Wisconsin hunt test

[birddog]

Seems it's hunt test time and I have joined in the fun.

This past Saturday and Sunday I had entered my GWP Micah in her first Junior Hunt test at the Ottawa field trial grounds in Wisconsin.
Saturday was a wash out and I will tell you why.

To start, her break-away was not too pretty. She was harassed by her brace-mate a Vizala and she just couldn't get away from him. The handler tried his best to get the dog under control and finally they went their seperate ways. Micah however, did not understand all the yelling and tooting of the other handler's whistle and why these two big dogs (horses) were in the field walking behind us. She eventualy started to look pretty good but ran birdless. If you knew this dogs scenting ability you would have seen the shock on my face. As someone put it. The name Micah and the word birdless would never be in the same sentence.

After the days testing was over, I asked if I could run the course with her and I got the ok! I knew if she found a bird or 2 the light blub would go on. She found 3 dead quail, which she retrieved to me and had a awesome point on a live quail. To bad it didn't count

Now Sunday was a different story.
My little girl put on quit a show. Micah and her GSP brace-mate's break-away was very impressive. The whistle and calling of the other handler and the Big Dogs walking behind us were no longer a concern to her. She moved forward, using the wind to her advantage, and hitting all objectives. As we were approching the bird field she was hunting inside a large patch of woods and wasen't coming around. I said to the judge, she is probably standing a bird, he agreed. I gave her a call to come around and she popped out of the woods with a live quail in her mouth, which she retrieved to hand. I cast her into the bird field and within minutes she was locked on a very impressive and stylish point. To shorten the story, Micah had 2 more finds with points to knock your socks off and passed with a score of all 9's. During the entire run, I only had to handle her 3 times with a "Micah, come" and the rest is history.

The walk out of the field on Sunday was very rewarding compared to that same walk Saturday.. Though she is very talented and I expected the same kind of performance from her on Saturday, it goes to show. You just never know!

The decission to wait around and take her back in the field on Saturday was the key that turned her around. I feel it helped her to work it out.

Janet

[snips]

Great Janet! Your dog just needed a hint of what in the heck was going on! I slipped my SH dog Chance on the grounds on a Fri evening to stand a couple of birds before his first hunt test. Payed off.

[birddog]

Well, thought I would get out the news Micah is now a JR Hunter and ask how most of you feel about testing dogs in these Hunt Test events.

I will tell you why I ask.
For all my years of hunting and raising dogs I have not put much stock in the testing and trial scores because after watching many of the tests I felt many dogs were getting hunt test titlies who did not deserve to pass. I decided to rethink my thoughts, put them aside and give it a try testing 2 of my dogs in the JR Hunt Test.
Here is the rub.
I had a brace mate that did not handle, ran off course, missed the whole back course and came from the woods right into the bird field, did not listen to their handler and qualified with close to the same score that was awarded Micah who ended up with 9's and 8's. Micah ran as though I was pushing a button, handled like a dream and found and pointed several birds with class and style. Even when walking off the field the handler of her brace mate said," well, we sure blew that one". We both went to see the scores together. After finding Micah's brace mate passed, it took a lot of meaning out of that pass for me.
My thoughts have now returned. How much stock can we put in these titles? So I now have 2 titled JR. Hunter, who performed so well the judges had no choice, but so does the other handler who's dog was out of judgement..
Most will say one should only be concerned about their own dog and there score but I have to wonder if my suspicion is not correct. A titled dog in my opinion should be worthy of that title. I feel, even though the JR Hunt test does not have the same stigma of a Senior or Master title, it is still a title and should not be handed out so freely.

Janet

[snips]

I think Janet, that your feelings are felt by quite a few people. I know I have passed a couple that if I was judging, I would not have, on the same terms I have come away thinking I should have passed when I did`nt. Part of it is just coming away knowing your dog did a nice job and deserved his title. It is somewhat harder to judge a JH test, in that you can pass without any real training, so there are many dogs that pass doing very little or some dogs are over the edge. It gets a little more black and white in the upper levels. I have ALWAYS been proud of finishing in the upper levels.

