NSTRA - How does it compare?

[ArcticRetrievers]

I just saw some forever ago posts on this subject with a-lot of "Bad - Press" If we could keep that to a minimum, That'd be great! Looking for Factual Positive, or negative answers please

Hey all,
I wanted to ask how NSTRA Trials compare to any other Trial out there? What do you like better? What dont you like? How do you feel about how they're run?

I have been to many Trials But NSTRA trials are not available in my area, and I wanted to know how they function comparing them to other trials. I also would like to know the general workings of the trial.

I.E.
What is expected of the Hosts
What all is invoved during the trials
ETC.

I have read the rulebooks, but nothing beats firsthand knowledge and experience.
This is something new to me, so any help is great

Thanks,
Arctic

[kninebirddog]

It is another format which people have to choose to have fun in.

I know most trials the trials fill having 32 dogs in each field.
Even areas where the trials may not fill up they still get 24 dogs to make a 3 point trial

Dogs need to hold point at least until the handler flushes if the dog is in motion before the bird has left its resting place they loose their work
The dog has to be able to be called off a bird..in case it is unsafe to shoot it or if it flushes wild and becomes marks ..Kinda like being in an area where you can't shoot a hen pheasant ..you don't need you dog chasing that bird .

the dog must retrieve birds to the handler to receive their scores

Dog like many other regular weekend stakes Have to run a full thirty minutes actively hunting
most places hold what is called a double double this means you can technically run you dog in 4 stakes over the weekend

You are braced against another register pointing breed

The better trained your dog is your scores will over all reflect this

Also like with any Man made up format your smarter dogs will figure it out your more biddable dogs will learn it and play it well

There have been 3 dogs to make a pretty good mark in NSTRA over the years
32x CH Nolan's Last Bullet a brittany
25x Ch Crow's Little Joe a pointer
25x Ch Stephens Bright Copper a pointer a crows Little joe son
the owners of these dogs devoted many many weekends and efforts to getting their dogs to this many titles



I don't think it is the end all but then I do not think ANY trial is the end all ...
They all offer something which obviously make people come back for more
I know at our national trials like Dog of the year every year it fills up with extra dogs on the bye list should someone not have to scratch their dog...that is 192 dogs coming from all over the country

Like with anything it is what You make of it you can just come and run your dog or you can roll your sleeves up and help out

I choose NSTRA because I could run more trials then what the local breed club had to offer

I enjoy going to other trials and supporting my friends I feel it is very important to support the different venues out there kinda like anything some like one thing some like another it doesn't make one better then another just different

kinda like a game of pool some people like 8 ball some like 9 ball some like straight pool and all varying different games in between same table same balls same cue sticks same felt unless of course your playing snooker still have table ball cue sticks and pockets then there is billiards table stick ball and no pockets...

[ckirsch]

Question on NSTRA retrieves;

If the dogs are not required to be steady, and you have a point / back situation, it would seem that you would have both dogs vying for the retrieve. How is that handled?

[kninebirddog]

dogs have to be steady to flush

and the backing dog is collared.The handler and pointing dog must wait untill backing dog is collared before the handler can finish their bird work

[ArcticRetrievers]

Thanks, I appreciate the Reply K nine. It answered a lot of my questions.

[birddogger]

dogs have to be steady to flush

and the backing dog is collared.The handler and pointing dog must wait untill backing dog is collared before the handler can finish their bird work

Also, if another dog happens to try to get the bird from the retrieving dog, interference is called and the first dog is credited with the retrieve.

Charlie

[Neil]

kinda like a game of pool some people like 8 ball some like 9 ball some like straight pool and all varying different games in between same table same balls same cue sticks same felt unless of course your playing snooker still have table ball cue sticks and pockets then there is billiards table stick ball and no pockets...

Since the largest NSTRA field is 40 acres compared to 3,000 for some horseback field trials, I think for the pool analogy to hold you would have to make some adjustments to the size of the table.

I just don't understand how someone that has ever competed in a horseback trial would think it is the same as different pool games.

Both are great ways to enjoy our pointing dogs, but why compare them as only slightly different?

Neil

[mrcreole]

I compete in NSTRA trials because they are affordable and don't require a horse. I enjoy them immensly. I would however like there to be an incentive for broke dogs. I think steadiness to wing and shot should be pushed for safety reasons if nothing else.

[birddog1968]

I compete in NSTRA trials because they are affordable and don't require a horse. I enjoy them immensly. I would however like there to be an incentive for broke dogs. I think steadiness to wing and shot should be pushed for safety reasons if nothing else.

