Ch. Qualifying

NAVHDA, AKC, NSTRA
Post Reply
User avatar
DGFavor
GDF Junkie
Posts: 1949
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2006 1:55 am
Location: Pocatello, ID

Ch. Qualifying

Post by DGFavor » Tue Aug 14, 2012 9:32 am

Didn't want to muddle up the other event thread so thought I'd start this one:
The NGSPA trials are AF trials so that would count towards a placement to be able to run in the trial.
I don't know if that is entirely true - the dog would still have to have been awarded a win cert from it's placement in a trial by a club in good standing (i.e. paid their dues) with the AFTCA. Many of the AKC/NGSPA clubs don't pay their AFTCA dues so placements don't count for Ch. qualifiers. A GSP that won our Reg. 9 ASD Ch. a few years ago that had already won a handful of NGSPA Ch's but never one that awarded a win cert, had it's Reg 9 ASD Ch. win nullified since it technically wasn't qualified to run in the first place. There was another AKC breed club out this way a couple years ago that advertised a dual sanctioned trial to earn dogs AKC points as well as AF qualifications that hadn't kept up their AFTCA regional dues/AFTCA dues so none of the placements counted. I believe the same sort of rules apply to handlers as well - don't handlers have to have a qualification as well at some point??

I know of two other dogs that last year had Ch's nullified after ultimately not having their qualifications in order - one of them won like a 70+ dog SD Ch. If you have any doubts your dog is qualified a quick call to Piper Huffman would probably answer the question.

User avatar
ElhewPointer
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 882
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2006 9:24 pm

Re: Ch. Qualifying

Post by ElhewPointer » Tue Aug 14, 2012 10:00 am

This has nothing to do with the AFTCA. This is an Open Championship.

User avatar
DGFavor
GDF Junkie
Posts: 1949
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2006 1:55 am
Location: Pocatello, ID

Re: Ch. Qualifying

Post by DGFavor » Tue Aug 14, 2012 10:15 am

This has nothing to do with the AFTCA. This is an Open Championship.
That's why I put this in separate thread. That said I believe the AFTCA administers the win certs/etc for being qualified open and/or Am - at least as it was explained to me. Basically I was just trying to say be sure your dog is qualified to run where you wanna run 'em, trying to help my stubbie bruthas out!! :lol:

In your premium it states "Entry must have a placement in recognized open derby or open SD stakes" It's been my understanding the AFTCA is the body that does "the recognizing" - at least submits the win certs (the AF maybe just recognizes the placements from their data base...???):

From AFTCA:
MINIMUM REQUIREMENTS FOR FIELD
TRIALS FOR ALL POINTING BREEDS

Section 1. Wins will not be recognized and recorded unless the trial/or each stake in which such win is made conforms to the following conditions as adopted by Amateur Field Trial Clubs of America, Inc., the American Field Publishing Company, and The Field Dog Stud Book:

Section 2. The name of the club, place, and date of the trial, and the Secretary’s name and address must be announced in an issue of “The American Field” bearing publication date of at least fourteen days before the trials are to be run.



RECOGNIZED STAKES

Section 3. Recognized stakes are:
(a) Puppy Stakes: From January 1 to July1 in each year for dogs whelped on or after January 1 of the year preceding. From July1 to December 1 of each year for dogs whelped on or after June 1 of the year preceding.
(b) Derby Stakes: From July 1 to December 1 in each year for dogs whelped on or after January 1 of the year preceding, and from January 1 to July 1 in each year for dogs whelped on or after January 1 of two years preceding.
(c) All-Age Stakes: For dogs of any age. An “open stake” is one in which there are no limitations with respect to either dogs or handlers. An “amateur stake” is one in which all handlers are amateur as defined in Chapter 3, Article II, Section 1, RULES AND REGULATIONS FOR FIELD TRIALS.
(d) Winners in Members and Gun Dog or Shooting Dog stakes shall be recorded and win certificates issued, but winners of children’s, ladies’, brace, and other stakes not conforming to the definitions contained under this Section will not be recognized.
(e) Championships, Winner’s Stakes and Futurities: Wins will be recorded only in such amateur events of the above character as are recognized by the Amateur Field Trial Clubs of America, Inc. and in such open events as are recognized by the American Field Publishing Company and the Field Dog Stud Book.

Section 4. The minimum length of heats for all stakes other than Puppy Stakes shall be thirty minutes, on the basis of the time that an average brace takes to negotiate the course. In the case of one-course trials, no more than eight minutes of the thirty shall be spent in the bird field. Minimum length of heats for Puppy Stakes shall be fifteen minutes.