[birddog]

Nice of you to understand my feelings Brenda. I am sure in the upper level it is more black and white and not as easy to slip through. However, many and most people are impressed with titles, any kind of a title, regardless of its status symbol and they judge dogs by the titles they hold.. I just feel regardless the level, the title should be earned.

Janet

[sdgord]

Janet, I have struggled with the JH title for some time wondering if it was worth the entry fees. If you work your pup right and expect a level of performance that makes you feel good about your pup then it is a good venue.Where it has become a fluff title is when some folks figure that the JH is all it takes to be a bird dog. I like to try to get a pups title before or shortly after one year old. Partly to get them used to the noise and crowds and horses. The jump from JH to SH is statistically the most difficult of the performance dog venues. I have been to hunt tests in Northern Minnesota when less than half of the JH dogs qualified. The judges had a very good grasp of what it took to be considered a hunting dog. Some clubs do not want the judges to be very tough at all on the junior dogs as they feel it inhibits the revenue and attracting new people to the dog test game. Part of it Janet is to find out who is judging and do a little research to find out if you want to pay thirty to forty bucks for their opinion.SDGORD

[snips]

Janet, are you going for Sr`s? I think you would find it a bit more challanging and rewarding to get a SH or MH.

[birddog]

Hello Snips, Yes, I plan on testing in Senior and Master this fall but only if I feel he is ready. I am not in a rush. I doubt that the judging will be any different though. I have watched many, many Senior and Master tests and saw dogs pass that I thought should have been excused. One in particular was on the retrieve. The dog layed down by the bird for at least 5 minutes. After coxing, she did pick up the bird and bring it in after dropping it several times. I also know a dog who had been tested 15 or so times and finally got the Master title. To me that title was bought. How anyone can take pride in that kind of a title is beyond me. People go to these title dogs for breeding not knowing how those titles were achieved. That is the reason I have not put much stock in the test scores or titles. For all these years I have not had a title on my dogs. They were sold on their hunting skills, not test scores. Right now I have 13 puppies on the ground, 5 days old, and they are all sold except for 2. I feel if you have a clean breeding program and have a focus, ours being breeding hunting dogs for the hunter, people will come.

Janet

[grant]

Hey,

I look at the JH test as a fun thing. There was not much to it. If your dog can reasonably respond to a here command and point a bird long enough for you to get within gun range, you're in. SH and MH are different. Everything must go right for you to pass. The tests I attended had good judges. They had no problem sending dogs home. In fact, only 2 dogs passed SH the second day we were there. I like the AKC hunt tests because you compete against a standard. If its judged right, only the dogs that meet the respective standard should be passed.

The down side is that some judges will pass dogs that shouldn't be. Thats just life. There are a lot of good dogs with titles out there, but not all good dogs have titles. Just like in the job field, too many employers want a college education, certifications, etc. and overlook the real world experience. In the same way a CH title attracts buyers. I can see why a breeder would be frustrated with titles if they didn't have any. I'm sure they get asked about titles on their dogs often.

So, the way I look at it is, if your dogs are good, a title on their name puts the icing on the freakin' cake. =) Who cares if some other dogs have titles that don't deserve it. If that frustrates you (like it does most people with good dogs), let that fuel your fire and go beat the pants off them =)

Grant

[snips]

I agree with both of you guys. This is a fact no mattter what venue you run in, unfortunatly. Thats why it`s always good to know the dog thats being used for breeding. If you run long enugh (or show long enough) you can luck up into a title. I find that a dog that finishes quickly or easily is the nicer dog. Running in hunt tests you will always come across things that flunk you that "just happen." Sometimes it takes a little luck too. But a truely nice dog thats got the training will always prevail...