There used to be, as I am told, but easing the rules allowed more folks to compete with their dogs......

Dogs do not have to be steady to flush in Nstra , least not the ones Ive attended. They have to be steady until the flush....

Steady to Wing/shot sounds good but it eliminates folks from competing at this point and Nstra is only about 2000 members.

[kninebirddog]

A dog that is steady to shot should score a better then a dog that is anticipating the flush and getting sloppy on point as the handler walks in...Point scores stops when the bird leaves the resting place and yes I will knock points off a dog that as the handler walks in mentally is leaving the point and lowering the body to get ready to run BEFORE the bird has been flushed How bad the dog changes position with out moving the feet will depend on how hard I will knock them If they are moving the feet in a forward motion not just putting a foot down if they had a paw up on point but a forward motion before the bird is flushed/moved I will and have taken bird work away as that is the rules the dog is to remain on point till the bird is flushed or moved from its resting place by the handler or after an established point and the bird wild flushes

and that is what Safety calls are for when there is an unsafe situation there then the dog gets an average of their retrieves.

On a side note A pup from one of my breedings well not a pup anymore but anyways the guy who is mostly a NSTRA trialer went and tried an open walking gundog stake with the vizsla club it was a retrieve stake he won it was a 4 pt major so he is gonna try and play both games for a while ...All about having fun with our dogs.

[kninebirddog]

1. FIND
SCORE: 0-100 (Scoring begins when the dog makes game)
PLUS FACTORS:
Exceptional style
Remains steady regardless of interference
Extreme intensity
Hard, slam point
Remains high and intent during long difficult flush attempt
Good game location
Works scent intelligently

Application: If the dog is in full motion when the flush occurs the find will not be scored. The bird is marked for
three minutes. 5/92

Application: When a dog is on point and the handler/gunner is making several attempts to flush at different areas
of cover and the bird walks out of the cover, between the handler and dog. At that moment the flush has occurred
and the dog can break point and be scored on the find but the score should be lowered. Be sure the handler’s
presence is what caused the bird to flush from his cover. 4/93

Application: Dogs that flush a bird on their own before or after point has been established shall be given a
warning with the first infraction and shall be picked up after a second infraction. 8/04

[ezzy333]

Lets get back to the OP's question as to how NSTRA and AKC or AF trials compare. We can talk about the scoring on another thread .

Ezzy

[kninebirddog]

Actually by understanding how it is scored one can see where there are some things that can be similar in the basics of training thus where a dog can be run in NSTRA and then also go run at least a gundog stake All depends on how how far one wants to maintain their dogs..the better trained the better the score should be if the judges are doing their jobs

Brenda and Ricks Fritz dog is another example where a NSTRA dog can run AKC trials and NAvdha and even a retrieve title and also the first dog to get a title in both that we know of 1x NSTRA Ch FC AFC Lobo's Mahogany Blaze

So for a dog to be able to run the different venues we have available there has to be some similarities run find birds point birds also being in shape to handle running a 30 minute stake if a dog peters out before the brace is up in AKC they are picked up jude is no longer looking at them in NSTRA they loose ground cover score so from 30 minute to 60 minute they need to display the desire to run and handle which FYI both have an hour stakes at championship levels and the dog has to run the full brace.

[slistoe]

Brenda and Ricks Fritz dog is another example where a NSTRA dog can run AKC trials and NAvdha and even a retrieve title and also the first dog to get a title in both that we know of 1x NSTRA Ch FC AFC Lobo's Mahogany Blaze

"Lobo's" is a NSTRA dog? You are kidding, right?
You have things backwards methinks. I don't know the dog but am familiar with the kennel name and I would put it as an example of the fact that a dog run in AKC trials is more than capable of competing in NSTRA. You would be hard pressed to find an AKC FC that could not be made into a serviceable NSTRA dog with a little training. The opposite is not necessarily true IMO.

What are the differences? Neil has pointed out the obvious one - size of ground that the dog is asked to work in the same time span. # of birds available to be found also differs. In "planted bird" horseback trials where the # of birds is controlled the minimum size of ground would be about 320 acres and there are 2 birds put down for each brace of dogs. Compare that to the 5 birds put down per brace in a maximum of 40 acres.

[ckirsch]

K9;

Thanks for explaining some of the differences between NSTRA and other venues, including the scoring. Very helpful. I suspect that is exactly what the OP was looking for.

