Blank Pistol Help

TNovoa · Post by **TNovoa** » Tue Mar 04, 2008 2:17 pm

I wasn't sure where to post this but, anyway, can someone give me a recommendation on a decent blank pistol - mid-price range - that can be used at AKC hunt tests? I know there aren't a whole lot to choose from but maybe someone can point me somewhere I haven't already been or give me some good advice on what to avoid.

I currently have a "Champion" Athletic Starter Revolver .22 caliber made by Precision that's been crap from the start (which was 8 years ago). I have a bunch of puppies I'd like to start in Juniors, and a Senior, this spring and don't want to be fighting with a blank if I don't have to.

TIA!
Tracy

The Zephyr · Post by **The Zephyr** » Tue Mar 04, 2008 2:19 pm

N.E.F. (New England Firearms)

It's lasted 12 years without fail.

A recent post on this topic:

http://www.gundogforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10908

John L.

Brittguy · Post by **Brittguy** » Tue Mar 04, 2008 5:15 pm

NEF you will never wear it out.

Casper · Post by **Casper** » Tue Mar 04, 2008 5:33 pm

And you can stuff just about any kind of blank ammo into them. Many folks go to Home Depot and buy the yellow nail set cartridges. They are loud and cheap.

The guns new are about $150

FWIW

phermes1 · Post by **phermes1** » Tue Mar 04, 2008 7:27 pm

Anyone try them with shotgun primers?

I just won a 22 NEF pistol in a raffle and was wondering if it would fire primers. If I could find out without alarming the neighbors - that'd be good.

Brittguy · Post by **Brittguy** » Tue Mar 04, 2008 8:43 pm

I am guessing that it would not fire primers. I don't believe primers would fit and if they did you might have a problem with rim fire vs center fire.

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Wed Mar 05, 2008 6:23 am

My H & R, which is the same thing as the current NEF, is close to 30 and still working.

phermes1 · Post by **phermes1** » Wed Mar 05, 2008 7:39 am

Brittguy wrote:I am guessing that it would not fire primers. I don't believe primers would fit and if they did you might have a problem with rim fire vs center fire.

Makes sense. Duh. Worth a shot, right?

The Zephyr · Post by **The Zephyr** » Wed Mar 05, 2008 7:53 am

Try this N.E.F. hyperlink to Lion Country Supply:

http://www.lcsupply.com/Product/Blank-P ... istol.html

After all they are a sponsor.

John L.

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Wed Mar 05, 2008 1:52 pm

The best overall value in blank guns out there I think is the Kimar primer pistol. They sell for around $54.00 I think at www.gundogsupply.com .

The cylinder locks, ther's no pins to lose, they just work, and work, and work.

I ported mine so that it would blow out clean. Took fifteen seconds with a 1/8"drill bit. I've had one fail in five years, and that's after many tens of thousands of primers.

The Alpha are really nice, but very expensive and about ever 2-4000 rounds the cylinder gets too much free play in it and it stops firing reliably so you have to send it back in to get a shim put in. Considering they are 100.00 more than the kymar I don't think it's a bargain. CR

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 6:57 am

My H & R, which is the same thing as the current NEF, is close to 30 and still working.

John,

Mine is 26 years old and I run hundreds of rounds through it a week of Lowes nail-gun ammo. Nothing else as good. Period.

phermes1 · Post by **phermes1** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 7:26 am

That Kimar pistol looks nice, but it only holds 5 rounds. Not a bad price, though.

Well - I have to admit that I'm now a member of the snooty NEF pistol crowd.

I won a used one at a raffle this past weekend. Yes, the things are built like tanks - I had just never planned on dropping $160 on one because I already had 2 perfectly fine primer pistols.

Anyway - Yawallac, what's a good nailgun load to shoot through them?

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 8:21 am

Lowes sells the Remington brand here. I use the green loads "3" because they extract the easiest and are still pretty loud. The yellows "4" are also good but they are a little harder to extract at times. Not a big deal on the yellows, I just like them to extract quickly.

If I want real loud I use the Red loads "5" that I buy for my Retriever Trainer. They aren't crimped at the end and they are about as loud as a .32.

TNovoa · Post by **TNovoa** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 8:48 am

Thanks for the replies, I'm going with the NEF. Sorry for the repeat post, I didn't take time to look around - I'm in a hurry to order some other things from LC Supply.

I was confused with the primer pistols - are they allowed in the AKC hunt tests?? I thought only .22 and .32 calibers were acceptable.

Thanks!!
Tracy

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 9:28 am

Primer pistols are allowed. They are also MUCH cheaper and easier to get loads for.

If I were going to spend that much on a pistol I'd skip the NEF and get the Alpha.

When you lose a few pins and cylinders from the NEF it really starts to add up. CR

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Fri Mar 07, 2008 6:50 am

Primer pistols are allowed. They are also MUCH cheaper and easier to get loads for.

If you have a Lowes or Home Depot or most any hardware store for that matter, than you can get ammo. Pretty easy. They run about $5.00 per box of 100. Pretty cheap.

If I were going to spend that much on a pistol I'd skip the NEF and get the Alpha.

