Dual Sanctioned question

[dan v]

I know that many Brit FT's are dual sanctioned, as are some GSP FT.

The question I have is about the dual registered Championships.

Say for the Gordon Setter breed. To be qualified for our AKC Ch. we need to have a placement in a major, whether AA/OGD/AGD. If not a major then a win in a minor. But how do the clubs handle it when the dog that wins their breed AKC Ch. but didn't have a win certificate from a Am. Fld event?

[Dave Quindt]

Dan,

I might not completely understand your question, so let me start with this:

We'll use the Brits as they are more straightforward than the current GSP arraignment

The Brit folks dual sanction their national championship; the American Brittany Club is both an AKC and AF club. They hold one national field trial, where the championships stakes are each dual registered with the AKC and AF (amateur stakes AFTCA as well).

Here are the qualifications for the Brittany National Open All Age championship stake:

1. Open to any Brittany six (six) months of age or over which in any preceding year, placed first in the National
Open All Age Championship for Brittanys or
2. which in the preceding year placed second, third or fourth in the National Open All Age Championship for
Brittanys, or
3. which during the period from the previous years close of entries to the current year’s closing of entries has
two placements in an Open or Open Limited All Age Stake in which at least 13 dogs started in an AKC
licensed trial held by a Brittany Club, one of which must be a lst place, or
4. has two placements, one of which is a second in an Open All Age or Open Limited All Age Stake in which at
least 40 or more dogs started in an AKC Licensed trial held by a Brittany Club and has an additional Open or
Open Limited All Age placement in which 13 or more dogs started in an AKC Licensed trial held by a
Brittany Club, or
5. has placed in an Open All Age or Open Limited All Age Stake of one hour or more in an AKC Licensed trial
held by a Brittany Club in which the following dogs started: lst place with 13 starters, 2nd place with 15
starters, 3rd place with 17 starters, or 4th place with 20 starters.

Here's what you're probably missing; since the Brit folks dual register their weekend AKC trials as well and they mandate that you qualify via a placement at a Brittany trial, by placing at those AKC weekend trials you pick up an AF placement as well, which qualifies the dog for the AF "side" of the national championship.

The GSP/AF National Championship is a separate event from the GSP/AKC National Championship;

I think I know what you are getting at; I'd call the AF and talk to them about it. Whether or not you want your amateur stakes to be sanctioned via the AFTCA will play into this as well; that brings another level of complexity. The Brit trials are AFTCA sanctioned; the GSP trials are not. A Brittany who wins a broke dog amateur stake at a weekend trial can go run any AF championship; a GSP cannot. AFTCA won't sanction a retrieving event.

Let me know if this answers your question.

FWIW,
Dave

[lvrgsp]

And that my friends is why I call him the GURU............
Very well expained Dave..............

[Elroy's Bandit]

Ditto That! Very thorough explanation Dave!
We're not worthy
Bill L.

[dan v]

Dave,

I quite sure you know the direction I'm heading...you being the guru of such matters ...but for those that found my post cryptic.

I'm wondering about the possibility of dual registering the GSCA NFT. The problem arises when GSCA doesn't currently have a string of Am. Fld sanctioned events. We haven't built, and probably never will, the juggernaut of the Brit's or GSP's. Brit's really run in Brit only competition, because they have the numbers, and plenty of their FT's are dual sanctioned. GSP's basically are the bulk of the entry at any other APB FT, and seem to be dual sanctioning more and more.

Doesn't Bernie require a dog to have a win cert in order to be eligible for the Ch. sanctioned by the Field?

I'll use my dog as an example. He is qualified for our NFT, finished FC.....yet he doesn't have a placement in a Shooting dog stake, nor a derby first in a Am. Fld derby. So if the GSCA Ch. was indeed dual sanctioned, he would meet the requirement for entry as to the AKC side, but not the Am. Fld side. Correct? How is this seen by American Field? Would the dog be the GSCA National Champ, but not the Am. Fld. Ch?

I do know at the last Am. Fld Gordon Ch. (circa 2007 at Grove Spring) Bernie waved the win certificate requirement....as he knew the predicament.

In the past I've approached the GSCA Standing National Field Committee about addressing the Gordon that have a win cert through Am. Fld, but don't have the required AKC placement. A few said, "if they want to come, they know what they have to do."

[Wagonmaster]

Doesn't Bernie require a dog to have a win cert in order to be eligible for the Ch. sanctioned by the Field?

The Field itself does not have such a rule. The only Rules promulgated by the American Field are the Minimum Requirements, which say nothing about qualifying for anything. Host clubs and other organizations such as the NGSPA or AFTCA can publish qualifications for a particular event. These are usually published in the advertisment for the event, or in some cases are in the organization's Rules. So there would be nothing to prevent the GSCA from making a "win" in an AKC event, a qualification for running in an AF Championship, or prevent it from having no qualification requirement at all to be able to win the AF "side" of the event.