[kninebirddog]

Brenda and Ricks Fritz dog is another example where a NSTRA dog can run AKC trials and NAvdha and even a retrieve title and also the first dog to get a title in both that we know of 1x NSTRA Ch FC AFC Lobo's Mahogany Blaze

"Lobo's" is a NSTRA dog? You are kidding, right?
You have things backwards methinks. I don't know the dog but am familiar with the kennel name and I would put it as an example of the fact that a dog run in AKC trials is more than capable of competing in NSTRA. You would be hard pressed to find an AKC FC that could not be made into a serviceable NSTRA dog with a little training. The opposite is not necessarily true IMO.

Lobo's Mahogany Blaze http://www.nstra.org/Members/detail.asp?idnum=4078 the first dog we know of that went from a NSTRA Ch and NSTRA Regional Ch and went on to AKC to become an FC/AFC http://www.remekvizslas.net/dog.php4?id=27320 I have his daughter Tucalota Creek Picabo

Yes Woody was the first breeding of Lobo's Blazin Candy man to Lobo's Blazin Gypsy Girl

and to add the owner of Woody and I are pretty good friends ed is more like my extended family

Takes a good dog to win trials no matter how one tries to dissect the game they are just that, games .Dog runs finds birds and is under judgment, one venue is an over all view the other is under a scoring system, One venue the person really doesn't know where their dog sits the other venue the person knows exactly what their score is and where they are on the board they are run on pen raised birds from the same suppliers some days they fly well and some days you better have a dog that will handle walking birds.

I don't know of any dogs that were Gundog then come over and titled in NSTRA not to say there isn't but would be neat to find out and see more dogs show just how talented they can be..I see people bring over dogs that failed in AF AKC trials thinking NSTRA was gonna be easy, only to find out a dog that isn't a trial dog ...doesn't matter what venue it just isn't a trial dog

[slistoe]

Just saying that regardless of where the owner started working with the dog, characterizing a dog that is double bred HOF Beans Blaze with a sire who was a 2 time placer of the National Amateur Ch. and sire of numerous AKC and AF placing offspring as a NSTRA dog is rather disingenuous.

[ezzy333]

Brenda and Ricks Fritz dog is another example where a NSTRA dog can run AKC trials and NAvdha and even a retrieve title and also the first dog to get a title in both that we know of 1x NSTRA Ch FC AFC Lobo's Mahogany Blaze

Slistoe, you lost me on where Lobo's Mahogany Blaze was characterized as any thing but the first dog to title in both NSTRA and AKC trials.

Ezzy

[slistoe]

Brenda and Ricks Fritz dog is another example where a NSTRA dog can run AKC trials and NAvdha and even a retrieve title and also the first dog to get a title in both that we know of 1x NSTRA Ch FC AFC Lobo's Mahogany Blaze

Slistoe, you lost me on where Lobo's Mahogany Blaze was characterized as any thing but the first dog to title in both NSTRA and AKC trials.

Ezzy

OK, perhaps it is a poorly constructed sentence and Brenda and Ricks Fritz dog is not 1x NSTRA Ch FC AFC Lobo's Mahogany Blaze.

[kninebirddog]

Sorry
I will admit English was not my strong subject

Lobo's Mahogany Blaze aka Woody was the first dog we know of to attain both NSTRA and AKC titles


Fritz Rick and Brendas dog being the second getting NSTRA multi cH and then a DC AFC MH NAVDHA and something else..Fritz has more titles then name I tried to convince Brenda to take Fritz through Obedience to get the first Tri Champion title..she said she wouldn't do that to Fritz

[slistoe]

Ok, I just looked up Fritz. Disingenuous still applies. Both dogs are classic examples that the rigors of traditional field trial competition WORKS to produce dogs that are up to the task that the owners should choose to apply them to.

[ezzy333]

Ok, I just looked up Fritz. Disingenuous still applies. Both dogs are classic examples that the rigors of traditional field trial competition WORKS to produce dogs that are up to the task that the owners should choose to apply them to.

What in the world are you talking about?

Ezzy

[kensfishing]

There is still no comparison from NSTRA to Field Trials. I've run them both. The one is scored by a person who looks at a dog differently and scores what he likes. If he likes a high tail that dog scores higher. In AKC you can still walk a trial. The rules state that a foot handler gets priority on the ground. Alot of horse people don't like it but it's in the rules. I've watched many people walk with horses.They also have walking trials. I judge a dog on it's run, application to the cover, not just running a straight line. How they handle birds, intensity on point. Most of the time the dogs or the handlers make the difference on who wins. They all aren't retreiving stakes either. It's a controlled shoot if they shoot at all. There are plenty of dogs that compete in AKC that would excel in NSTRA and very few NSTRA dogs can compete in AKC. Just my two cents.