Section 5. A stake must be drawn by lot and numbered in the order drawn, in a convenient and approved place open to the public not later than the night before the day the stake is due to run.

Section 6. Dogs shall not be substituted after the draw.

Section 7. All braces shall be run as drawn except with the prior consent of the judges and handlers, which consent must not be given for the purpose of accommodating owners handlers or dogs that are not available when reached in the regular order of the draw.

(a) Should there be a bye in the stake, the judges may, at their discretion, order it to be run alone or with a dog selected by them for the purpose. Provided, however, that if a dog from any regularly drawn full brace should be withdrawn, fail to appear or be disqualified, the bye dog shall be named by the judges to run with the dog remaining in that particular brace, the bye moved up to fill the vacancy caused by the absent dog. In the event there is no bye, then such dog losing its brace-mate, as previously contemplated, must be run in its regular order of drawing, either alone or with a dog as a running mate that is satisfactory to the judges. In the event that there be two withdrawals from different brace, the brace-mate of such withdrawn dogs may be run together where the first vacancy occurs, or in their regular order, at the discretion of the judges. This same rules applies if there be four or any even number of dogs withdrawn from the stake.
(b) All stakes should be so arranged that if at all possible, no more than one bye dog is drawn or run. Except where there is an uneven number of starters in a stake, no bye should ordinarily occur. For example, in the event the drawing by lot has two dogs handled by the same person remaining as the last in the stake, the bracing is rearranged with the last previous available dog drawn not so handled, changing places with the first drawn of the final two dogs.
Section 8. No entry shall be accepted after the stake is drawn.

Section 9. No more than one brace of dogs shall run on a course, or any part of a course at the same time, irrespective of whether the dogs are in the same stake or in different stakes.

Section 10. Stakes shall be run only on recognized game birds whose flight has not been impaired by caging, hobbling, wing clipping, brailing, or in any other manner.

Section 11. Bitches in season shall not be permitted to run in one-course trials. In multiple-course trials, they may start only if, in the opinion of the judges, it can be accomplished under conditions which will insure absolute fairness to other entries.

Section 12. Wins will not be recorded, or if recorded, will be cancelled if made at a trial or in a stake not conforming to the above requirements.

The one thing I don't see mentioned here is that the club itself must be in good standing with the AFTCA but I'm pretty certain that needs to be the case as well.
Last edited by DGFavor on Tue Aug 14, 2012 10:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
DGFavor
GDF Junkie
Posts: 1949
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2006 1:55 am
Location: Pocatello, ID

Re: Ch. Qualifying

Post by DGFavor » Tue Aug 14, 2012 10:31 am

Just found this one where the handler wasn't qualified - from the Field:

A Postscript

It is with a great deal of regret that I address the following issue that occurred after the Championship was concluded. Dakota Sun, handled by local club member Brannon Tippitt and co-owned by Jim Crawford of Pine Bush, N. Y., was named the champion. “Sam” had done a tremendous job with three flawless finds dead to the front. Brannon sat in front of the judges showing his charge with ease. A championship performance from start to finish.

A few nights later, the stake manager received a call questioning the eligibility of Brannon as a handler for a regional championship. After an investigation by the executive committee of Region 6, it was determined that a violation had occurred. Under the AFTCA’s Chapter 3 Running Rules and Regulations for field trials, Article 1, Section 6 under Handlers, subsection d, it states: “To compete in regional and national championships a handler must have at some time qualified a dog by winning an AFTCA win certificate.”

Brannon had handled on several occasions and had scouted many winners, but had never placed a dog in competition, leaving him ineligible. As sad as this was for Brannon, it is worse for Dakota Sun. Brannon is still young and has the ability and skill to win other championships. Sam is no longer young. After taking a small survey, probably 60 to 70 percent didn’t know about the above rule. Everyone knew the dog must have a win certificate, but not the handler.

This may prompt all to reread the AFTCA’s By-Laws and Running Rules.

User avatar
DGFavor
GDF Junkie
Posts: 1949
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2006 1:55 am
Location: Pocatello, ID

Re: Ch. Qualifying

Post by DGFavor » Tue Aug 14, 2012 10:37 am

Finally found what I was looking for - Open Ch's, from the Field:

Qualifications for Competitors in Championship Stakes
Occurrences at Championships Illustrate the Issue
Jun 01, 2012
Instances that occurred at two major shooting dog championships this past season, where dogs were named winners but did not have the proper qualification to compete in those stakes, has graphically brought home the point that this matter be addressed, which leads us to update and republish at this time, an article which first appeared earlier this year.

