Improper Stacking at Field Trials

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Tue May 15, 2007 12:59 pm

Some people came on here and chastised us field trialers for the impropiety of our stacks, and I tried to explain that there are alot of distractions going on, such as people trying to do rabbit ears and such, to the poor stacker. I got some pictures from the NGSPA Region 9, and found an out take that explains the whole thing better than I ever could.

Now, the person kneeling and doing the "stacking" is named Heinz Ahlman. He is the owner of Slick Dixie's Tarkus, which won the National Gun Dog Championship twice, and Heinz won the NGSPA National ASD with him also. In the background on the right is noted judged Frank Muterspaw, who has come all the way from So. Cal. to preside over this event, and on the left (as you face the photo), is noted judge Randy Barry, who I believe has owned at least one NFC wirehair. The dog of course is this year's NC and I am the ugly older guy ("older" being the designation for someone who is not yet death bed old, but getting there) with the piece of cloth, the owner of the dog.

My point being this should be a pretty knowledgeable and serious crowd, right? I mean, they of all people should know how seriously a stack must be taken. They should know better.

And there, in the middle, is a guy who has won more National Championships of various kinds than I know about, who should also know better, trying to put a better shine on the distinguished Mr. Ahlman's northern semi-orb.

On top of it, everyone seems to think it is funny.

I completely agree with the criticisms, our conduct in stacking the dog is shameful and embarrassing. I will speak sternly to these gentlemen immediately and advise them of the concerns that have been expressed.

TNovoa · Post by **TNovoa** » Tue May 15, 2007 1:34 pm

Maybe he was just being careful there wasn't too much reflection off the top of his head to ruin the shot!

But, hey, look at that stack! Nice gentle handling as the dog's head lies comfortably in one hand and he isn't being held up by his tail with the other! That dog could be a DC!

OK...about this stacking FT dogs... I just wanted to know why people with dogs with awesome accomplishments would not want their dogs to look like a million bucks for a picture that's going to get published. I would go the extra mile, but that's me.

PntrRookie · Post by **PntrRookie** » Tue May 15, 2007 1:40 pm

I appreciate all these "stacks". Tracy, what are some tips for those of us who will never own a DC, yet have had a few accomplishements that require a stack. I know my GSP hates it...

[/url]

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Tue May 15, 2007 1:49 pm

Tracey, you are wonderful, you have a sense of humor.

I will give you a serious answer to your question. It is because the stacking is not how we pose dogs for advertising or publicity. It really is a mess when we try to take those pictures, there are alot of people around and alot of dogs together in one place. They will get a scrunched up rear end on some dogs because they have to get all four in the picture, and the frame is only so big, so squeeze together everybody. They are in a hurry to get it done before it rains or so the next stake can start.

If we are going to pose a dog for publicity, we put it on a bird and let nature take its course. That is what gets us field trialers' blood flowing. Like this, which was turned into a hand drawing that hangs on my wall:

Or this:

Or this one, which hangs in the Bird Dog Museum:

We like them better when they do it unaided, without human hands, as they were designed to do. That simple. Those other pictures are just for fun, and to let the owners and handlers get into the frame.

TNovoa · Post by **TNovoa** » Tue May 15, 2007 2:19 pm

I get the point, John. Those are beautiful pictures. Ironically, I don't have any outstanding field shots

- not that I couldn't get any if I was better photographer!

PntrRookie, have you tried bait? That's what everyone uses in the show ring, or have someone throw a toy in the direction the dog is facing. Do you really need a "stack" for a shot other than a show award? I also like a front shot, or sitting pose, with the awards on one side and owners/handlers/ judges on the other or behind?

PntrRookie · Post by **PntrRookie** » Tue May 15, 2007 2:30 pm

The "bait" may work, doubt if many organizers would go through the trouble. Last issue of the Field had a big picture of multiple brits. I mean like ten or more. There must have been some kind of bait, because they were all heads high and "looking" to the same thing/spot. VERY nice shot. Front would not be bad, but I don't think a sitting shot would fly, due to the fact that most pointing dog guys don't teach a sit command.

Thanks:)

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Tue May 15, 2007 2:48 pm

That's it. It is just a matter of what you are interested in.

For beautiful field shots, you do not need much of a camera. The shot that hangs in Grand Junction, TN was taken a year or so ago with an old 3 megapixel camera. A nice lofty point looks best, which means waiting until you have good scenting conditions. And also, you need to get down to ground level or actually below the level of the dog, or they look squat and weird instead of lofty and beautiful. Take some from several angles so you can pick the best. That is all the advice I have, I am a rookie at taking pictures of dogs. I am learning though.