[slistoe]

is another example where a NSTRA dog can run AKC trials

Ezzy, both dogs cited are a product of the best breeding production that the AKC trial system has to offer. Double and triple up on Hall of Fame producers. They can in no way be characterized as NSTRA dogs simply because the owners chose to start their field careers in that venue.

[kninebirddog]

There is still no comparison from NSTRA to Field Trials. I've run them both. The one is scored by a person who looks at a dog differently and scores what he likes. If he likes a high tail that dog scores higher. In AKC you can still walk a trial. The rules state that a foot handler gets priority on the ground. Alot of horse people don't like it but it's in the rules. I've watched many people walk with horses.They also have walking trials. I judge a dog on it's run, application to the cover, not just running a straight line. How they handle birds, intensity on point. Most of the time the dogs or the handlers make the difference on who wins. They all aren't retreiving stakes either. It's a controlled shoot if they shoot at all. There are plenty of dogs that compete in AKC that would excel in NSTRA and very few NSTRA dogs can compete in AKC. Just my two cents.

That is how a dog is also scored in NSTRA the dogs is judged by Point retrieve ground cover and Obedience one format the judge writes a score the other the judge puts down on his notes which dog had the best run at the end of the day. Showed t the front when the handler calls out to them or be found on point
A dog that is constantly coming up from behind isn't going to score a good obedience in NSTRA in AKC/AF the dog isn't going to be looked at

and slistoe so you are saying that a dog that COMES from lines like let say the 8 gen pedigree has lines from Bullet Proof II (though he wasn't run in AKC did Sire Hi Proof Rum Runner) and then adding Pacolet Cheyenne Sam Scipio Spinks Perrys Rustic Prince Bazookas Brandy , Wan Kan Jill, Ferdinand of Leeway, Pacolet Sam KAy Cee Bandit Ban Dee ..it would be a shame to say if that dog was run in NSTRA and titled in NSTRA to call it a NSTRA dog

[kensfishing]

There is still no comparison from NSTRA to Field Trials. I've run them both. The one is scored by a person who looks at a dog differently and scores what he likes. If he likes a high tail that dog scores higher. In AKC you can still walk a trial. The rules state that a foot handler gets priority on the ground. Alot of horse people don't like it but it's in the rules. I've watched many people walk with horses.They also have walking trials. I judge a dog on it's run, application to the cover, not just running a straight line. How they handle birds, intensity on point. Most of the time the dogs or the handlers make the difference on who wins. They all aren't retreiving stakes either. It's a controlled shoot if they shoot at all. There are plenty of dogs that compete in AKC that would excel in NSTRA and very few NSTRA dogs can compete in AKC. Just my two cents.

That is how a dog is also scored in NSTRA the dogs is judged by Point retrieve ground cover and Obedience one format the judge writes a score the other the judge puts down on his notes which dog had the best run at the end of the day. Showed t the front when the handler calls out to them or be found on point
A dog that is constantly coming up from behind isn't going to score a good obedience in NSTRA in AKC/AF the dog isn't going to be looked at

and slistoe so you are saying that a dog that COMES from lines like let say the 8 gen pedigree has lines from Bullet Proof II (though he wasn't run in AKC did Sire Hi Proof Rum Runner) and then adding Pacolet Cheyenne Sam Scipio Spinks Perrys Rustic Prince Bazookas Brandy , Wan Kan Jill, Ferdinand of Leeway, Pacolet Sam KAy Cee Bandit Ban Dee ..it would be a shame to say if that dog was run in NSTRA and titled in NSTRA to call it a NSTRA dog

Kind of hard for a dog to come from behind in a 40 acre field. I've watched dogs from behind go the the front after they've had bird work and win, big time. Usually there's only one bird shot in AKC if it's a retreiving stake. Not all AKC or AF trials are retreiving trials.

[kninebirddog]

There is still no comparison from NSTRA to Field Trials. I've run them both. The one is scored by a person who looks at a dog differently and scores what he likes. If he likes a high tail that dog scores higher. In AKC you can still walk a trial. The rules state that a foot handler gets priority on the ground. Alot of horse people don't like it but it's in the rules. I've watched many people walk with horses.They also have walking trials. I judge a dog on it's run, application to the cover, not just running a straight line. How they handle birds, intensity on point. Most of the time the dogs or the handlers make the difference on who wins. They all aren't retreiving stakes either. It's a controlled shoot if they shoot at all. There are plenty of dogs that compete in AKC that would excel in NSTRA and very few NSTRA dogs can compete in AKC. Just my two cents.