We will be providing followup information on this topic soon and it will be carried permanently for reference among the information listed on the Field Dog Stud Book page of this website.

The following article originally appeared in The American Field issue dated March 10, 2012:

Major events in every sporting pastime require individuals, or teams, to “qualify” in order to compete in them.

Examples are many. In Major League Baseball and the NFL, for example, a playoff system is in place to reach the World Series and the Super Bowl. In golf, players must win certain events that accord them eligibility to compete in, say, the U. S. Open, the Masters or the British Open.

Field trials are no different. In order for dogs to complete in championship stakes they must be qualified, i.e.: Dogs must have a qualifying win — a placement that accords eligibility for a dog to be entered and to compete in titular stakes.

Circumstances surrounding the 2011 Arkansas Open Shooting Dog Championship and the 2012 Oregon Open Shooting Dog Championship bring this requirement of the sport into timely focus. It is unfortunate when any deserving placement cannot be rewarded because a dog did not have the requisite qualifying placement to compete in a stake; however, but it is incumbent on owners and handlers to assure a dog's eligibility before entering it in a championship stake.

Only three stakes — the Continental, National Free-for-All and Southern Championships — require no previous qualification. Each of these stakes has a “qualifying series,” and dogs called back for the championship finals are deemed to have earned “a placement” to compete in the finals.

The National Championship and the National Open Shooting Dog Championship have established their own specific “qualifications” for dogs to be entered and to compete in those events.

Qualification for open shooting dog championships requires dogs to have earned an open shooting dog or open Derby placement. For open all-age championships (excluding the three earlier noted stakes), for dogs to compete they must have earned an open all-age or open Derby placement.

So that there is no ambiguity regarding the required qualification, clubs sponsoring major circuit all-age and shooting dog championships customarily indicate the requirements when announcing the upcoming trial.

The Amateur Field Trial Clubs of America has similar requirements for dogs competing in National Amateur and Regional Championships. [Two amateur championship wins have been voided in the past 12 months for dogs not meeting AFTCA requirements.]

User avatar
ElhewPointer
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 882
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2006 9:24 pm

Re: Ch. Qualifying

Post by ElhewPointer » Tue Aug 14, 2012 10:48 am

Doug,

You are getting way ahead of yourself here. I just got off the phone with Bernie and any derby or broke dog placement recognized by the FDSB, not the AFTCA is a qualified to run in an OPEN championship. The ones you found, the dogs had no placements. A NGSPA placement qualifies to run in an OPEN championship.

User avatar
DGFavor
GDF Junkie
Posts: 1949
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2006 1:55 am
Location: Pocatello, ID

Re: Ch. Qualifying

Post by DGFavor » Tue Aug 14, 2012 11:02 am

:lol: :lol: Not ahead of myself!! Just pointing out that folks better not assume if they've placed in an NGSPA championship they'd be qualified to run in all championships which is sort of what your statement sounded like - I knew what you meant regarding your trial but have seen folks unfortunately get into trouble so wanted to clarify! Again, that's why I didn't put this under your open championship thread and used the phrase "not entirely true" to try and point out some differences. :wink:

User avatar
dan v
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1166
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2007 12:33 pm
Location: Central MN

Re: Ch. Qualifying

Post by dan v » Tue Aug 14, 2012 7:31 pm

Here's a question. I handled a dog to a AA win earlier this spring. It was a Brit FT in which it was sanctioned AKC and Am. Fld......but not AFTCA. So is the dog Q'd for a OSD Ch.? or a AF AA Ch.? Or both?
Dan

RayGubernat
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3309
Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2008 11:47 am
Location: Central DE

Re: Ch. Qualifying

Post by RayGubernat » Tue Aug 14, 2012 8:38 pm

Wyndancer wrote:Here's a question. I handled a dog to a AA win earlier this spring. It was a Brit FT in which it was sanctioned AKC and Am. Fld......but not AFTCA. So is the dog Q'd for a OSD Ch.? or a AF AA Ch.? Or both?
Assuming the win was an open AA, that should qualify the dog for an AF (Open) all age Ch. It should not qualify the dog for an AF (open)Shooting Dog Ch. stake. If it was an Amateur All age AKC stake, it don't qualify the dog for anything since it was not AFTCA sancdtioned

If it were an open derby plcement it would have qualified the dog for both Shooting Dog and All Age Ch.

At least that is what I think, for whatever that is worth.