Charlie, you mentioned that the Alpha will need repair if used frequently. There is no more rugged blank pistol made than the NEF. Also it is much less expensive. You lost me on that one?? ...except that the Alpha is prettier.

When you lose a few pins and cylinders from the NEF it really starts to add up. CR

That is the knock on the NEF. You can drop the pin and lose it. Many companies include a pin protector that prevents that. I have never used a pin protector and in 26 years of heavy use I have never lost a pin. Also, you'd have to be quite the klutz to lose a cyllinder.

This company has a very good price on the NEF .22. They do not carry the .32.

http://weaponsofchoicetheatrical.com/guns.htm

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Fri Mar 07, 2008 11:54 am

That is the knock on the NEF. You can drop the pin and lose it. Many companies include a pin protector that prevents that. I have never used a pin protector and in 26 years of heavy use I have never lost a pin. Also, you'd have to be quite the klutz to lose a cyllinder.

Well I guess I know a lot of really klutzy people because I know quite a few people who have lost multiple pins and multiple cylinders because when the pin falls out, the cylinder is free and can fall out!

I talked to the TBI/Alpha guys a while back. They still have one of their original prototype models that has never failed with over 50,000 rounds through it. That's a pretty reliable gun!

I don't think the Alpha is perfect but I do think it's the best overall design I've ever seen in a blank gun. With the constantly nasty, dirty, dusty, sandy conditons mine get used in anything is going to fail occasionally. I've just had better luck with the Alpha than all of the others and I've tried them all.

The Kimar though I do feel is certainly the best value in blank guns. Sure they will wear out every ten thousand rounds or so, but at 47.00 or so per gun that's still a very good return on the investment. CR

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Fri Mar 07, 2008 1:46 pm

CR,

I have a 209 Kimar...POS. I may donate it to a raffle.

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Fri Mar 07, 2008 1:53 pm

Wynd what do you not like about it? I think they have one design flaw which I solved pretty easily. That's the fact the tolerances are so tight that they get dirty in a big hurry.

I just took a 1/8" drill bit and drilled a port hole back from the top of the bbl to the point where the firing cylinder meets the frame. Ten minutes worth of thinking, thirty seconds worth of work, many thousands of rounds through it with no failures.

No more problems. CR

phillipsgsp · Post by **phillipsgsp** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 10:28 pm

Wildrose, you are right. I am at alot of test and trials and it seems like every weekend somone is bitching about loosing a pin and or cylinder from a NEF pistol. I am like you and like thoughs 209 primer guns.
Chad

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 7:28 pm

Well I guess I know a lot of really klutzy people because I know quite a few people who have lost multiple pins and multiple cylinders because when the pin falls out, the cylinder is free and can fall out!

I guess you must!! How the heck do they lose a cylinder? How the heck does the pin "fall out"?

UNLESS: I have the H&R. Maybe the design changed? The only way that I can lose a pin with my H&R is if I drop it while reloading and can't find it. In 26 years I have not done that. The pin simply can not "fall out" therefore the cylinder can not either..

The Alpha are really nice, but very expensive and about ever 2-4000 rounds the cylinder gets too much free play in it and it stops firing reliably

You were the one that said the Alpha's fail... Dude.

I'm thinking you must own stock in Kimar...

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 10:34 pm

Yaw, I've simply answered the questions honestly. I don't own stock in any of them.

Believe it or not some people can't justify spending over 100.00 on a blank gun. For them I think the Kimar is a great answer.

I've owned 3 of the NEF's over the years. They are a PIA to reload. They don't work reliably in poor conditons and take a lot of maintenance to keep from rusting.

I've seen a couple of dozen people at trials and hunt tests suddenly find themselves in a real bind on the course when their gun won't work because the pin fell out, or they lost a cylinder, or dropped the cylinder in the dirt while trying to reload and then had a dirty gun jam on them and fail when they got it reloaded.

I don't think the ALPHA is perfect either, that's what I stated. I do like it's overall design much better than the NEF. If it fails after a few thousand rounds, that's really not a big deal to most people, they send it in in the off season and get it repaired for little or nothing. One thing I have found about Alpha is that their customer service is fantastic and they actually DO honor their warranty.

I've also been in correspondance and discussion with Alpha's owner and design people to address the design flaw and suggested a couple of ways they can solve it permanently when the guns are sent in for repar. CR

Neil Mace · Post by **Neil Mace** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 4:16 am

Does anyone know for sure if AKC has a formal position on primer guns? It sure does not meet the "22 cal, no crimps" rule.

Nor does it meet the AF/FDSB/AFTCA rule of "32 cal or larger" for ch.

I just don't think the judges are checking or much care as long as something goes bang when the birds flush.

I have never lost a NEF pin or cylinder, never had one to malfunction if cleaned once a month or so, but they are a pain to reload.

I do not like the large size of the Alpha (there is a reason a lot of guys carry them on their saddles) and I have never tried the Kimar.

Chad Holman uses one of the old, small .22 H&Rs that his graddad most have bought, it always seems to work, and knowing Chad, I doubt he rubs on it much.

