NGSPA Chukar Championship 2010

[Crestonegsp]

First let me begin by asking that you all not give me crap about the locale of this trial! I'm just the messenger. Yes, it is held in Arizona. However these are beautiful high mountains and the courses are fantastic!

This years NGSPA Chukar Championship will begin on August 21, 2010 and will conclude on August 26, 2010. This event is then followed by the Desert GSPC Field trial which begins with the Open All Age on August 27. The grounds are at Pole Knoll, near Sunrise Lake in Springerville/Eager Arizona.

We're really excited this year because for the first time, this event will not only be AF but will also be sanctioned by the AKC. This means that winning dogs will also win AKC points and gives them the opportunity to not only qualify for the NGSPA Nationals in Booneville but also the GSPCA Nationals in Eureka.

The stake order will be:
OSD, OAA, ASD and if time permits a Derby Classic.

This is a really outstanding event and I urge you to come on out and find out just how wonderfully cool the White Mtns of AZ can be ...

Doris J. Schoenfelder
Secretary, Chukar Assoc.

[Hotpepper]

That is just tremendous to go to the combination of AF and AKC. You guys are sure innovative and doing new things. You are to be highly commended.

Jerry

[Jager]

I have recently heard that all hour AF championships are now dual sanctioned with AKC. Is this true or did I misunderstand?

[Crestonegsp]

In order for a trial to be dual sanctioned, in addition to the AF paperwork, a club must apply thru the AKC and pay appropriate fees. So unless a club specifically applies, they are not automatically dual sanctioned just because its an hour championship.

[DGFavor]

First let me begin by asking that you all not give me crap about the locale of this trial! I'm just the messenger.

Awesome!! Kinda throws off my yearly smart aleck posting rhythms but we'll let it go!! Have a great trial!!

[ymepointer]

I believe the dogs will have to be dual registered to receive credit in both venues also...Is that right?

[myerstenn]

How do the derbys qualify??????????????

[Crestonegsp]

well, the derbys don't "qualify" .....for the Futurity(s) (GSPCA and NGSPA) the pups are nominated by their breeders.

[myerstenn]

Do they qualify for derby points for f.c.?????

[Crestonegsp]

yes, AKC points would be awarded to winners.

[myerstenn]

Thats pretty nifty considering the FDSB dosn't use the same critera for derby ages as the AKC. How is that going to be handled??

[Dave Quindt]

Thats pretty nifty considering the FDSB dosn't use the same critera for derby ages as the AKC. How is that going to be handled??

Not an issue since the standing agreement between the AKC and AF is that when a trial is dual registered, AKC rules take precedence.

The Brittany folks dual register hundreds of trials every year with the AKC and AF (and AFTCA); from local weekend trials to wild bird championships to their national championship. The Field keeps taking their money and the FDSB keeps recording the placements.

Right or wrong, good or bad, the Field needs the AKC far more than the AKC needs the Field. A healthy amount of the Field's revenue comes from trial fees and advertisement revenues generated from AKC club stakes dual registered with the Field.

JMO,
Dave

[SFK]

From what I understand it is true that AKC rules take precidence but if your dog wins the derby and it is outside of the AF derby age, the win will count for AKC but not for AF.

Maybe I am wrong...

[myerstenn]

It would more than likely be the other way around as you can run a derby past 24 months in FDSB depending on time of birth . The trial in question is a NGSPA sactioned event not an AKC event. The issue of duel sanctioning, at least as I understand it has not totally been worked out, that is the reason for the question. If my derby is 28 month old and I place first in the derby he/she is technically over age for an AKC derby placement. There is no question about the fdsb placement it will stand, what would the status of my AKC placement be? You akc folks are only looking at this from the AKC side of the house. Your views may or may not be shared by the NGSPA folks in the same light.

[SFK]

From AF website:

Derby Stakes: From July 1 to December 31 of each year for dogs whelped on or after January 1 of the year preceding, and from January 1 to June 30 of each year for dogs whelped on or after January 1 of two years preceding.