TNovoa · Post by **TNovoa** » Tue May 15, 2007 3:06 pm

I hope it's ok to post links to websites, but they are public so, here's a link to one of the top show breeders in the country (Myst/VJK).

A "family" photo - and they're all standing, not stacked:

http://www.mystkennels.com/MYST2006GSPC ... PCANSS.htm

Bait is usually some little tasty treat you have in your pocket. Let the dog have a taste then toss a piece out in front of him just before the picture's taken. This is usually a distraction to a dog that hates being stacked and he'll poise nicely with a "where did it go" attitude.

Casper · Post by **Casper** » Tue May 15, 2007 3:24 pm

Than again when a dog does enough wining I think they may learn themselves how to stand

By the time this photo was taken Mike (the dog) had had enough and wanted to get out of there

Regardless If the dog is wearing a ribbon he sure looks good to me. Than again like John aluded to the only time I want to see a dog standing is when there is a bird in front of it

phermes1 · Post by **phermes1** » Tue May 15, 2007 4:07 pm

What bothers me with some of the field stack shots I've seen ... OK, I know everybody loves a high tail, and I agree with them, but that doesn't mean when you're posing the dog that you should grab the tail and jack it up as high as you can possibly get it - for dogs whose tails aren't naturally that high, it looks ridiculous and it can be painful. I know of at least one incident where a guy got bit for doing it.

Just my .02.

AHGSP · Post by **AHGSP** » Tue May 15, 2007 7:36 pm

Something must be wrong with the Trialers I've had the pleasure of meeting and running with... Knowledgeable, YES, but the only time they're serious, is when they're talking dogs or running them. That can even be questionable at times.

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Tue May 15, 2007 8:23 pm

You are getting it Bruce. Bring that attitude with you and you are welcome in camp any time. Youngest guy brings the single malt.

phermes1 · Post by **phermes1** » Wed May 16, 2007 6:20 am

AHGSP wrote:Knowledgeable, YES, but the only time they're serious, is when they're talking dogs or running them. That can even be questionable at times.

For that matter, the folks that don't relax and ARE serious ALL the time - you don't want to hang out with!!

AHGSP · Post by **AHGSP** » Wed May 16, 2007 9:06 am

I may or may not make the youngest John, but I'll still bring the bottle! Preferred brand?

phermes,
Yep, gotta agree with you. All serious=no fun!

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Wed May 16, 2007 9:53 am

With Pointers all you do is say "Cheeeeeese!"

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Wed May 16, 2007 10:23 am

It is a test Bruce. No one will judge you on your looks, your dog, or your personality. But the single malt you choose will explain your character.

Can't give the answer in advance. That would ruin the test.

Heck, the truth is none of it will last very long. We gotta portray ourselves as having some mysterious rituals that we don't talk about.

Post by **pear** » Wed May 16, 2007 10:56 am

Wagonmaster wrote:It is a test Bruce. No one will judge you on your looks, your dog, or your personality. But the single malt you choose will explain your character.

Can't give the answer in advance. That would ruin the test.

Heck, the truth is none of it will last very long. We gotta portray ourselves as having some mysterious rituals that we don't talk about.

......Let me see if I have this figured out, (reading between the lines here) If Bruce shows up, (or anybody for that matter) with a properly labled bottle, pay no attention to brand or if not labled, if contents burns blue all will be fine. Yea that's it I think I got it !! .....

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Wed May 16, 2007 11:04 am

Aw geez, you guessed it. There goes the mystique.

AHGSP · Post by **AHGSP** » Wed May 16, 2007 3:37 pm

Around these parts, that could be a clear bottle with no label on it that you could run a properly built engine on!

Of course there are ol' standby's like Jameson and Glenlivet, or a blend like Famous Grouse or Chivas Regal........

MMMMMM, making me thirsty for a shot o' peach!

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Wed May 16, 2007 4:43 pm

If you bring that kind of stuff, you have to bring the syringe and the oranges too.

"Nice" and "blend" is an oxymoron.

I will give you an assignment. Go find a nice bottle of Caol Ila, 25 year at least. Bring that. Have not tried it and hear it is pretty good.

Casper · Post by **Casper** » Wed May 16, 2007 5:33 pm

John what is it that Eldon keeps in his trailer? He shared some with me mighty fine. I never had anythign like that before. Its always been cheap wiskey for me.