Neil

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 6:23 am

In 26 years I have never even cleaned it. I just keep pulling the trigger and it keeps firing. I went through a couple of the "better" less expensive blank guns and they just broke. I decided to spend the extra few bucks (I think they were $65 back then) and have been happy ever since. I put a lot of rounds through this gun every week.

I even gave it a custom paint job a few years ago with a can of orange spray paint!!

phermes1 · Post by **phermes1** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 6:42 am

Neil Mace wrote:Does anyone know for sure if AKC has a formal position on primer guns?

I don't think they've ever gotten around to addressing them. I've asked a few AKC reps and they've told me that primers are perfectly OK for field trials, but that's probably not the formal position you're talking about.

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 7:52 am

WildRose wrote:Wynd what do you not like about it? I think they have one design flaw which I solved pretty easily. That's the fact the tolerances are so tight that they get dirty in a big hurry.

I just took a 1/8" drill bit and drilled a port hole back from the top of the bbl to the point where the firing cylinder meets the frame. Ten minutes worth of thinking, thirty seconds worth of work, many thousands of rounds through it with no failures.

No more problems. CR

The firing pin will strike the primer, not deep enough to fire. It's hardly made "too close."

I lost pin and cylinder from a NEF once. I made a couple new cylinders out of T-303 SSTL, and some new pins. If you remember back, the NEF pins used to have only one groove to lock in place...if you missed it the pin would work back and out everything goes.

I made my pins with two grooves, one to lock the cylinder in position to fire, the other would allow the pin to work back some, but not far enough to let the cylinder fall out. It wouldn't fire or index...but you wouldn't loose anything. Let me tell ya, there's a bunch of work in making a cylinder.

I think they come that way now...not sure though.

I also tried to make a 209 cylinder, from the old Days End 209 pistol, fit a NEF .32 fame. That works for a bit, but the primer cup separates from the hull causing a jam. Maybe different a different manufacturer would solve the problem. But Winchesters didn't work.

phillipsgsp · Post by **phillipsgsp** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 6:27 pm

It would be nice to find out about the AKC's position on the 209's. There is alot of people using them, including me.
Chad

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 6:38 pm

Let me tell ya, there's a bunch of work in making a cylinder.

Dude, you have WAY too much time on your hands!!

http://www.lcsupply.com/Product/Blank-P ... r-NEF.html

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 8:24 pm

Yawallac wrote:
Let me tell ya, there's a bunch of work in making a cylinder.
Dude, you have WAY too much time on your hands!!

http://www.lcsupply.com/Product/Blank-P ... r-NEF.html

What can I say...I'm odd like that

Really started as a thought to produce a 209 cylinder that would interchange with a .32 cylinder. That way you boys running them thar Am. FLD Ch's would need only one blank shooter....one that goes BANG for a CH......and another cheap bang for training.

Didn't work as well as I had hoped.....or I'm not smart enough

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 9:14 pm

That was conquered long ago. Save the .32 cases, knock out the primer, reprime and just shoot the primer for training. Use Magnum Small Pistol. they are plenty loud and you only need one cylinder. If you really have to up the noise you can buy .32 wads from Ballistic Products and put a little Pyrodex in there.

Dave Quindt · Post by **Dave Quindt** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 9:14 pm

phillipsgsp wrote:It would be nice to find out about the AKC's position on the 209's. There is alot of people using them, including me.
Chad

What exactly do you want to know? The rule is clear; you must fire a blank and you can't use a .22 crimp. A 209 primer IS a blank (when fired from a blank gun) and IS NOT a .22 crimp.

Nothing in the rule says that the blank can't be less that .22. Regardless, the diameter of a 209 primer is .243.

Having ridden in National Championships with now 3 different AKC VPs/Directors of Field Events present in the gallery along with a gaggle of AKC Field Reps if 209 primers were a problem it would have come up years ago.

From the AKC rule book:

1-G Firing Blank. In any stake, except in puppy or derby stakes as specified in Procedures 1-A and 1-B, a blank cartridge must be fired by the handler over any dog on point after the game has been flushed. .22 caliber crimps shall not be used, and if shotguns with blank shells are to be permitted, the premium list must so specify. (Note: Shotguns with blank shells may be used in any retrieving stakes but only if the premium list specifies that blank shotguns may be used.) The handler must shoot within the time that would be required to kill a bird at natural shotgun range. Any deliberate delay in shooting must be severely
penalized.

FWIW,
Dave

Neil Mace · Post by **Neil Mace** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 11:09 pm

Dave,

I am willing to go with what you say, but I do not think a 209 primer is technically a "blank catridge". I would think it would have to say "blank cartridge" on the box, not "primer".

With that logic you could use a child's cap as it is about .50 cal.

But since a primer is plenty loud enough, I suspect you are right.

Neil

phermes1 · Post by **phermes1** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 4:43 am

Neil Mace wrote:Dave,

But since a primer is plenty loud enough, I suspect you are right.

Neil

I think that's the main thing right there. The AKC just doesn't want you to use 22 crimps - it doesn't have a list of 'approved' blanks that can be used.
Either way - primers are loud enough.

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