So the Chukar starts on Aug 27, 2010. Lets say I have a pup born Nov 1, 2008. The pup is less than 24 months old so it is ok by AKC. Rule above states for Derby stakes running July 1 to December 31 all dogs competing must be welped after January 1 of the preceding year. The preceding year would be 2009 so my dog would not be elgible by AF derby standards.

We run a dual sanctioned weekend trial at the GSPC of Ohio. Last fall we called Bernie to confirm the above senerio and he said don't worry about not allowing dogs born in 2007 (trial run in Sept of 2009) but if a dog born in 2009 placed the field would mark it as withheld, void, or something similar. In short, he said accept dogs by the AKC standard and the Field would worry about voiding placements.

[Neil]

From AF website:


So the Chukar starts on Aug 27, 2010. Lets say I have a pup born Nov 1, 2008. The pup is less than 24 months old so it is ok by AKC. Rule above states for Derby stakes running July 1 to December 31 all dogs competing must be welped after January 1 of the preceding year. The preceding year would be 2009 so my dog would not be elgible by AF derby standards.

.

I have never seen a field trial pointer or setter whelped later than Oct., most are whelped in January, much like race horses.

But the Brittany Futurity has the same problem as most breeders are honest and use the correct whelping date, and AF has always recognized the wins. I think they will continue to look the other way unless there is a complaint. As said it is in their best interest.

Actually what Bernie said to me is he believes the most stringent rule between AKC - AF should be followed, not that AKC takes precedent. But since AKC is almost always more stringent (except in the case of Amateurs running dogs not wholly owned by them) than AF/AFTCA, it is the same thing said another way.

Neil

[northern cajun]

Most horses are not foaled in January, I would bet that month has probably the lowest foaling rates of the breeding months except June. You see a horse born in December is at a severe disadvantage all race horses no matter the month they are born have a January 1st birthday so you want to foal as close to the new year as possible without being born in December.

[postoakshorthairs]

Most horses are not foaled in January, I would bet that month has probably the lowest foaling rates of the breeding months except June. You see a horse born in December is at a severe disadvantage all race horses no matter the month they are born have a January 1st birthday so you want to foal as close to the new year as possible without being born in December.

You are joking right?

[Crestonegsp]

As for the Derby, the running standard will be AF rules. The qualification of the dogs to run in either AF or AKC is up to the owner. It is kind of a buyer beware thing, enter knowing what you are qualified for and what you will get out of it. If you enter a dog that is 26 months old and qualified under AF but not AKC and win you will forfeit the AKC placement. If the dog is under 24 months and only qualified for AKC it will only receive AKC placement or points.

[Crestonegsp]

The location of the Chukar Championship has moved over the mountain to the trial location off FR409, Pool Knoll. The forest service has went into the Pole Knoll area and opened logging. The logging would not have been an issue since the course ran away from the logging but the added traffic of logging trucks would have been.

[northern cajun]

Most horses are not foaled in January, I would bet that month has probably the lowest foaling rates of the breeding months except June. You see a horse born in December is at a severe disadvantage all race horses no matter the month they are born have a January 1st birthday so you want to foal as close to the new year as possible without being born in December.

You are joking right?

No I am not joking.

[tn red]

Most horses are not foaled in January, I would bet that month has probably the lowest foaling rates of the breeding months except June. You see a horse born in December is at a severe disadvantage all race horses no matter the month they are born have a January 1st birthday so you want to foal as close to the new year as possible without being born in December.

You are joking right?

No I am not joking.

All throughbreds use Jan 1 as the birth date reguardless of the actual birthday so all horses run as 2 yr olds reguardless.All walking horses born after Oct 1 are shown against the following years colts,they are called hold overs

[Wagonmaster]

Most of the discussion in this thread about the new Dual Sanctioned Trial is not correct. I am not the NGSPA Board spokesman, that would be Tom Davis, our new president, but some basic incorrect assumptions need to be changed here.

First, the NGSPA Chukar Championship, and and the Region 8 and Hungarian Partridge Championship, are going to be dual sanctioned. There may be others also, but these are the ones that have been announced so far. This dual sanctioning process is the result of disussions between AKC event staff and members of the NGSPA Board. Keith Richardson and Terry Chandler have been spearheading this for the NGSPA. Currently, the program is an experimental one for a couple of years, while the organizations work out any issues. It is incorrect that AKC rules will predominate. It is also incorrect that these trials will be handled like any other type of American Field dual sanctioned trial, such as those the Brittany clubs hold. I reiterate, right now this is a program being worked out between the NGSPA, with the cooperation of the AF, and the AKC.