That is how a dog is also scored in NSTRA the dogs is judged by Point retrieve ground cover and Obedience one format the judge writes a score the other the judge puts down on his notes which dog had the best run at the end of the day. Showed t the front when the handler calls out to them or be found on point
A dog that is constantly coming up from behind isn't going to score a good obedience in NSTRA in AKC/AF the dog isn't going to be looked at

and slistoe so you are saying that a dog that COMES from lines like let say the 8 gen pedigree has lines from Bullet Proof II (though he wasn't run in AKC did Sire Hi Proof Rum Runner) and then adding Pacolet Cheyenne Sam Scipio Spinks Perrys Rustic Prince Bazookas Brandy , Wan Kan Jill, Ferdinand of Leeway, Pacolet Sam KAy Cee Bandit Ban Dee ..it would be a shame to say if that dog was run in NSTRA and titled in NSTRA to call it a NSTRA dog

Kind of hard for a dog to come from behind in a 40 acre field. I've watched dogs from behind go the the front after they've had bird work and win, big time. Usually there's only one bird shot in AKC if it's a retreiving stake. Not all AKC or AF trials are retreiving trials.

Ken no actually it is really easy for a dog to constantly circle around and head off to the side and come up from behind the handler at a NSTRA trial same way I see it happen at the AKC trials.
and I think pretty much everyone understands that AKC unless one goes to a Retrieve stake the dog has to stand there watch the bird fly off and a sound of a blank gun then go on forward.


So when did you run NSTRA? I don't recall ever seeing you at a NSTRA trial Seen you at a couple of the AZOD events which were kinda based off the AZ Pointing dog trials and NSTRA Andy put together. I remember when poor Andy just got his dog back from a pro trainer and tried to run an Amateur NSTRA trial I put together and got DQ'd in less the 10 minutes from his dog ripping birds out and interfering with the bracemate. I felt so bad for him

Again the OP was asking about similarities and there are some ..There are differences also but then that is what makes this country so great We HAVE CHOICES of WHAT and HOW we want to play with our dogs.
What fun would cards be if we were mandated we could only play 1 game and you were condemned for playing any other version of the game..not everyone wants to play poker not every one wants to play spades hearts gin gin rummy cribbage...all the games have something were rules may over lap they are all different they are all played with cards sitting in chairs on a table some people will only allow themselves to enjoy one game some people just like the camaraderie and will play different games because they would rather enjoy the diversities in life then look down the nose at stuff because if it isn't something they understand or like it is beneath them.

It comes down to PERSONAL preference NSTRA I found something I could play more at and do less traveling if I just want to maybe play once a month or other month at ..or I can hit the road and hit a trial just about ever weekend of the year. If I have a dog that is running hot and winning and winning and winning just like any other trialer they are gonna go with it and trial that dog while it is on a streak...Lastest dog in the Brittany World having such and Awesome Streak is Ru-Jems Touch of Bourbon aka Chug I know his owner keeps talking about taking a break..and I see Chug forcing him to stay on the road because he is the dog to beat It is awesome to see dogs on such streaks where they become a household names even neater when one can keep an open mind and understand that a great dog is a great dog.

So on this note unless the OP has another question I hope they they gt their answer and also understand Do what floats your boat and don't worry about what other people think there has to be something to NSTRA when our National trials can fill up with 192 dogs coming from all over.....just play by the rules and Have fun at what ever YOU choose to do IT'S ALL GOOD

heck those money tournaments are beginning to look good a buddy of mine just won 2 grand but unfortunately I know I would be the weak link I can't move that fast anymore with my knees and my shooting well let's just say could be better

Go Friends Go

[ezzy333]

is another example where a NSTRA dog can run AKC trials

Ezzy, both dogs cited are a product of the best breeding production that the AKC trial system has to offer. Double and triple up on Hall of Fame producers. They can in no way be characterized as NSTRA dogs simply because the owners chose to start their field careers in that venue.

Gee think you are right. I would characterize both as birddogs that were run in two different formats and excelled at both. Probably many others could do the same thing if given the oppotunity. It just not that hard for a dog to adjust if given the chance to learn but do to limited time for most people they do not have the time or where with all to compete in all of the different games we have.

