Newbie with a few questions

[wgonfan]

Hi there, I just got my 1st gundog, a GWP. I plan to train & hunt him myself. I will mostly be hunting Rabbit & squirel on a weekly basis, hunting quail & woodcock once or twice a month & hopefully some upland birds once or twice a season, I even plan to use my GWP to help track downed big game. I currently dont do any waterfowling but plan to within the next couple of years. With that being said I have decided to use the NAVHDA's "green book" as my training guide. My pup is 8 wks old & I'm going to expose him to pen raised quail this weekend. I'm also going to start exposing him to .22 blanks this weekend as well.

I haven't decided on a name but the names Cargo & Guy have been suggested - you think these names could conflit with any common training commands?

What are you personal experinces with the green book?
also I'm looking for any advice on how to get my pup going on the right foot & what to expect at this age.

any suggestion & comments are welcomed & apperciated.

heres a pic of the little guy


Thanks,

[grant]

Congrats on your first gun dog! I'm sure you will enjoy hunting with him.

I don't have any experience with the green book, but you could also try videos.

The two that I recommend are:
http://www.gundogforum.com/index.php?page=store
http://www.perfectionkennels.com

I've got a beginners guide here:
http://www.gundogforum.com/index.php?page=gdfarticle5

IMO, I wouldn't start out with the gun yet. As others have said here, let the dog get comfortable and EXCITED about birds, then break him into the gun. =)

Hope this helps!

Grant

[Greg Jennings]

I don't do NAVHDA, but I've heard from those that do that the Green Book is a place to start but that some of the material is now dated.

I think Grant has steered you straight on the gun intro. Wait till your pup grows up some.

Best regards,

[ezzy333]

Let your puppy be a puppy! Teaching the basics is all you need to do at this age. Teach come and other commands you want to use. Take it out for walks and let it explore without restrictions being placed on it till he gets a little older.

Ezzy

[portsider44]

I haven't decided on a name but the names Cargo & Guy have been suggested - you think these names could conflit with any common training commands?



Thanks,

Welcome to the board!!

I am with the others on using of the 22 blanks right away. There are lots of training slip ups you can cure but gun shyness tends to be a diffcult one to break.

As for the name? Choose what you like & then use common sense in you training. If you go with Cargo, just make sure you don't use "go" in your training. Also just because XX.X% of trainers use <blank> as a command doesn't mean you have to use the same command for your dog. SOme folks like avoid common training commands, so their dog doesn't follow another handlers commands for his/her dog.

I would also recommend reading several books on training & try to use the best of all them to train your dog.

Good Luck

[birddog]

Welcome wgonfan, happy to see you followed the link to this site.
What ever method you choose stick with it. There are many here who will be happy to help you through your training. If you want to go the NAVHDA route I would suggest you find a chapter in your area where you can get heads on advice. Good luck and happy hunting with your new pup.
Janet!

[llewgor]

Welcome to thew forum
Common mistake by all of us is to rush, trying to get it done.
I agree with everyone no guns yet, basic obedience training for now. And I like the perfect start dvd by perfection kennels,they'll show you how to introduce your dog to birds and the gun.
Good luck and have fun.

[wgonfan]

I think I did rush it a little, & I hope I haven't done any harm.. I went out & bought some live quail today. When I got home I clipped thier wings, & let my pup see smell & taste one of them, while he was checking it out I was excitedly saying "bird" over & over. then I set it loose in the field, I brought my pup to with-in 10 yards downwind of the bird & started saying bird again, he never could seem to get ahold of the scent nor did he move more than 5 feet from me looking for it. He was definetly looking for it but didn't cover any ground, he basically just went five feet infront of me & back, didn't even zig zag. I then moved closer to the bird & he honed in a little better but several times jumped or ran right over the bird, he eventually did find it & pointed for a moment. I then let him play with the bird before I hid it again & sent him after it. After a total of 4 times I picked the bird up & carried it back to the pen, it wasn't until I started to walk off that the pup really started to search for the bird & looked like he was "hunting". After he realized how far away I was (50 yards), he came off it & ran to me.

I was just wondering if this is normal, or should he be able to scent the bird out better, we had pretty good winds today (15 mph max) & I started him off down wind of the planted bird. My real concern was when he would be right ontop of the bird & not know it, that & the fact that he wouldn't leave my side.

Am I doing more harm than good.

Should I wait until I'm more educated before I try any field excercises with him.

I plan to let him go ahead I have his way withone of the birds tomorrow, is this not advisable?

[grant]

For the pups range and ability to work the wind, you shouldn’t expect much from a pup until 8 -12 months old; especially a male pup. The pup is a natural hunter, but it will take time for him to develop his hunting abilities. Putting your pup on lots of birds and letting him make mistakes while you sit back and watch will work miracles for him.

If I were you, I’d let the pup be a pup while you put yourself through bird dog trainers boot camp. Watch videos and learn as much as you can before working the dog too much. There is lots of good info out there. The way I see it, watching videos can expose you to methods that took the authors many years to learn and perfect. Keep us posted!

