No Lead for predation hunting-your next

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Re: No Lead for predation hunting-your next

Post by Mountaineer » Sun Mar 06, 2011 7:42 am

ezzy333 wrote:
nikegundog wrote:I read the article from the OP and did not see it mentioned that it only applied to federal employees in the aspect of their job.
It doesn't. We have had it here for several years on any public hunting areas. Some states just have it for waterfowl hunting in wetlands I believe.

Ezzy

I believe it does....as I indicated in the first post.
That article, or others on the same subject, has made all the hunting message boards lately.
There may be some reason for confusion re the wording but this decision applied to agency operations.
Every decision thos sets a precedent and gives an argument force....in that regard I hated to see the agency decision.

Steel mandated for hunting use on federal wetlands has been around for awhile and was a seperate decision....a different duck, in other words.

Having shot steel in the uplands...a little...it shows zero to scant difference in effect with the smaller, more fragile birds like woodcock and ruffed grouse.
With pheasant, there is a notable difference....tho a head shot is a head shot.
As with any cartridge decision, we owe it to the game to use that which is most likely to work in the less than perfect opportunities that a practical, real world delivers at our door.
The difference is in the toughness of the bird impacted by a less than perfect dose of salts.
Which is why I wish we had better steel loads and more cost-friendly non-tox loads. :idea:
Some will need them if not in their twilight years now.
Probably, hard to say, but probably non-tox is a good idea in the Big Picture.

Didn't Heston attend Northwestern and Selleck, USC?
How did they overcome? :wink:

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Re: No Lead for predation hunting-your next

Post by Ryman Gun Dog » Sun Mar 06, 2011 3:30 pm

Gentlemen,
What I really see in this liberal mess is back door gun control thru the limiting of the kind of shells the federal government will start to allow the public to use.
The limiting of lead shells would be a massive way to set up gun control. They have been trying to due this for years, and this in reality is why all the liberals want
lead eliminated from all hunting and shooting sports. Prove to me that lead has a real detrimental effect on the USA's wild life, before trying to make laws limiting
its usage.

RGD/Dave

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Re: No Lead for predation hunting-your next

Post by birddogger » Sun Mar 06, 2011 8:44 pm

I have to agree, I would like to have proof before more laws are passed. It is just that I want to know if it is necessary or just another liberal agenda. I may have become a little paranoid, but I believe it is better to be a little skeptical than to just accept something as fact without evidence to back it up. If the evidence is there, then I don't have a problem.

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Re: No Lead for predation hunting-your next

Post by helpful_cub » Sun Mar 06, 2011 10:00 pm

I contacted the NRA about this issue since it is exactly what they are suppose to try and prevent. Apparently they know about it and are currently working to get this ruling over turned.

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Re: No Lead for predation hunting-your next

Post by 3Britts » Mon Mar 07, 2011 6:33 am

The problem with what you are asking is that your language states that you don't want to know. "Proven it in court", "Gun Control" and "Liberal" are key words to a closed mind. But, just in case you want to read a study, I will all a link done in Minnesota.

http://www.peregrinefund.org/lead_confe ... Tranel.pdf

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Re: No Lead for predation hunting-your next

Post by Mountaineer » Mon Mar 07, 2011 7:15 am

helpful_cub wrote:I contacted the NRA about this issue.... Apparently they know about it and are currently working to get this ruling over turned.
:lol:

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Re: No Lead for predation hunting-your next

Post by Ryman Gun Dog » Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:06 am

Gentlemen,
I have no gripe with any man who chooses to shoot steel all the time, go for it you like. But without absolute proof, not just a theory and scare tactics,
now laws should be inacted to make it manditroy thru out the country. Heck I shoot steel at every Wood Duck I shoot, I do like the Fiocchi shells very much.
However if you give these liberal politicians the right to eliminate lead from hunting and shooting because of an unproven theory you have in fact enacted back door gun control and the NRA knows it. Without bulk ammo your guns are made usless, the gun control people have tried this tactic before, nothing new about it.
3 Britts you are absolutely correct my mind is fully closed to any kind of Gun Control, by liberals socialist, progressives or any other communist entity.