Generally speaking, these are going to be NGSPA Championships run primarily under NGSPA rules and culture. However, there are far fewer differences between the field trial rules of the two organizations than most people appreciate. There is flexibility on both sides of the discussions. The NGSPA rules will predominate, but both organizations are working with each other to find ways to accomodate any differences.

The one issue that has not been resolved is derby stakes. The age calculation for derby is different between the two organizations. So if the club holding the trial has a derby stake, it is going to be up to the host club to decide whether it wants to run the derby under AKC rules or AF rules.

Over the years there have been discussions on this site and among field trialers about why the GSP breed doesn't have dual sanctioned Championships. This is an effort to make that happen, and is being participated in by both AKC and NGSPA representatives. My personal feeling about it is that it is a great idea whose time has come, and that trialers who choose to participate in these events should do everything they can to make sure the program works out.

If anyone has further questions, I suggest they contact Keith, whose email is on the http://www.ngspa.org website, or Tom Davis, whose contact information is also on the website.

[The Zephyr]

John,

It seems the Prairie Chicken Championship will also be dual sanctioned. Although not listed in the latest Chronicle, this event sponsored by the Ringneck GSPC sure has the apperance of such:

http://www.akc.org/events/search/index_ ... ldr_event=

John L.

[Wagonmaster]

Doesn't surprise me and not unexpected that the publication of the dual sanctioned events is still evolving. This was just approved at the Board Meeting in June, so would expect the organizations with fall championships to give it a try. How's that? A dual sanctioned GSP wild bird trial.

Everything changes. This will be a good change if it works out. Not more hour Champions not qualified for Eureka, among other things.

[Hotpepper]

That has been long in accomplishing, congratulations to the folks that are working on it.

Great post John

Jerry

[Neil]

It is also incorrect that these trials will be handled like any other type of American Field dual sanctioned trial, such as those the Brittany clubs hold. I reiterate, right now this is a program being worked out between the NGSPA, with the cooperation of the AF, and the AKC.

.

In what ways will it differ?

I thought the way we were doing it worked, but perhaps we can learn from you all.

Neil

[Wagonmaster]

Every breed has its own culture and there are differences between them. I don't want to be interpreted as saying that what the Brittanys do is wrong. On the contrary, the Brittany breed has a system that works really well. On top of that, I don't know enough about the Brittany hour stakes to pontificate about them. My comment was really referring back to Dave Quindt's comment that the AKC rules predominate in the dual sanctioned stakes. It is my understanding that is the case in the Brittany dual sanctioned stakes.

Speaking from my own personal point of view, I really enjoy the AF style hour championships. My own hope is that is the direction these dual sanctioned stakes will go.

[Wagonmaster]

That has been long in accomplishing, congratulations to the folks that are working on it.

Great post John

Just to be clear, while I really appreciate Jerry's comment, the work to make these stakes a reality is being done by the whole NGSPA Board, AKC event staff, and I think it is fair to say the Keith Richardson in particular deserves the credit for pushing this ball up the hill. Terry Chandler also. I am just one of the messengers.

[Dave Quindt]

My comment was really referring back to Dave Quindt's comment that the AKC rules predominate in the dual sanctioned stakes. It is my understanding that is the case in the Brittany dual sanctioned stakes.

Well John, I'll tell you what I know.......

About 5 years ago I had a long conversation with an AKC field rep about dual-sanctioned trials, how they came about and how they work, while sitting in the club house at Branched Oaks. I was told that the original agreement between the AKC and AF was that if any rule was in conflict, that the AKC rules would take precedence. "Precedence" was the exact term told to me, and that's the exact term I have always used. I had another conversation with another AKC rep a few years later and told the same thing.

Now, the original AKC rep might not have known what he was talking about, but I'm guessing he did, and I'm guessing you'd agree with me.

As someone whose been championing this for years, I'm thrilled to see this finally taking place.