[grant]

[birddog]

Grant, You look at the JR. Hunt test as a fun test. I look at it as a test for a title. Another consideration is not all hunting dogs become hunters and not all JR. Hunt dogs tested should qualify as is becoming the case. When I am in competition I want my dog at its best regardless the level of the test. When I walk off the field I want my dog to be remembered as one He## of a hunting dog, not a dog that was out there just having fun. I and my dog save the fun for the actual hunt.

As for breeders being fustrated because they don't have titles is ludicrous. Check out how many dogs are tested each year versus the number of hunting dogs registered each year and it is clear that tons of fantastic hunting dogs NOT tested, far out number the many tested dogs that in many cases didn't deserve that title. If what you say is true, then some of us would be in a sad fix trying to sell our puppies. As a recognized breeder of hunting dogs generally sold out a year in advance of any breeding solely because of the reputation of our dogs as hunting stock, I for one can dispute that statement. Up to this year we've not had one titled dog in our kennel.

Each and every one of us has to have priorities. My passion has always been hunting, but I have decided to start to test not because I need titles to sell puppies, but merely because I can and could have through the years. I also want to make the point that a good sustained breeding program should allow you to do most anything with a well bred dog. Additionally, my age is catching up on me and I have decided I need something to entertain and keep me going.

The point I was trying to make I guess is maybe someone should be made responsible to see that the judges are held accountable for some of their decisions.

Janet

[grant]

Good luck with your JH tests.

BTW, reread my post as you've misinterpreted most of it.

Grant

[NDBDHunter]

I agree with Grant. I run my Gordons in AKC hunt tests, NSTRA events and I just did my first NAVHDA event last weekend. I do it for the fun of it. I enjoy getting out there with like minded people. Everyone has there own reasons whether it's recreation or monetary or somewhere in between, that's for each of us to decide. You can never take the human factor out of judging. We as humans are always going to be imperfect. I believe the majority of dogs/puppies are sold by word of mouth. I'm currently looking for a stud dog and one of the aspects I'm looking for is a dog the finished easily. We don't get that info from titles but by word of mouth. Dogs get that exposure by being seen. Unless you go hunting with lots of people where will you see several dogs from all over the country at one place and time. I think that's what these events offer....exposure. having a good reputation and showing well far exceeds any titles. But... they are fun to have as "Icing on the cake", in my opinion.

[ezzy333]

IMO the JR hunt test is nothing more than a test of a pups natural ability. There should be no training involved. If the pup will stay in the same county as you as it searches, can find a bird and point it, then it should pass. All that title says is the pup has some hunting ability or interest.

Sr and Master is where the dog and your training come in to play. You have taken a pup with enough natural ability to warrant further training and can demonstrate your's and the dog's abilities. That is not a bad program. When I see a title on the dog all it says is that someone has worked with their dog long enough to get that title and it doesn't say a thing about how good the dog is. For a matter of fact the thing that bothers me most is that so many people try to see how young they can get the titles on their dogs and all they are doing is takeing a dog with perhaps some outstanding abilities and making the dog a mechanical robot. All for the sake of the owners ego and no regard for what is best for their dog.

Ezzy

[birddog]

IMO the JR hunt test is nothing more than a test of a pups natural ability. There should be no training involved. If the pup will stay in the same county as you as it searches, can find a bird and point it, then it should pass. All that title says is the pup has some hunting ability or interest.

When I see a title on the dog all it says is that someone has worked with their dog long enough to get that title and it doesn't say a thing about how good the dog is. ezzy

The Jr hunt test is for dogs of all ages not just pups. The dog is judged on : Hunting ability, Pointing, Bird finding and Trainability. I agree with you when you say that the title does not say a thing about how good the dog is. That being said, then why is so much stock put on these titles? I also agree that some, such as myself, start to test for expoisure of the dog. It is nice when your dog does you proud in frount of an audieunce, however that same audience can witness the untrained dog mess up as well. And of course the unexpected will also happen as Snips said, even with a well prepared dog.

Janet