Mountaineer you can laugh, but in reality this is no laughing matter.
RGD/Dave

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Re: No Lead for predation hunting-your next

Post by Mountaineer » Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:55 am

Gentle Sir, RGD/Dave/ etc./ etc., the laughter on my part was due, or is it do, to the NRA response...typical of the massive, liberal-ish, response from any politico, DNR, NF employee, Commie or, anyone else who is out to "not" answer but rather to string folks along.
Many will disagree but untill I see a different meaning to that response than I have intrepreted, and one proven in a court of law apart from some liberal art college's indoctrinated view, I will continue to give out a serious, big-time laugh...tho it is a sad laugh.
Good bless the fine folks in Pennsylvania.....other than those who sued the PGC, lost and, forced the citizen's to foot the bill for much of their frivilous lawsuit antics.

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Re: No Lead for predation hunting-your next

Post by Ryman Gun Dog » Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:51 am

Mountaineer,
I did take your laughter in the wrong manner, and I agree with you about the Pa sportsman who lost the court case, they should be made to pay for their own
foolish law suit. Man I would like to have been there when the documented road kill insurance claims were presented in court. There are more deer killed on Rt #6
between Coudersport and Mansfield each year than any other road in the USA. This kind of factual evidence kind of killed the law suits premise that the PGC management was responsible for a low deer population. The Deer are still there but move around and the Deer hunters do not like it. As a Grouse hunter I wish the Deer population
here in Pa would drop seriously, our Deer population eats everything down to the forest floor. The study areas above Cherry Springs prove the point, outside the electric fence the forest is bare to the forest floor, the Deer we supposidly do not have have eaten it all, inside the Large Electric fence the forest looks like the jungle in Viet Nam.
But we don't have any Deer in Potter/Tioga, give me a break please.

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Re: No Lead for predation hunting-your next

Post by nikegundog » Mon Mar 07, 2011 11:22 am

As long as there is groups like the American Bird Conservancy that oppose everything that involves hunting, and do so by filing law suits and funding politicians, I will support the NRA. These anti-hunting groups know that in some states they don't have the numbers to support their anti-hunting agendas, so they petition state and federal agencies to push their policy's for them. These radical groups don't use their money to fund positive projects, they use it in lawsuits and lobbying.

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Re: No Lead for predation hunting-your next

Post by birddogger » Mon Mar 07, 2011 11:46 am

3Britts wrote:The problem with what you are asking is that your language states that you don't want to know. "Proven it in court", "Gun Control" and "Liberal" are key words to a closed mind. But, just in case you want to read a study, I will all a link done in Minnesota.

http://www.peregrinefund.org/lead_confe ... Tranel.pdf
I guess you can put me in the corner of having a closed mind then, because I don't trust anything liberals say. This comes from observing over the years that they will lie, deceive and anything else they have to do to push an agenda through, and how dare we question them or ask for proof. After all, they told us so and that should be good enough. They are always promoting the freedom of speech, unless of course you disagree with them. In that case, they will try anything in their power to shut you up. I am off topic here because I am not necessarily talking about the lead shot debate, but rather talking in general. I just had to respond to the "closed mind" comment.

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Re: No Lead for predation hunting-your next

Post by 3Britts » Mon Mar 07, 2011 1:59 pm

I can see where you are coming from. I get the "FACT" that Conservatives don't lie. The funny thing about a statement that Liberals do nothing but lie is that the Founding Fathers were considered liberal for their time. I guess that you would have been part of the group seeking to keep King George in power at the expense of our freedoms. The American Bird Conservancy and the NRA both represent the issues to fit their arguments. That means that they lie. Oh, and just so we are clear, I am a lifetime member of the NRA, a Vet who has seen combat, believe in holding to the traditional values that made this country great, and a person who is unafraid of change. I believe that we have responsibilty to leave this world a better place than I found it and not just abuse what i have been given by God. Let's see, I am also a life long Scouter. I am neither Republican or Democrate, I study the issues from both sides before making up my mind on who to vote for or what to think.
Can you say the same?