Ezzy

[kensfishing]

1. I've attended several and joined once. Didn't care for the scoring venue. Too many people don't know what intense really is. 2. Most of the courses in a 40arcefield there are not that many objectives. 3. Our dog on a back had better be broke. There's no collaring a dog when a bird is flushed and blanked. Both dogs have to stand unless marking the flight of the bird. Asfar as the pro, yes I remember him well, he really messed up several of my dogs. One which other pros didn't want to take him and try and fix the problem. In factI finished what he started. FC/AFC Levy's City Slicken Clown. I also remember the AZOD trials. If my memory serves me I won almost all of them I came to with Tracker, Wilma and Duke. If fact Tracker is still going strong at 11 years of age . Like I said there's a world of difference between an AKC, AF field trial and NASTRA. There are no points allotted {sp} to a dog. It's judge two dogs and keep relaceing them as you go along. Sometimes there's no winner. It's happened way too many times, but that running dogs. On another note I watched dogs come from the rear and win, they usually have bird work and get behind another dog, but came to the front and won.

[PntrRookie]

...Looking for Factual Positive, or negative answers please...I wanted to ask how NSTRA Trials compare to any other Trial out there? What do you like better? What dont you like? How do you feel about how they're run?

NSTRA was a great format for me to get my trial "feet wet". If you have a steady to flush pointing dog that handles nicely and retrieves you will have a BLAST. I looked to move on after attending an AF trial. I liked the format of running on a course...not necessarily a field like NSTRA and I appreciated the broke dog work. Some things I miss about NSTRA is the shooting of birds retrieving. I also miss (sometimes) the scoring. Even though it can be kinda iffy, if you find more birds, usually you win. On the flip side, I do like the fact that the AF places dogs on the best style, run, application, etc. NOT necessarily the number of birds. Judging an AF trial can come down to splitting hairs!

In NSTRA you can become a CH (NOT recognized on a pedigree by AKC or AF) by accumulating a certain number of points due to your wins and placements. In AF you must win a Champion sanctioned trial to claim the "CH" title...not as easy as NSTRA.

[slistoe]

and slistoe so you are saying that a dog that COMES from lines like let say the 8 gen pedigree has lines from Bullet Proof II (though he wasn't run in AKC did Sire Hi Proof Rum Runner) and then adding Pacolet Cheyenne Sam Scipio Spinks Perrys Rustic Prince Bazookas Brandy , Wan Kan Jill, Ferdinand of Leeway, Pacolet Sam KAy Cee Bandit Ban Dee ..it would be a shame to say if that dog was run in NSTRA and titled in NSTRA to call it a NSTRA dog

Still trying to get that dog elected.
It would be a lie to attribute that dogs inherited talent to the NSTRA testing program.

[Greg Jennings]

Scott,

In my offical judgement, Arlette has answered the questions honestly and evenly while you are injecting argument that isn't there.

Please lighten up and stick to the OP's original question.

Greg J.

[ckirsch]

No doubt the OP found this thread to be very encouraging.

[slistoe]

Sorry Greg. I haven't hosted a NSTRA event. I have nothing to contribute in regards to the operation of a club to host the event as it compares to traditional trial formats.

[birddog1968]

Best thing Ive found about Nstra, is the people.

Some of the nicest folks you could want to spend a weekend around.......

[jasonw99]

i don't claim to be an expert in either venue

dogs that won in both. nolans last bullet
link of his accomplishments.
http://www.petitiononline.com/BFTHOF/petition.html

IMO dogs can do both but the differences between the formats it's not practical to do both at the same time.

if you use some logic posted you can't foot hunt your horseback dog. that's not true dogs figure out the difference of being on horse or being on foot

benefits of nstra it's fun it is imexpensive you don't need a horse etc etc.

there are more local trials. there is written judging guidelines and points.

disadvantages or advantage depends how you look at is the best dog doesn't always win. meaning if a dog that hunts mire productively and consistent doesn't equate to finding mire birds every trial. there is some luck in winning. the luck of the draw and the luck of the bird placements.
the regions are consistent in competitive levels. Michigan indiana ohio kentucky alabama are the most competitive in my opinion. and the winners of the national trials shows it

nstra places more weight on finding birds where horseback placed more on the run, hunting objectives where birds should be

alot of horseback people think nstra dogs are bootlickers when in fact the dogs that win alot are hard charging, run big dogs, with good style. the run has been taken out of the dog to allow for handling and the field size.
most dogs in nstra come from horseback lines.

