed which allows the feed to have a lot of calories per cup compared to the same formula run through the expander to make it more palitable to the dog but will have less calories per cup but the same per lb.

I guess so, but this is a comparison between kibbled or pelleted type products? What I am feeding is not of that consistency.*

Ezzy: The difference is the amount or air we get into the feed. So if you feed 1 cup of pelleted or three cups pf expanded the dog is eating the exact same amount of feed and will produce the same waste while getting the same nutrition and yet the pelleted feed has 3 times the calories per cup. And someone will try to tell you the one is better than the other because they only need to feed one cup.

Kind of reminds me of that of commercial, you can have 1 bowl of Total or 10 bowls of X. What do you think is better? IMO consuming less is best assuming you can get the same.

Ezzy: Did you ever notice the high calories per cup feeds come in smaller bags but the same weight as the lower calorie per cup feeds. Just remember calories per cup tell you nothing since we buy the feed by the pound and not the cup.

No I haven't, my food is not sold in bags, it is a boxed feed.

Charlie


* For those interested, it looks like this:

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c231/ ... G_0005.jpg

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c231/ ... G_0003.jpg

[coveycreek]

No I haven't, my food is not sold in bags, it is a boxed feed.

Charlie

Is that anything like boxed wine?

[claybuster_aa]

[quote="coveycreek] Is that anything like boxed wine?[/quote]

Nasty stuff. Get a bottle.

[WildRose]

My dogs did better on Walmart's Maxximum Nutrition 30/20 than on a number of brand name 30/20s, but my nearest store quit carrying it. (And Sam's comparable "Exceed" is a two-hour round trip...)

Rick when I first moved up here I had to switch to Exceed for a while, while I was working out delivery for Diamond. It is very much on part with the Diamond Adult Premium, and Performance formulas. Also very similar results as I get with the Arkat 30-22 professional athlete.

All priced relatively similar at around 18-22.00 per bag these days. CR

[Rick Hall]

Arkat is one I wanted to like because of its high Kcals and did like because they were nice enough to ship bags of it, rather than pallets, directly to me for what I thought a reasonable price, but it failed the Tootsie-Roll turd test. Was sorry to see them take such a tornado lick a while back, seems a good company.

[slistoe]

First, I would like to say that ezzy needs no help in knowing dog food, but there really is so much misunderstanding in this post.

I agree, however, it is unfortunate, it would seem like 99.9% of the companies don't provide that type information in regards to calories per pound, how many ounces does a standard cup hold, how much does the standard cup weigh, what is the carb content, what is the relationship within the protein core between animal source protein and gluten protein. I do know this type of info, it is all listed on my box of feed. Do other companies provide that type of info?

The product I use lists:

Per Pound: 2143.7 Calories
Per 8 oz. measuring cup: 794.5 Calories
One standard 8 oz. cup holds approx. 5.93 oz.
22.6 Carbohydrate
92.4 of the protein (30%) animal source

It would be helpful for comparison sake if more companies would post that type of info. Why don't they?

Actually many companies do. Is the information from your company digestible energy or metabolizable energy? One of the popular brands being discussed here lists 2173 DE and 2003 ME per pound. They have 543 DE/cup with 4 oz. of feed in a cup.

Ezzy: As an example lets compare pocorn. If I sell you a pound of unpopped popcorn it will only be 4 cups but if I sell you the same popcorn already popped it will be 100 cups. There will be the same calories in each but because of the different process one is much lighter and less dense till it is eaten. Once it is eaten it will take up the same volume again so the you can eat just as many calories with each but you will like the expanded crunchy already popped corn better. The only difference will be it takes more cups so many people will say it isn't as good as the unpopped. And it just isn't true.

Nice analogy but which feed in this analogy is popped or unpopped?

It is a beautiful analogy. As you can see the food you are feeding is much denser than the other one I listed. Whether yours is compressed or theirs is expanded is of little consequence - in the end the kcal/lb are identical - and you pay for the food by the pound and feed calories.