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Re: No Lead for predation hunting-your next

Post by birddogger » Mon Mar 07, 2011 2:18 pm

Sure can! As far as the founding fathers go, they would roll over in their grave if they could see what the libs are doing to our country. As you know, we conservatives want to destroy the environment and everything in it. I see where you are coming from too.

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Re: No Lead for predation hunting-your next

Post by wems2371 » Mon Mar 07, 2011 3:38 pm

Gun control fear propaganda is the same type of junk that clogged my email account daily, before the last presidential election. It was great for me, in selling some reloading equipment, when I got 2x what it was worth. I couldn't have come up with a better marketing strategy if I tried--The sky is falling, the sky is falling! Of course, I couldn't get those prices now, because that propaganda BS has mostly dried up.

Some lead studies have been done and the links posted, earlier in this thread. Is wildlife going to go to heck, if we keep using lead? I'm guessing not any time soon. But when the alternative is reasonable and we know 100% for fact that lead is toxic, why not consider it? If your reasoning is based on the shooting properties of lead vs steel, I can give credence to that. I can even understand, being concerned about price difference. If your reasoning is based on fear, that if you give an inch-they'll take a mile, then I'm gonna have to hold my tongue...because I despise that way of thinking.

If you believe that the left is the only side pushing agendas through, I got a bridge for you, but you're gonna have to take your blinders off to see it. :D

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Re: No Lead for predation hunting-your next

Post by Mountaineer » Mon Mar 07, 2011 4:09 pm

wems2371 wrote:Gun control fear propaganda is the same type of junk that clogged my email account daily, before the last presidential election. It was great for me, in selling some reloading equipment, when I got 2x what it was worth. I couldn't have come up with a better marketing strategy if I tried--The sky is falling, the sky is falling! Of course, I couldn't get those prices now, because that propaganda BS has mostly dried up.

Some lead studies have been done and the links posted, earlier in this thread. Is wildlife going to go to heck, if we keep using lead? I'm guessing not any time soon. But when the alternative is reasonable and we know 100% for fact that lead is toxic, why not consider it? If your reasoning is based on the shooting properties of lead vs steel, I can give credence to that. I can even understand, being concerned about price difference. If your reasoning is based on fear, that if you give an inch-they'll take a mile, then I'm gonna have to hold my tongue...because I despise that way of thinking.

If you believe that the left is the only side pushing agendas through, I got a bridge for you, but you're gonna have to take your blinders off to see it. :D

Well said.

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Re: No Lead for predation hunting-your next

Post by birddogger » Mon Mar 07, 2011 5:32 pm

As I said in an earlier post, my comments about the left was not about the lead debate. If you are talking about political parties, both sides have put this country in bad shape with out of control spending and such. However, the left has to hide their true agenda or they would never get anything accomplished because they would never get the support needed. I know lies and deceit are very strong words but I stand by them. It is the reason Dan Rather no longer works for CBS. Oh BTW, the fact that I don't have blinders on is what has formed my strong opinion about the left. :wink:

I do apologize for steering this thread off topic but the "closed mind" comment got me started, but I mean nothing personal with my comments. Now back to the original topic, I have not taken sides on this, and am open minded about it. If lead shot is endangering our wildlife then I have no problem with doing something about it.

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Re: No Lead for predation hunting-your next

