nbdc or phu?

arrowbanshee · Post by **arrowbanshee** » Wed May 16, 2007 8:57 am

does anyone here participate in the national bird dog challenge or pheasant hunters unlimited trials? The trainer that is helping me along runs his dogs in these events and I was curious as to who has seen them and/or participated in them and what they think. Any input would be great, thanks.

ckfowler · Post by **ckfowler** » Wed May 16, 2007 9:42 am

I sponsor UFTA/BDC events, have for several years now. There are many with strong feelings for and against these formats. I enjoy them and think that they give my dog more opportunities to demonstrate or sharpen qualities I want during the regular season and keep my shooting sharp too.

More important than my or anyone else's opinion on them will be yours. Decide what do you want from your dog and then work in the format that best approximates your own goals.

If you want your dog standing tall while you empty your gun at an escaping bird, then training for AF or AKC MH events might fit better. If your dog reliably retrieving is important, than these or NSTRA events might fit better. If you want your dog ranging large, then events in smaller fields could be counterproductive. If you want a closer worker, then trainiing for events that expect a ton of run will be frustrating to you both. If you want to do w/o the competitive "best dog there" side and just show that your dogs meets standards, then NAVHDA or AKC hunt tests will show that. If you want to be part of the competition, not just the dog's abilities, then tournaments favor that.

arrowbanshee · Post by **arrowbanshee** » Wed May 16, 2007 9:47 am

thanks for the input, I am very new to all of this. Would it be reasonable to try to train for these and AKC and NAVHDA? or would that be counter productive?

Dave Quindt · Post by **Dave Quindt** » Wed May 16, 2007 12:50 pm

If your plan is to run your dog in any AKC/NAVHDA event, I'd shy away from any of the "find, flush and shoot" events like nbdc, phu or nstra. These events are very "hard" on a dog and reward (or allow) behavior that would disqualify you in most events sanctioned by one of the major dog testing organizations.

These events are fun, but they are not dog trials. If you are looking for a place to start, start with the AKC hunt test program; great way to get your feet wet in a format that's not detrimental to the overall development of your dog.

FWIW,
Dave

ckfowler · Post by **ckfowler** » Wed May 16, 2007 1:46 pm

It is possible to run in Tournaments or NSTRA and keep your dog at the MH level but typically easier to do the AKC training first and add other events when that behaviors is ingrained. Part of the problem lies in events that require the dog to retrieve vs events that DQ a dog for pursuing a bird that has bene shot at, even by blank gun. The amount of training required to have a dog that will fetch when told and walk away from what is in their mind a possibly wounded bird is pretty intense. Not usually a task for first time owners with pups, at least not early in their life together. If you want your hunting dog to behave like the requirements for AKC events, then train for that. If you don't think what they stress is as important to you outside the test/competition, then look for something that is a closer match. Most people I know who want AKC or other titles w/o retrieves do them first and then play in other venues and hunt their dogs when those are done.

e.g.; I wanted my setter to hunt running pheasants and to never leave a wounded bird in the field. I trained her on pheasants way before I ever heard of tournaments, much less ran in any. I want her to be able to relocate on moving birds, AFTER I get within range. She circles birds as I approach to keep them from squirting out ahead. Great in my fields, scored poorly in NSTRA and DQ for most other events. I want her to all but catch the bird I shoot at on it's way down as rooster are track stars when winged. Steady to wing and shot, much less to fall just doesn't fit what I want. I have even encouraged her to flush birds that are in thick stuff so I can remain where I have room to swing. Not acceptable in most events, even some of the Tournament organizations. I run her now and then in NSTRA as I like the format and the local people I have met there but Tournaments events are a closer fit to my expectations on any other day in the field. I have friends that say she would be a shoe in for JH and pretty easy to touch up to SH levels but don't need titles for my spayed family companion so just haven't added one more set of events.

phermes1 · Post by **phermes1** » Wed May 16, 2007 2:16 pm

ckfowler wrote:It is possible to run in Tournaments or NSTRA and keep your dog at the MH level but typically easier to do the AKC training first and add other events when that behaviors is ingrained.

This is pretty much what I did, albeit by accident. I have a dog that recently finished its DC in 2005 and its MH this past March. I ran him in a few NSTRA trials last summer just for the heck of it; they were being held at a hunt club I belong to, I was there anyway, so why not. I and tried to keep him performing at the AKC field trial/MH level each time I succeeded for the most part, but the problem is that I essentially handicapped myself in terms of succeeding at the NSTRA trial.
From what I saw and what I was told, it's an advantage in NSTRA to have your dog break on shot - you waste less time on each bird and can get to your next find quicker. You'd think a few seconds wouldn't make a difference, but I definitely lost out on more than 1 bird because my bracemate got there literally less than 5 seconds before me. But if I had let my dog break and finished the previous bird just a wee bit faster...
I don't know - I think it's possible to do both, but in the end, you have to pick which one you'd rather succeed at. I'm sticking with the AKC stuff for the time being. NSTRA is fun and all, but imo, it puts a little too much emphasis on # of finds and the quality of your bracemate. A dog could win a trial not necessarily because it was the best dog, but because its bracemate was a pig and yielded 90% of the field to him and let him find all the birds.
My .02.

tyleetess · Post by **tyleetess** » Wed May 16, 2007 8:35 pm

I run my labs in the tournament hunts and really enjoy the games. To me it works out fine for them, like previously stated by another post, I was in pheasant country and wanted my dogs on the falling birds ASAP to get on wounded birds that run like &%$#. I recently bought an english setter and I am leaning towards NSTRA with her just to try something new and really tournament hunts are rare in the area I just moved to, but I will continue to run my labs in them.

lvrgsp · Post by **lvrgsp** » Mon May 21, 2007 11:24 am

I have ran both the NBDCA & PHU. And I agree 100% with what Dave said they are fun and if you can go into them with the mindset that it is a training run and not a competition and keep your dog broke, I don't see a problem with it, but if you are wanting to run AKC hunt tests I personally would not mix the two. The thing I did not like about the tournament hunters is the fact that I have seen flash points from pointing dogs qualify for score, and the fact that a running walk is allowed. I liked the fact that your not braced with anyone and everyone was extremely nice, and like I said it was a good day of training for me with some good friends.

JMO,
Chip