[SFK]

John - speaking on NGSPA championship qualifications. What are they? I never can seem to get a straight answer. Or does it depend on the CH?

[Neil]

John is right and said it very well.

That is for FDSB/American Field in which the minimum requirements boil down to run an ad.

For AFTCA, if you elect to gain their sanctions, there are some additional qualifications beyond belonging to AFTCA, but Linda and her successor will gladly explain them.

There are a number of real benefits to belonging to AFTCA if you run any amateur trials at all, or have amateurs compete in your open stakes.

Neil

[dan v]

Thanks John.

I'll approach our NFT Committee about this.

[Wagonmaster]

John - speaking on NGSPA championship qualifications. What are they? I never can seem to get a straight answer. Or does it depend on the CH?

It depends on the Championship. One rule applies to the Regionals and Species, different rules to the NGSPA Nationals. For the Regionals and Species look at this thread - http://www.gundogforum.com/forum/viewto ... ilit=ngspa

For the Nationals (except the All Age, which I should know but don't remember) look at this thread - http://www.gundogforum.com/forum/viewto ... ilit=ngspa

These Rules are all in the NGSPA rule book, except the AA which was changed by the Board last year, so its not in the book, which was published a few years ago.

[Wagonmaster]

PS

Dan, Here is one of the ways to qualify for the NGSPA Nationals: "the dog must participate in at least one NGSPA hour championship in the preceding year PLUS either (1) win a first place in one broke dog NGSPA sanctioned trial or (b) be an AKC field champion (AFC or FC) or record. "

So in this instance, a dog could qualify for an NGSPA (AF) Chamionship by earning an AKC FC and then just running in an NGSPA hour championship in the preceding year. Would not have to have an AF win at all.

[dan v]

John,

I think I just had a moment of clarity

I guess one could look at the scenario for the GSCA NFT two ways. There has been in the past, a Am. Fld Ch. for Gordons...hasn't been held for a while though.

So could a club, GSCA in this instance, publish the GSCA NFT in the Field....but not as a Ch? Just a hour SD stake? I believe there is an entity that has the "rights" to the Am. Fld Ch. So GSCA would need their blessing in order to have the Am. Fld Ch.?

Or?

I guess I'm really just looking for guidance/input before the GSCA SNFTC meeting....if they decide to pursue it, then I'll have a better frame of reference when speaking with Bernie.

Thanks!

[Wagonmaster]

I don't know why they would not take an ad for a GSCA NFT. They might allow it to be a plain vanilla SD stake also, you will have to ask the Field on that one. I don't think there is an AF organization for Gordon's, but I don't know how the breed works well enough to be sure on that one. You would really need to just call the Field and ask what they would be willing to do. But what would be the point of holding a GS only Shooting Dog stake that is neither a Championship, nor a National Championship as far as the Field is concerned. What would a win possibly mean?

[dan v]

John,

There is a Am. Fld GS club. Roger Casey (Intraset) and Dr. William Wright (Milomix) are/were the principles.

You have to understand, I'm talking about the Gordon Setter Club of America, this is a tad out of the wheelhouse.

In a perfect world, we'd dual sanction the event, AKC GS NFC and Am. Fld breed specific Ch. But maybe starting out it could be the GSCA NFC and a 1 hour SD stake. I suspect we will still have the issue of the FDSB only dog's AKC qualification...or lack there of. See, we gots rules and such :roll:

Our numbers for this year look pretty bleak....I don't have the offical count yet, but my intel is 20 for the Open Ch. & 20 for the Am. Ch. No puppies and no derbies. We're at Cloverdale Farms in Virginia this year. So going forward we need to make it more attract for people to attend. Next two years we're going to Bechtel after the GSP.

[Wagonmaster]

The smartest thing the GSPCA did, in fact probably the only intelligent thing it has done in its existence, was to put the Nationals in one place, middle of the country. It used to move around, and some years the attendance was miserable. They have been trying to get a walking National Am. off the ground for a few years, and they have been moving it all around the country. It is failing, and now they are going to try putting it in just one place. Don't know that will save it, but it is a lot smarter than moving the event around. The guys who have been going to that event for decades, could have told them that, in fact tried, but of course they were old guys not worth listening too. Moving a National around makes it a one time Regional for the area it is in, and that is about it. Put it on the East Coast, all the East Coast people come that year, but the people from CA don't want to drive a rig that far. Put it in CA and all the West Coast people come, but not the East Cost. Put it in the middle, same place every year, and everyone comes.

[DGFavor]

Put it in the middle, same place every year, and everyone comes.

No, pretty sure they don't.