Post by Ryman Gun Dog » Sun Mar 20, 2011 9:42 am

Wems & 3Britts,

It is evident that you two think the conservative NRA uses scare tacticts to spread their gun control message in support of the 2nd Amendment, you have both brought this up in different ways. Having worked on the NRA Speakers Bureau for many years I can tell you that no lies are being used to defend the 2nd Amendment.
If you think telling the truth about the many different ways the 2nd Amendment is being attacked, you have missed the big picture as to what these people are really trying to accomplish, do you really believe they are trying to save the wild life by banning lead. This same tactic was used in the early 70's to help undermine your 2nd amendment rights, these people in power today are now trying again. This time however the general public is a lot more educated as to what is really going on, thanks to the NRA (Scare Tactics), new legislation is being inacted to eliminate federal tax money from many of these liberal back door projects, that undermine the 2nd Amendment. The latest being Senate Bill 570 that Eliminates any money used by the justice department to track and catalogue shotgun and rifle purchases.
I do hope in the very near future the NRA can also help eliminate this unproven theory of massive lead contamination upon American wild life. Sure there is some small amount of lead contamination and in those areas something should be done, but to inact massive general sweeping laws that will effect every gun owner in the USA,
because these laws would basically eliminate most ammo, is more than just foolish talk, it's back door gun control at its best. As I indicated before, these same kind of people tried this before with Jimmy Carter as President. Now we have an even bigger gun control President sitting in the oval office, so they are trying it again.
RGD/Dave

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Re: No Lead for predation hunting-your next

Post by birddogger » Sun Mar 20, 2011 7:20 pm

Anyone who thinks "gun control" is a key word for a closed mind, propaganda or scare tactics needs a wake up call. If you give them an inch, they won't take a mile because they know they can't, but they will take another inch and another and another until they reach their ultimate goal. I am proud to be a life member of the NRA and I have never seen them use scare tactics or propaganda. Their only agenda is to protect the second amendment and they support any politician, whether it be democrat or republican who does the same. I think being a little skeptical about banning lead shot or any other issue which takes away another freedom is a healthy thing. Not being closed minded but skeptical.

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Re: No Lead for predation hunting-your next

Post by 3Britts » Wed Mar 23, 2011 4:58 am

Dave and Charlie,

following any organization blindly, as the two of you seem to be doing is simply dangerous. If you had done any research of your own, not just listening to and buying the NRA partyline, you would find that many studies have been done that show the danger of lead in our wildlife and our outdoors.Ignoring all other aspects of our world in favor of "Protecting the second admendment" is irresponsible and in no way what the Founding Fathers expected of us. Maybe, you should take a little time out of your day and read the Federalist Papers, these would be the documents that the Founding Fathers used to format the Constitution and explain its meaning and purpose along with the admendments, you would have a better idea of the reasoning behind the Second admendment. You might even become something more than just blind obedient sheep who follow the NRA's partyline. But either way, good luck in your endevors and feel free to look me up if you are ever in Utah during hunting season and we'll go shoot some chuckars, grouse, quail, but no pheasant as we only have about six left in the state.

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Re: No Lead for predation hunting-your next

Post by nikegundog » Wed Mar 23, 2011 11:50 am

3Britts, I know what the Federalist Papers said, however I don't think it validates your point at all. The NRA is fighting for hunting rights as well as gun rights, I don't see how that is a bad thing even if hunting rights was not the intent of our founding fathers. I think you may be the one following organizations blindly. The ABC has an anti-hunting stance and will use any study they can find to push their agenda.

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Re: No Lead for predation hunting-your next

Post by 3Britts » Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:34 am

yea, I can almost see where I am anti-hunting. Seeing how I spend more than 4.5 month getting out and hunting my dogs every years, guiding several other months. It must be that I follow an anti-hunting stance taken by some club. I just believe that we have a responsibility to the future. If those that feel the pressure of being unable to hit a bird on the wing when using something other than lead, have a problem with that too bad.
Thanks for that post NGD, I needed a good laugh today. Any other missinformation you would like to give?

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Re: No Lead for predation hunting-your next

Post by nikegundog » Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:23 pm

3britts, NEVER said you were anti-hunting, read then reread my post again. I gave no misinformation. Yes the NRA takes a pro-hunting stance, I don't believe anyone will disagree. Yes the ABC takes an anti-hunting stance, I don't believe anyone will disagree. So please enlighten me on my misinformation.

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Re: No Lead for predation hunting-your next

Post by 3Britts » Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:43 pm

First, the NRA takes a no gun legislation stance, not a simple prohunting stance.
Second, you stated that I follow the ABC blindy. Adding "I think" is just a way of trying to be sneaky about saying it.
Misinformation.