I would assert, kibbled or pelleted typed feeds clearly in this case are the unpopped. My reasoning there would be expansion type fibers, ie., probably the biggest offender and very common ingredient beet pulp, which can expand up to 250% hydrated (wet in the stomach). Tomato Pomance is another expansion type fiber. Cellulose flour is another culprit. Wet in the stomach with digestive fluids (combine that with a nice drink of water after the meal), your popcorn had popped. Not sure about this? Try an experiment. Take your kibble kernels in a cup and fill the cup to the brim with water. Catch some zzzzz's and check it out in the morning. You should find your cup overfloweth with the popped up kibble.

Have you tried this with the food you are feeding? I would bet money it will swell when wetted.

Ezzy: The difference is the amount or air we get into the feed. So if you feed 1 cup of pelleted or three cups pf expanded the dog is eating the exact same amount of feed and will produce the same waste while getting the same nutrition and yet the pelleted feed has 3 times the calories per cup. And someone will try to tell you the one is better than the other because they only need to feed one cup.

Kind of reminds me of that of commercial, you can have 1 bowl of Total or 10 bowls of X. What do you think is better? IMO consuming less is best assuming you can get the same.

??? In these cases you are consuming the same. If I crush my Corn Flakes it will occupy the same space in my bowl as your granola will in yours.

Ezzy: Did you ever notice the high calories per cup feeds come in smaller bags but the same weight as the lower calorie per cup feeds. Just remember calories per cup tell you nothing since we buy the feed by the pound and not the cup.

No I haven't, my food is not sold in bags, it is a boxed feed.

Charlie

Being the astute shopper I am I would wonder why they moved away from convention - probably to avoid other shoppers easily making the volume comparison which Ezzy mentions. The magic of deception in marketing.

[claybuster_aa]

First, I would like to say that ezzy needs no help in knowing dog food, but there really is so much misunderstanding in this post.

True, he does knows about his food.

Actually many companies do. Is the information from your company digestible energy or metabolizable energy? One of the popular brands being discussed here lists 2173 DE and 2003 ME per pound. They have 543 DE/cup with 4 oz. of feed in a cup.

I checked but it only states what the Calories are, nothing in regards to ME or DE.

Companies may give you ME/DE figures...but where is it coming from? CARBS most likely dictate the ration being they are kibbled. They have to, if you add too much fat, it will fall apart, if you add too much meat, it will fall apart. Grain matter thus represents 75% of the kibble meaning your ME or DE figures are dominated by carb content. So, I know what I am doing is less than 22.6% carb, it is posted on the box. Therefore, I know the ME or DE is not dominated by carb content. You stated that actually many companies do provide the information. Do they really list carb content? I've never seen it, not on websites, not listed on the bags or the major companies. They shy away from providing that info. They also shy away from how much of the protein core is comprised of animal source in relation to gluten source proteins. We know it does not dominate because remember, carbs must dictate the ration to formulate a pellet or kibble. But that is a good thing, right? Dogs being omnivores should be eating grain matter anyway. Animals take down other animals in the wild not for meat, fat, blood and bone, but rather the delicasay of grain content found in the stomach.

Have you tried this with the food you are feeding? I would bet money it will swell when wetted.

The feed I use does not advocate the use of gluten source proteins or expansion type fibers. The reason I like the feed is they are attempting to feed dogs like carnivores. Will it swell...I doubt it, many just a tiny fraction if any.

It is a beautiful analogy. As you can see the food you are feeding is much denser than the other one I listed. Whether yours is compressed or theirs is expanded is of little consequence - in the end the kcal/lb are identical - and you pay for the food by the pound and feed calories.

It is a nice analogy, but what you fail to recognize is (and so does Ezzy, no offense), that in regards to the comparison, you got it all backwards!
A cup of lead or a cup of feathers? My feed is the feathers (despite being heavier). Why? Because, your expansion fibers, ie Beet Pulp can swell up to 250% when hydrated taking up a large amounts of volume within the dogs stomach. That is the lead people and there lies your density! It is a great analogy, but the association of that analogy is backwards. You are all well aware of the warnings in regards to bloat and kibble I assume. Do you takes your dogs hunting after consuming a big dish of nuggets or do the people with experience recommend maybe fasting for 12-24 hrs is the better option? Why do you think they recommend that? They are concerned about your popcorn popping in the dogs stomach and all the expansion taking place?
Not a concern for me. I free feed product and they eat whenever they feel like it. My dog will work all day after a 4 day fast with no problems or fatigue or she can eat right before. I always keep product in the bowls, and it will sit there sometimes for literally days without being consumed. They eat when their body calls for it.