all trials serve their purpose and to suggest one is better than the other is subjective

[Neil]

all trials serve their purpose and to suggest one is better than the other is subjective

I agree,

Neil

[brittfans]

to me nstra looks like something for the guy that hunts that wants to keep his dog in shape and trained all year long.With the lack of wild birds in Nebraska I'm looking for different venues to keep myself and my dogs interested all year long. I went and watched a few nstra event this fall and most of the dogs were pointers and setters and none of them were boot polishers. the fields didn't have allot of objectives but bird work and handling seemed to be the objective. the dogs had to hold point they all broke at the shot and had to retrive to hand .

[ultracarry]

As it was explained to me your dog gets points for one honor...75. If your dog does not honor and finds a bird wouldn't that be better as long as you don't interfere with the other dog?

[jasonw99]

first u have to realize after each brace the final scores are entered on a board. after all the braces have rAn for that field thr dog with the highest score wins.
so your question about backing.

say I had a run that was 3 finds and no back
somebody else In another brace runs has 3 finds and a back. as u can see the 3 finds and a back would have a higher total assuming they scored the same on bird work and retrieves.

nstra is not an elimination event meaning your dog runs my dog whoever finds more moves to the next round.

[kninebirddog]

As it was explained to me your dog gets points for one honor...75. If your dog does not honor and finds a bird wouldn't that be better as long as you don't interfere with the other dog?

yeah the point and retrieve would make for more points BUT to be declared a CH at regional and Nationals the dog has to prove it will back on their own before it can be declared a champion if a dog blinks a back or doesn't have a chance for a back they will do a call back for one chance after the trial is done and if that dog blinks that back then the title will go to the next dog in line provided it has proven or proves it will back.


so in the local level as long as a dog doesn't interfere you can get away with no backing but that day will come when it has show it will back some times the saying is" One more bird or a back" that can make the difference of a placement or not


I have seen trials where 1 place to 4th place was less then 20 pts between them all came down to better scores in the same amount of bird work retrieve and obedience ground cover and that Back

In response to Jasons post Correct the regular weekend trials it is a 30 minute brace and the person that had the best score has 1st place

But at Regionals and National Yes it is a series of 30 minute braces first round is the top 16 from each field of 32 dogs next round they draw those dog to run another 30 minute brace take the top 8 out of the 32 dogs running in each field from that they go on to the next day and then they divide those dogs into 3 field taking the top 2 from the different fields and from those 6 they run them for 30 inute braces that the top two scores those 2 dogs run an hour brace to be determined winner and runner up ...that last day those dogs better be in shape now there is an endurance format it is a beat your bracemate format where they start off with 2-4 fields of 32 dogs in each field depending on entries..and yes you beat your brace mate to advance to the next round but still last brace is a ne hour run off between the winner and runner up
and yes somewhere along the line that have to prove that they will back all regular braces are 30 minute braces

it is all about having fun with our dogs

[burke]

I havent run NSTRA since I moved to alaska six years agao, but I did run it for a few years. I do not remember any limits to the size of the field. I believe the rules only state a minimum of 25 acres. Many of our trials were close to maybe even more than 80 acres.
For me it was like a mini hunting season in the spring. I enjoyed it. I do agree that the dog who is broke to w/s/f is not necessarily the winner in NSTRA. It will get high obedience points but usually that is not enough to win.

I have only watched some of the other trials, never participated. One I watched was interesting to me to see the dog who ran "better" was declared the winner. The winning dog only had one bird contact, while some of the lower placed dogs had multiple contacts. It didnt make sense to me why they chose a winner that didnt find birds but ran well. There where plenty of birds available. There was no retrieves, they used blank pistols. So retrieving wasnt even a part of it.

In the end, dog games are all fun. We choose to participate in the ones we feel comfortable with.