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Re: No Lead for predation hunting-your next

Post by nikegundog » Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:17 pm

3 britts wrote:
Dave and Charlie,

following any organization blindly, as the two of you seem to be doing is simply dangerous.
My comment about you FOLLOWED this comments by you.
Secondly I think that you are the ONLY person on this forum who would have a problem with me saying the the "NRA takes a pro-hunting stance"

But since you are always up for a good laugh go the ABC website and check what they're against:
Wind power
Solar power
Oil drilling
Highline poles
cats
barbwire
fishing hooks
By all means this is the organization you should get all you info from.
And don't forget to leave your lights in your house off at night during the fall migration season because you are responsible for killing thousands of birds.

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Re: No Lead for predation hunting-your next

Post by birddogger » Thu Mar 31, 2011 6:55 pm

3britts, you are apparently not reading my posts closely enough. I think I may have stepped on some toes when the perception may have been that I was talking about a person's favorite political party, when that was not the case. I tried to explain that my posts were off topic by not talking about the lead shot debate. I don't know what my opinion is on that yet. I was talking about the left.....The activists like the hollywood crowd with their biased movies and sitcoms, the news media, the college universities and all of the other organizations trying to erode our freedoms. These people are the ones who are closed minded and the threats are very real. It is an insult to say that the NRA tells me how to think or vote on anything or for anybody. I new of these threats long before becoming an NRA member. I joined the NRA because they work to protect the second amendment, to keep up on the anti gun legislation and to do what I can to support that cause.

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Re: No Lead for predation hunting-your next

Post by birddogger » Thu Mar 31, 2011 7:00 pm

nikegundog, good post.
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Re: No Lead for predation hunting-your next

Post by 3Britts » Fri Apr 01, 2011 6:14 am

nikegundog wrote:3 britts wrote:
Dave and Charlie,

following any organization blindly, as the two of you seem to be doing is simply dangerous.
My comment about you FOLLOWED this comments by you.
Secondly I think that you are the ONLY person on this forum who would have a problem with me saying the the "NRA takes a pro-hunting stance"

But since you are always up for a good laugh go the ABC website and check what they're against:
Wind power
Solar power
Oil drilling
Highline poles
cats
barbwire
fishing hooks
By all means this is the organization you should get all you info from.
And don't forget to leave your lights in your house off at night during the fall migration season because you are responsible for killing thousands of birds.
If you are going to say it, post the links.
And yes, I am against cats too.

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Re: No Lead for predation hunting-your next

Post by nikegundog » Fri Apr 01, 2011 6:28 am

The American Bird Conservancy Website.

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Re: No Lead for predation hunting-your next

Post by 3Britts » Mon Apr 04, 2011 9:37 am

nikegundog wrote:The American Bird Conservancy Website.
So, what you are telling all of us is that you have not checked this out for yourself, but have trusted the American Bird conservancy to tell you what is happening?
I personally like to study for myself, from the source, before making statements of fact. That way I know what was really said and am not just following blindly.

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Re: No Lead for predation hunting-your next

Post by nikegundog » Mon Apr 04, 2011 11:03 am

So, what you are telling all of us is that you have not checked this out for yourself, but have trusted the American Bird conservancy to tell you what is happening?
Thanks for that post NGD, I needed a good laugh today. Any other missinformation you would like to give?
yea, I can almost see where I am anti-hunting.
3 Britts, I don't mind a open argument, and think some information can be gained from them. What I do mind in when you simple lie about what I said. I never never called you anti-hunting, I didn't give you and false information, and I never said I didn't read the study. Every time you post on this thread you tend not to put out an arguement to defend your point, instead you lie about what others say. Yes, I did accuse you of following the ABC blindly and that was in response to you accusing Dave and Charlie of following the NRA blindly. I will bow out of this thread because of the way it has turned.