Just as I typed that last word I just realized that the topic went from stacking a dog up to stacking ourselves up :roll:

Post by **pear** » Wed May 16, 2007 6:34 pm

Wagonmaster wrote:I will give you an assignment. Go find a nice bottle of Caol Ila, 25 year at least. Bring that. Have not tried it and hear it is pretty good.

WOW!!! At $180.00 a bottle that is some assignment. ..."pear"

AHGSP · Post by **AHGSP** » Wed May 16, 2007 6:36 pm

And what's wrong with that Casper?

Ok, back to our regularly scheduled SERIOUS discussion about proper stacks!

AHGSP · Post by **AHGSP** » Wed May 16, 2007 6:46 pm

pear wrote:
Wagonmaster wrote:I will give you an assignment. Go find a nice bottle of Caol Ila, 25 year at least. Bring that. Have not tried it and hear it is pretty good.
WOW!!! At $180.00 a bottle that is some assignment. ..."pear"

$180.00 a bottle! KMA!!! I'll have to win big to spring for that!!!!

How about a nice gallon of "spring water", a case of oranges and a couple of IV's? OH, and beernuts? or is that bearnuts?!

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Wed May 16, 2007 8:17 pm

Casper it was either the Lagavulin that he always keeps around, or the rest of the Glenfarclas I brought, but I think you were gone by the time that got opened, so probably the Lagavulin. A little mediciny tasting? Lagavulin.

Pear, seriously, do you know where I can get a bottle of that? I can't find it around here and was told it was good. If you let me know, then Bruce can fly up and pick some up.

wannabe · Post by **wannabe** » Wed May 16, 2007 8:34 pm

Lagavulin??? Mediciny??? IMO, it taste like smokey iodine wrung out of an old pair of gym socks.

If you want to try something good, get a bottle of Redbreast.

Post by **pear** » Wed May 16, 2007 8:50 pm

Wagon....I'm assuming Bruce will jump right on the six bottle case, to take advantage of the huge discount, and get that right up to you...

http://www.samswine.com/caol-year-singl ... 28410.html

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Wed May 16, 2007 9:20 pm

I assume so also.

The is a wonderful website pear, thanks. I will have to order some of that...right after the Powerball drawing tonite.

phermes1 · Post by **phermes1** » Thu May 17, 2007 5:43 am

I think I know why there's so much improper stacking at field trials - all the trialers are drunk - apparently on scotch!

wannabe · Post by **wannabe** » Thu May 17, 2007 6:52 am

phermes1 wrote:I think I know why there's so much improper stacking at field trials - all the trialers are drunk - apparently on scotch!

The secret to a good stack is, take the picture before the celebrating starts.

AHGSP · Post by **AHGSP** » Thu May 17, 2007 8:10 am

I'll be sure to take advantage of the case discount and buy us both a case, right after I actually win the Powerball! Of course, if I win the Powerball, I'll probably blow the whole lot on dogs, whiskey and ...........
uhhh, nevermind, I'm Married.

I do believe this discussion has led to the discovery of the reason behind poor stacks at FT's! Good job Phermes and Wannabe!

Jeez! $180.00 a bottle! You sure do have expensive taste! As if horses, dogs, trailers and the lot aren't expensive enough!

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Thu May 17, 2007 9:29 am

I don't know about all the trialers, but the winners are known to have imbibed a few. That is another thing about those pictures, hurry up and get em done before the single malt evaporates.

So, now that you know the truth behind all those pictures and scrunched up dog rear ends, any show person - at least one who is sober and knows how to actually stack a dog - and who dares to show up at camp, is welcome to stack our dogs properly for us. Maybe even give a little seminar. We will behave. We promise.

Blue Dawn Kennel · Post by **Blue Dawn Kennel** » Thu May 17, 2007 8:47 pm

Hey all~ Did I hear malt beverages calling and stacking the winning dog(s)

??? I've been out of town finishing up our spring trial season and thought I'd throw in some stacking pictures and set ups as well. Just my 2 cents. Now I'm a little better stacker than the husband but he can do okey most of the time.

Here's some pics from our next to last trial (Ringeck GSPC). Emmie "BDK's War Emblem" OLGD winner:

BDK's Robbin The Bank "aka Bob" winner of the Ringneck GSPC OGD:

Oh yes that is us w/ our first red dog on the string, very nice young pup named Touchdown Kid "aka Diamond". What an awesome pup that has started out great in his career and owned by Mike and Darlene Lundy of KS. Not the greatest stack as pups don't generally know what is going on. hehe

Here's just a couple others from the 07 NGSPA Great Plains AA Championship:

And a few set up shots~

Okey I'm done, sorry I just love looking at great dogs showing their stuff. Thanks for letting me jump in all.