[BigShooter]

Dave,

Do I understand correctly that the prior conversations you were involved with in your opinion overrule terms tentatively agreed to by the parties of the current discussions and the currently envisioned experimental program or are you simply citing a source of prior information?

[dan v]

Hey Mark...maybe throw a comma in once and a while

[Wagonmaster]

Hi Dave. I am sorry if my prior post sounded like a "Dave is wrong" post. That was not what I meant to do. I am sure you heard what you heard and know what you know because I heard the same things. However, times change. You know more than most that if one compares the NGSPA written rules with the AKC written rules, there are alot more similarities than differences. The real difference is culture and how things operate in practice. I am certainly not the spokesman for the NGSPA Board. But I think it would be fair to say that there was very strong opposition in the NGSPA to dual sanctioned GSP hour championships that would be dominated by the AKC approach, if for no other reason than that with the sole exception of the GSPCA NC, all of the GSP hour championships have been developed and operated by the NGSPA for longer than you and I have been in the game. That opposition would have continued had there not been flexibility on both sides.

It is an experiment whose time has come. So I think we all need to let it proceed and give it our support. If the result of the experiment is alot of arguments and protests, and the whole experience is miserable for the people who are moving it forward, then I have no doubt that it will be shut off in less time than it takes to say "dual sanctioned."

[dan v]

Jon,

What are the differences in the "approach" between NGSPA and GSPCA FT's?

I haven't been to enough Am. Fld events to know.

Dan

[BigShooter]

Hey Mark...maybe throw a comma in once and a while

How about a period & a new sentence once in a while? I could just shorten it up and say, huh?

Gone to the dogs ... run on, run big, run off ...

Hey Dan,

"Judge not, lest ye also be judged"

[dan v]

Sorry Mark....it read a lot like lawyer speak. Ain't well versed in that.

[BigShooter]

Dan,

No foul. We were both just havin' a little fun.

It was a "run on" sentence. Between me & those young, big runnin' dogs of mine one of us usually is "running on, running big or running off".

I meant no disrespect to Quindt either & was just trying to understand where he was coming from & what he was trying to say. Quindt communicates well & is concise most of the time. In response I was just trying to be clear about what I was asking without it sounding like some kind of a snide remark. I can't take the post back so if Dave misunderstood & took offense I hope he'll just let me slide this time.

The quote about judging was a pun tied to judging dogs.

I for one hope this little experiment works out.

[dan v]

Dan,

No foul. We were both just havin' a little fun.

It was a "run on" sentence. Between me & those young, big runnin' dogs of mine one of us usually is "running on, running big or running off".

I meant no disrespect to Quindt either & was just trying to understand where he was coming from & what he was trying to say. Quindt communicates well & is concise most of the time. In response I was just trying to be clear about what I was asking without it sounding like some kind of a snide remark. I can't take the post back so if Dave misunderstood & took offense I hope he'll just let me slide this time.

The quote about judging was a pun tied to judging dogs.

I for one hope this little experiment works out.

No harm here.

Anyway, I'd like to think that GSCA could work that into their AKC Ch. as well. But we have forces that aren't quite open to it. We just went to 60 minutes, and that alone caused, and is causing, plenty of grief.

[Tejas]

John,

What is your understanding as to how entries will be handled? Will it be the AF culture where names are put into a container and then drawn or the AKC culture where all entries must be submitted before a "closing date"?

[Crestonegsp]

The drawing for the Chukar Championship will be done under AF rules. For the AKC app and premium, the close date and draw date were listed for when the drawing for the OSD (first stake of the event) would take place. Location of drawing is listed as the trial grounds.

As secretary of the Chukar Championship, I was instructed that this trial would be run under AF rules. I did receive clarification on the Derby, which I believe John already stated, would NOT be dual sanctioned, the club will decide on AKC or AF.

Since we're the first to give this Dual Sanctioned trial a try, I plan to approach it with an open mind, open heart and a whole lot of prayers for a smooth event! In the meantime, I need to get psyched up for the 26 hour drive from Kentucky to the White Mtns. of AZ!