[jasonw99]

I run nstra. but to answer your question why a dog that runs better wins

why does a dog that have a draw against a terrible dog win because he found more birds? measuring how many birds u find isn't always the best dog. if a really good dog ran a really good dog they could split and Lose to the first dog I mentioned.

in horseback it's more which dog should be more productive you could have a dog who runs really good but has a terrible nose.

it's up to u to decide which format suits your needs and desires

[snips]

As someone that has run both venues pretty heavily now, I will tell you there is nothing as fun as NSTRA to do with your dog, and it is still a positive to have a stylish dog that scores well. Dogs that win consistantly are the dogs that consistantly find birds, look good on them, and have a faultless retrieve....If you have a dog that is sloppy on birds or has a retrieving issue, you might win once because you found more birds...But it will not happen consistantly...There is nothing like the rush you have when you are going to flush your 5th or 6th bird whether the dog you are running against is good or not.(always better with a good dog tho) ..You have the chance anyone else does to draw a good or bad dog....I see alot of simularity in AKC in that it DOES matter who you are running with in whether it makes your dog look good or bad, or is it broke and will not mess my dog up, ect....So bracemates matter...No matter what you run in dealing with another dog in the picture....

[burke]

Brenda,
I agree NSTRA is an extremely fun event.
I also agree that it is good to have a dog with style and scores high on finds with consistency. In the region I ran NSTRA there were some darn good dogs, but you rarely saw them steady to wing and shot, and it was even more rare to find one steady to the fall. I believe it is due to the time restriction.
Do you see many in your region?
My Weimaraner was one of those and he placed third a few times. He didnt have the high gear that some of the other dogs did. After the first NSTRA season that we competed in, he figured out that I could not keep him steady in a trial because of the no training rules. Each summer after the spring NSTRA season we had to do some tune up work to get him back to steady. He was my first "trained" bird dog so neither of us were perfect, and we didnt start NSTRA until he was 6 or 7 years old. He was wonderful to hunt over though.
I started NSTRA with my Brittany a few years later and she was not steady to fall. She was generally quicker and she did well. She was one placement away from a Championship when I left for Alaska. I am certain she would have earned a championship, maybe multiple had I stayed. She too is a joy to hunt over and I think the "dog games" like NSTRA and AKC Hunt Tests helped me stay focused and have fun with the dogs year round. I had never intended to join the games, but I am glad I did.

[gunner121408]

I have two GSP and my two year old has shown somevstrong promise and I am looking into getting involved in NSTRA to broaden my horizons as well as the dogs. How are folks that compete in these events with a beginner as some folks get frustrated with newbies. I am certainly not trying to negatively affect anyone but sometimes you get treated like a outcast and we all have to start somewhere getting involved with something new.

Jack

[CowboyBirdDogs]

I'm in the same exact boat as gunner121408, response?

[snips]

I never worried about other people, and I always figured this in any competition...The more popular you are, the worse your dogs are..The more they dislike you, then is when you know you got a nice dog:) Just go try to learn, run your dog and then you will know if you need to work on anything. First NSTRA trial I ran in I did not even know the rules, but I liked it...I found out what I needed to win and I bred a dog that I wanted to solely run in NSTRA..She ended up in the HOF.

[CowboyBirdDogs]

I'm going to go and just watch my first one on March 12-13. I'm in the Lonestar Region, anybody have much to say about it? Good dogs, people etc?

[kninebirddog]

I never worried about other people, and I always figured this in any competition...The more popular you are, the worse your dogs are..The more they dislike you, then is when you know you got a nice dog:) Just go try to learn, run your dog and then you will know if you need to work on anything. First NSTRA trial I ran in I did not even know the rules, but I liked it...I found out what I needed to win and I bred a dog that I wanted to solely run in NSTRA..She ended up in the HOF.

Just go have fun...If I worried about what some narrow minded people thought I wouldn't have gotten to do as much as I have done over the last 10 plus years..I have had people tell me when I first started I would never gt any where in NSTRA running brittanys that I had to get a pointer to be competitive :roll: plus the other BS little games which some people feel the need to sully their regions with I just as Mo says BLINK'EM

Besides the NSTRA Dog of the year trial held in Amo Indiana every Oct for as long as I have been going every year has had 192 dogs entered which all had to qualify every year to run at their Local Yearly State regional trial which the dogs had to qualify to run in by by placing in a regular weekend trial or already being a NSTRA Champion to even enter their State Regional then by how they place in State regional is where they will stand on the list to go..So if Your are in the top placements you are guaranteed a spot at DOY or people can enter that have run in their State Regional's and as spots are not filled then the others will have a chance to go so these dogs and people come from all over the country plus they have a pretty good list of Paid Bye dogs in case a dog that is qualified ahead of them has to pull out for any reason ...

So there are a bunch of people from all over who enjoy having fun with their dogs ..some just like to play at the local levels and some like to dibble a bit at the national trials and some get extremely serious ...


by playing in NSTRA and going to the NSTRA DOY is where I got to meet Brenda and Rick and becomes friend with them and others from around the state.