Robbi

phermes1 · Post by **phermes1** » Fri May 18, 2007 6:50 am

Blue Dawn Kennel wrote: Oh yes that is us w/ our first red dog on the string, very nice young pup named Touchdown Kid "aka Diamond". What an awesome pup that has started out great in his career and owned by Mike and Darlene Lundy of KS. Not the greatest stack as pups don't generally know what is going on. hehe

Well then, what a small world. We just bred our girl Buffy to Diamond's daddy, Tommy Boy. We're hoping that the breeding took as we're very excited about that litter!

Blue Dawn Kennel · Post by **Blue Dawn Kennel** » Fri May 18, 2007 1:42 pm

Phermes1~ Tommy is a super nice male. We've had the opportunity to watch him run a few times when in competition. Diamond is looking to be following in the ole man's paw prints. Good Luck w/ Buffy and the upcoming litter.

phermes1 · Post by **phermes1** » Fri May 18, 2007 2:03 pm

Thanks. Tommy's stellar accomplishments and those of his kids certainly impressed us. After seeing pictures and actually meeting him, we feel very lucky to have bred to him.
Buffy BETTER be pregnant!!!

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri May 18, 2007 6:34 pm

The main point in my opinion in stacking a dog has not been addressed in this whole thread. I have waited and read waiting for someone to make the point and it hasn't happened.

Instead of blaming the stacker we need to look at the stackee. The dog has to be taught to stack properly. The first time you try it they look just like most of the pics we all say is the stackers fault but until the dog gets used to having it's legs placed it is going to pull back and have an arched back and looks like it would like to be someplace else.

With minimal practise they get over that amd look good even if the stackers are fooling around and wanting to go get a cold one.

Ezzy

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Fri May 18, 2007 9:22 pm

It's hard enough to train the dogs to even be a threat to get in the winners circle let alone plan ahead to train for the photos!!

As the "stacker" a few times, it's just not that easy. Like John says, you've either got another dogs face in your dogs rear or another dogs rear in your dogs face. Add the excitement of the situation (oh, yah, they know they done good!)...just take the darn picture!

Blue Dawn Kennel · Post by **Blue Dawn Kennel** » Sun May 20, 2007 6:37 pm

That's exactly right. Most of the broke dogs don't have problems it's the young ones that have never had all this stuff done with them or even some of the older dogs just plan don't pose well. I've had a couple maybe over the years that hated to stack no matter what and was always a struggle, but I gotter done and pictures didn't turn out to aweful bad. You just have to do the best you can with what the dogs will let you get by with. Granted some dogs were made to be possed up w/ or without us behind them.

AHGSP · Post by **AHGSP** » Sun May 20, 2007 6:46 pm

I certainly liked that last 4-5 poses!

Now that we're back to talking about stacking dogs instead of handlers, I'm kinda speechless

Adam · Post by **Adam** » Mon May 21, 2007 7:04 pm

what about all the distractions at shows? there are hundreds or thousands of dogs people all over add in outdoor shows and you have even more distractions and yet those people can stack their dogs.. if you tell that dog whoa and get control of the head there is no reason you shouldn't be able to take a good picture of the dog stacked..

AHGSP · Post by **AHGSP** » Mon May 21, 2007 7:18 pm

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Mon May 21, 2007 7:55 pm

What about the bird work at shows. Oh, wait, there isn't any, is there?

I liked your .gif Bruce.

Adam · Post by **Adam** » Mon May 21, 2007 9:31 pm

Wagonmaster wrote:What about the bird work at shows. Oh, wait, there isn't any, is there?

I liked your .gif Bruce.

I forgot all about that sorry!!!!

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Mon May 21, 2007 9:43 pm

Hey Adam, there is just a little light hearted pickin' on each other going on here. That is the actual subject of this thread, if there is anyone who has not figured it out yet. Other than Bruce.

phermes1 · Post by **phermes1** » Tue May 22, 2007 6:31 am

Adam wrote: if you tell that dog whoa and get control of the head there is no reason you shouldn't be able to take a good picture of the dog stacked..

I think you can manage to take an acceptable picture of a dog stacked, I don't know if you can get a good stack that easily with a lot of dogs.

Maybe that depends on the definition of a good stack. Do we mean a stack that is good enough for the show ring? Because I haven't seen many of those at field trials at ALL.
Or do we mean just one where the dog looks nice, although it could definitely be improved upon?
I opt for the latter at field trials. I'm not at a show. I want my dog to look nice, but it doesn't have to be absolutely perfect. The performance in the field that got us in front of the camera is what's important.