Being the astute shopper I am I would wonder why they moved away from convention - probably to avoid other shoppers easily making the volume comparison which Ezzy mentions. The magic of deception in marketing.

I respect the fact you are a very astute shopper. And I respect everyone’s opinion they have in regards to their favorite feeds...from fingernail to turds. However, people will attempt to tell what I am doing is
is a waste of money, marketing hype, deception, etc. because it goes agaist the grain (no pun intended) and bucks industry norm. I do what I am doing because I like the approach and the philosophy and I like the results. It works well for my dogs. So, when you shop around and make those volume comparisons, I'm sure you will have a difficult time making those comparisons for you will very rarely find this feed sold in stores. However, someone down the street or the next town may have 20 boxes in his garage.

[ezzy333]

Charlie,

It is a nice analogy, but what you fail to recognize is (and so does Ezzy, no offense), that in regards to the comparison, you got it all backwards

No we don't. Doesn't matter what it does once in the animals stomach. It has already eaten the feed.

Do you takes your dogs hunting after consuming a big dish of nuggets or do the people with experience recommend maybe fasting for 12-24 hrs is the better option? Why do you think they recommend that? They are concerned about your popcorn popping in the dogs stomach and all the expansion taking place?

Doesn't make a bit of differewnce other than the dog just ate and ddue to the shape of the dog it is easy to have the stomach twist. Will happen just as quick with your feed as it will with any other.

My dog will work all day after a 4 day fast with no problems or fatigue or she can eat right before. I always keep product in the bowls, and it will sit there sometimes for literally days without being consumed. They eat when their body calls for it.

This one says a lot. Food does not prevent fatigue. Never has and never will. The ability of the circulatory system to get enough oxegen to the muscles will prevent it and nothing else. But it says a lot when you say the feed will sit for days without being eaten. That doesn't happen if you are feeding correctly unless the dog is sick or just can't stomach anymore of the feed till it feels like it is starving.

Don't have time to get into the carb thing again other than to say we pellet material without an carbs and we can pellet or extrude most any material. I will admit flour type material pellet easier and better but we can get you the high fat feeds or many other formulas when needed.

Ezzy

[claybuster_aa]

This one says a lot. Food does not prevent fatigue. Never has and never will. The ability of the circulatory system to get enough oxegen to the muscles will prevent it and nothing else. But it says a lot when you say the feed will sit for days without being eaten. That doesn't happen if you are feeding correctly unless the dog is sick or just can't stomach anymore of the feed till it feels like it is starving.Ezzy

Every system in the dog's body, circulatory, digestive, immune system, is IMO all impacted by nutrition. Poor immune system leading to allergies…nutrition. Digestive system...slowed down with large amounts of added fiber to firm stools, impacted by nutrition. Circulatory system and enough oxygen to the muscles...nutrition. Neuro- transmitter function and brain chemistry.... nutrition. It all centers on good strong solid nutrition.... IMO.

Dogs eat when their bodies call for eating. I go through the same amount of product routinely like clockwork. They may eat 2 cups in one day. The may eat 1/2 a cup one day. They may even skip a few days. They eat when they need to eat. And every 3 months, I buy one 40-pound box of food and it has been that way going on 6 years. They eat on their schedules, not mine. I've broken it down in regards to feeding tables, serving per box, what it states they should be eating per cups, and I have found the feeding tables accurate!

[slistoe]

claybuster it is obvious to me that you do not have the ability to see logical thought. You have an emotional belief that dogs must be fed with meat protein only. So you feed a food that will do that. Cost and science be hanged. There are people in this world who honestly believe that they will live longer and healthier lives if they eat nothing but vegetables.

It is pointless to continue to point out all the errors of science, logic and fact in your postings.

Have fun with your dog - or is it dogs?

[big steve46]

The way I look at it is that most of our dogs are better fed nutritionally than we feed ourselves, and that's good enough for me. For dogs, this can easily be accomplished with most any good quality food for less than 65 cents a pound. By the way, I see merit in most of the comments I have been reading here, especially mine.