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Re: No Lead for predation hunting-your next

Post by 3Britts » Mon Apr 04, 2011 12:59 pm

You were the one that turned the thread into what it became and then blame others.
Shame on you. As far as I can tell, you only like an open discussion when those involved agree with your stand on the issue.
You have taken parts and tried to pass them off as the whole of a post. Again, shame on you.
Shame on you.

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Re: No Lead for predation hunting-your next

Post by nikegundog » Mon Apr 04, 2011 1:11 pm

Again not true

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Re: No Lead for predation hunting-your next

Post by 3Britts » Mon Apr 04, 2011 1:34 pm

nikegundog wrote:3Britts, I know what the Federalist Papers said, however I don't think it validates your point at all. The NRA is fighting for hunting rights as well as gun rights, I don't see how that is a bad thing even if hunting rights was not the intent of our founding fathers. I think you may be the one following organizations blindly. The ABC has an anti-hunting stance and will use any study they can find to push their agenda.
Here you said that I blindly follow the ABC and that they have an anit-hunting stance. Maybe you should reread your posts so that you remember what it is that you have said before you call another person a lier. As far as I can see, you have been the person who has misrepresented the truth throughout your posting on this thread,.

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Re: No Lead for predation hunting-your next

Post by nikegundog » Mon Apr 04, 2011 1:41 pm

Nike wrote,
Yes, I did accuse you of following the ABC blindly and that was in response to you accusing Dave and Charlie of following the NRA blindly.
I posted this an hour 1/2 ago and admitted to it and defended why I said it, I did not lie or misrepresent anything as you continue to do. Clearly you did not read what I wrote before you responded. Besides that ONE point can you name anywhere else on this thread that I misrepresented anything?

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Re: No Lead for predation hunting-your next

Post by 3Britts » Mon Apr 04, 2011 3:35 pm

You posted it on March 23. You can't even quote yourself right. :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: No Lead for predation hunting-your next

Post by nikegundog » Mon Apr 04, 2011 3:56 pm

You posted it on March 23. You can't even quote yourself right. :lol: :lol: :lol:
And again today

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Ryman Gun Dog
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Re: No Lead for predation hunting-your next

Post by Ryman Gun Dog » Tue Apr 12, 2011 10:44 pm

3britts,
Got to admit I am against Cats also.
RGD/Dave

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SubMariner
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Re: No Lead for predation hunting-your next

Post by SubMariner » Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:08 am

ezzy333 wrote:Don't quite see how a mindset of losing rights has much todo with removing something from the environment that has been found to be harmful to the very thing we are promoting, our wildlife.Losing rights and using common sense are two different things and when they clash then I think common sense should prevail.

Ezzy
Well said!
=SubMariner=
No matter where you go, there you are!

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Pappy
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Location: Bakersfield Ca

Re: No Lead for predation hunting-your next

Post by Pappy » Fri Oct 26, 2012 9:11 am

Let see Lead or No Lead.

Since the 1800 people have been using lead in there guns for a very long time. I have never heard of anyone dieing from lead poisoning from a bullet in which was used to kill a deer, elk or other game. What about all that lead in the paint back in the 60s. I am here today, and still breathing. All this started in this screw up State of Ca in which I live in. Lets save the Condor. The birds are eating carcases that have lead bullets in them. What a crock of "bleep". I sure see alot of crows, hawks and other birds sitll flying around. If you look closely and do your research. You will find that a group of scientist, anti hunters. environmental groups, anti gun people are all about banding the lead bullets. This is the first step in getting rid of our ammunition and guns. Pertty soon they will becoming after the non lead ammunition next.

slistoe
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Re: No Lead for predation hunting-your next

Post by slistoe » Fri Oct 26, 2012 6:15 pm

3Britts wrote:Hey, I'll bite.

I, for one, have no problem not using lead in my shotgun.
The mindset is one of not poisoning everything with all of that extra lead that doesn't hit the game.
There are certain places/conditions in which lead poses a risk to non-target species. It is absolutely not a generalized problem - so whey overreact with a generalized solution when the vast majority of situations are risk free - such as field hunting for pest management of birds. You are a good example of what "they" hope to accomplish with the pressure of public opinion through fear mongering.

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