RayG

User avatar
dan v
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1166
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2007 12:33 pm
Location: Central MN

Re: Ch. Qualifying

Post by dan v » Thu Aug 16, 2012 7:36 pm

Ray,

It was an Open AA stake.....again to be clear, AKC and Am. Fld sanctioned. I have a ASD (AFTCA win cert in hand) placement with the same dog.
Dan

User avatar
DGFavor
GDF Junkie
Posts: 1949
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2006 1:55 am
Location: Pocatello, ID

Re: Ch. Qualifying

Post by DGFavor » Sat Aug 18, 2012 9:42 pm

I'd say in theory the dog is qualified to enter OAA Ch's...but nothing beats having a win cert in hand proclaiming it to be so!! :wink: I think you oughta go enter and double up on wins at the All American and US Chicken Ch's...then have 'em tell ya' you're dogs not qualified to be there!! :lol: :lol:

RayGubernat
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3309
Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2008 11:47 am
Location: Central DE

Re: Ch. Qualifying

Post by RayGubernat » Sun Aug 19, 2012 8:14 am

Wyndancer -

I agree that the win should qualify the dog for OAA championships. It may, or may not not qualify the dog for OSD championships. THAT I would check out with Mr. Matthys.

The ASD win cert would qualify your dog for any ASD championships. It would not qualify the dog for Open SD championships.

So your dog should be qualified for OAA and ASD championships and NOT qualified for AAA or OSD events.

I just had a thought....

If "someone" were to pay the AFTCA dues for the sponsoring Brittany club, it is entirely possible that the AFTCA woud recognize the OAA win, IF there was no purse. That would qualify the dog for AAA events and get you an AFTCA win cert for that AKC OAA win. If that is of interest to you, I would contact Piper Huffman to see if it could be done. I think the dues are a hundred bucks.

RayG

User avatar
dan v
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1166
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2007 12:33 pm
Location: Central MN

Re: Ch. Qualifying

Post by dan v » Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:20 am

DGFavor wrote:I'd say in theory the dog is qualified to enter OAA Ch's...but nothing beats having a win cert in hand proclaiming it to be so!! :wink: I think you oughta go enter and double up on wins at the All American and US Chicken Ch's...then have 'em tell ya' you're dogs not qualified to be there!! :lol: :lol:
Gotta tell ya....if I had the money/time....that would AWESOME!!! Black & Tan setter at the All American.
Dan

User avatar
dan v
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1166
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2007 12:33 pm
Location: Central MN

Re: Ch. Qualifying

Post by dan v » Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:25 am

Ray,

Yes the AFTCA dues are $100...that ain't worth it. And that what I find with our Gordon club and the local AKC clubs. You pay the AKC their application fee ($35), then you pay them the $3.50/dog....then you pay the ad for the Field...and then pay the AFTCA for the one or two events you put on? Sorry, there just has to be a limit.

I think I'll call Bernie and get the skinny.
Dan

myerstenn
Rank: Champion
Posts: 300
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2008 10:23 am

Re: Ch. Qualifying

Post by myerstenn » Wed Aug 29, 2012 11:56 am

The ngspa is not associated with the AFTCA and therefore issues it own win certificate, these certs do not necessarily qualify you for a championship outside of the NGSPA

User avatar
DGFavor
GDF Junkie
Posts: 1949
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2006 1:55 am
Location: Pocatello, ID

Re: Ch. Qualifying

Post by DGFavor » Wed Aug 29, 2012 3:19 pm

The ngspa is not associated with the AFTCA and therefore issues it own win certificate, these certs do not necessarily qualify you for a championship outside of the NGSPA


Yah, what Ned said!! :lol:

I just heard yesterday in the NGSPA ranks that a dog that won an NGSPA Ch. last spring is not being recognized since it wasn't qualified to run. I really think it would help some of the GSP folks to go hit a couple local all breed/"pointer setter" qualifiers to better aquaint themselves with the rules/qualifications/AFTCA club requirements/etc. regarding the "traditional" (for lack of better term) AF Ch. trials. Seems to be some misconceptions that have unfortunately cost a couple well deserving dogs and handlers a Ch. going down in the books. Like I mentioned elsewhere, nothing spells it out any clearer regarding what the dog is qualified for than having an AFTCA win cert in your hands.

User avatar
ElhewPointer
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 882
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2006 9:24 pm

Re: Ch. Qualifying

Post by ElhewPointer » Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:56 am

What about open. The AFTCA doesn't have anything to do with Open Championships. I called the Field and I was told that it would qualify a dog for an open championship.

Post Reply