Doris J. Schoenfelder
Secretary, Chukar Championship

[DGFavor]

I need to get psyched up for the 26 hour drive from Kentucky to the White Mtns. of AZ!

Well, sheesh, if you are driving that far you shoulda come to the northwest and put on a real chukar championship!! Yesss! tsssssss!! Got my yearly dig in at the last minute!!

Have a good trial!

[mrcreole]

Brace sheets out yet????

[Crestonegsp]

The drawing for the Open Shooting Dog is on Friday the 20th. IF I can get internet up there, I will post.

-Doris

[Wagonmaster]

What is your understanding as to how entries will be handled? Will it be the AF culture where names are put into a container and then drawn or the AKC culture where all entries must be submitted before a "closing date"?

As I understand it, drawings will be held just the way Dan said. Although it is traditional for the AKC entries to close and draw several days before the trial, it is not required. It is up to the club to decide when entries close and when the drawing is held. So I would expect the clubs will follow the AF/NGSPA style of drawing the night before the event, with the entries closing just before the drawing. Probably they will publish it that way in the premium.

This is not a hard and fast AF/NGSPA rule by the way. There are some events where the entries close earlier than the night of the drawing, the NGSPA Nationals being an example, but there are others.

[Crl]

I have been reading this string. Quite entertaining. Sounds like a good deal no matter how it finally shakes out. My dogs are dual registered and I run in both NGSPA and AKC and when ever two groups can work together then HOORAY. Let's have fun this fall and run some dogs.

I think that the Richardsons, John and the others who have been working on getting this worked out deserve a big Atta-boy.
crl

[Crestonegsp]

The OSD starts today with 22 dogs in the draw. We will run 6 braces today and 5 tomorrow. Hope the weather holds and we don't get shut down by afternoon thunder storms.

[Fieldmaster]

Do you have a running order?

Robert

[Crestonegsp]

We ran 6 braces on Saturday and have 5 today, Sunday. The weather looked like it was going to get bad but was it skipped by.

Here is the running order-
1- Luke/ Todd Yamaoto Jack/Tim Baranski - Luke had one find but had a tough time getting going. Jack had a good race but went birdless
2-Virgil/Terry Chandler Beau/Bill Gibbons -Virgil had a good forward race but was hurt by 2 non-productives. Beau had a good race and scored 2 finds.
3-Crystal/James Messer Pede/Gene Wullkotte -I did not see this brace but both went birdless
4-Colt/Terry Chandler Duke/Nick Besenick -Colt was picked up when a bird wild flushed and he did not stop. Duke had a average race with one find
5-Scout/Terry Chandler Ultimate Pride/Bill Padavano -Scout was not wanting to run today. Pride had a good race and had one non-productive and not sur eif he had a find.
6-Fly/Harvey Franco Zack/Gene Wullkotte -Fly had a good race with multiple finds. Zack had a good race with multiple finds. Both dogs had to have a bird shot for the retrieve after the brace since there was not an opportunity to shoot a bird on course.

Sunday
1-Rusty/ Don Dalton Buster/Gene Wullkotte
2-Remi/Terry Chandler Opal/James Messer
3-Stepper/Gene Wullkotte Freckles/Bill Gibbons
4-Morgan/Chandler Luke/Nick Besnick
5-Bar-Fly/Terry Chandler Willie/Terry Chandler

The only difference so far with the NGSPA/AKC event is people wearing orange and the judges looking for four placements.

We will draw the AA tonight and it is looking like 6 to 8 dogs.

[Crestonegsp]

OSD 2010 NGSPA Chukar Championship
Champion - Fly / Harvey Franco
RU - Rusty / Don Dalton
3rd AKC - Opal / James Messer
4th AKC - Remi / Terry Chandler

Judges Chris Goegan / Ric Peterson


AA will start this morning with 6 entries
1- Chloe / Messer Colt / Chandler
2- Dixie / Goegan Wyatt / Chandler
3- Ed / Messer Jacko/ Chandler

[Crestonegsp]

2010 NGSPA AA Championship
Winner - Wyatt /Terry Chandler
RU - No RU named
3rd AKC - Crystal/Messer
4th AKC - Dixie/Goegan

ASD starts in the morning