[TAK]

Just my opinion but I think you are expecting to much this early in the game. 8 weeks right? I would and do this with my young pups. I will tease them up a bit with a clipped winged bird and toss it out for them to mouth. THe pup is on a check cord and I am milking it back when the pup has the bird in mouth. If the pup drops it I stop the CC milking and let them pick it up again. This helps the retrieve and also introduction to birds. You will be better served by taking the dog out for walks in the fields, woods or what ever. Let him find sticks, weeds, leaves, snow etc let them learn there surrondings. At 8 weeks I am making every outing a possitive with them. While out in the field I am not hoping to find birds but only get them to explore! If I do add a bird for them I disable this bird so it can not give this pup a wing slap or scare a pup in any way.

[TAK]

For the pups range and ability to work the wind, you shouldn’t expect much from a pup until 8 -12 months old; """"especially a male pup"""".

?????? why so ??????

[grant]

Generally, every male that I’ve seen takes longer to mature than the females, which shows in training and in the field. Have you noticed the opposite?

[snips]

Well, every dog is different at the level they mature. But for the Wirehair pup, I WOULD NOT PUSH IT. I have worked many Wires and KNOW they mature very slow. Pups are much more apt to focus on live birds at 10-12 weeks old. After you expose him to a clipped wing bird and have him real excited, then you want him on ONLY birds that fly. This will get him pointing. And DO NOT START SHOOTING around him for a good while, you want to bring out alot of bird instinct before trying to fire anything around him. I say all this to you because we get ALOT of dogs in here to train that come from someone overdoing it on pups. Don`t worry about obedience, just do some puppy retrieving, socialize him and make it fun. We see many dogs made gun sensitive, or that won`t point because people put ut birds the pup can catch. So take you time, and have a good time!

[TAK]

Generally, every male that I’ve seen takes longer to mature than the females, which shows in training and in the field. Have you noticed the opposite?

Not the complete oppisite.... I guess it goes 60/40. I think that females are a bit more forgiving than a male with mistakes in training. I am just one that would take 10 males to 1 female....

[birddog]

Here is a good example of a novice trying to train a dog with no direction in mind and not listening to any advice that has been given to him on several Forums. Everything I read in your post wgonfan is wrong. You can't take a pup out in the field for the first time and expect that puppy to perform. You are getting yourself and your puppy way ahead of the game. I would suggest you get a plan of training before you proceed. The idea of a focused training program is to help your dog succeed. To jump here and there is a not the right start for him or any young pups training. You must start from the beginning and that means short walks in the field before you start with birds, the gun, etc.. Your job as trainer is to help the dog succeed. I feel the way you are going about his training is setting him and you up for sure failure. This is how I see it.

Janet

[kninebirddog]

At this stage in the PUPPY's life everything should be fun little learning games...

you can start teaching some basic commands like whoa with treats and at feeding time

www.brittanygundogs.com/Brittany_training.htm

even though this is a brittany site this information is a good foundation for what to do with birddog PUPPIES and some stages to go through till they are ready for formal trianing

I do have to agree you have some ideas of what you want BUT YOU NEED to follow the road to get to that point if you don't you are going to set yourself up and worse your pup up to fail

as for introducing to gun shots 22 blank or 22's or any type of rifle shot is the worse way to start.....I would seek some help through a local birddog club or preserve or professional trainer in your area as not handled right will end up being the end of a promising hunting dog

everything should be fun and simple ....You will have plenty of years with your dog let your pup grow up and introduce things in a fun and safe format for your pup...getting quail and letting him find them and chase them learning to point is a great thing...fresh dead and a cc learning to retrieve when a pup can be a god hting don't let him eat the birds and then when he picks up the bird call him to you gently guiding him your way with the cc and when he is next to you with the bird in his mouth reward him let him know he is doing good having that bird in his mouth next to you THEN ask for it don't just reach down and grab it from him
always leave him wanting more...if you toss the bird out and he doesn't pick it up the FIRST time don't make an issue out of it just go play something else...if he retrieves it and is real excited about that game go ahead and throw it one more time but this is only if he was real excited about the game ..then after that go PLAY something else....Key words word PUPPY games short sweet and simple and most important FUN

[wgonfan]

Birddog,
I appreciate your comments & your advice. But you are wrong in stating that I'm not follwing any advice. I have been told on many occiasions to expose my dog to clipped birds as soon as possible. Not just in the 2 forums you've seen me in, but also by local hunters & magazines that I've read. So thats what I did. I planned on exposing him to the .22 blanks, however you guys here said not to - therfore I didn't. Every one on every forum I have been on said that the exposure to the birds would be a good idea. As I stated in one of my previous post the ONLY advice I have been given was to expose him to live birds @ 8 wks old. & not the gunfire This is exactly what I did. If you feel that I did not take your advice, thats no reason to assume that I'm not taking advice from someone else.

Thanks again for everyones help.

[kninebirddog]

That is great to hear....I know many people get very excited about their new pups ....I was only trying to stress that part of having a plan for success not failure...sorry if it came across wrong...there are many ways to train and handle young dogs...anything which heightens a pups desire is great and guiding them down the path of success is what we all desire

I wish you all the best in your hunting future

[wgonfan]

oops, wrong birddog, my lat post was directed to "birddog" & not "knine birddog" sorry for the mix up

[birddog]

Tom, please don't take issue with my post. Exposure to birds is important but you must have some knowledge of the do's and don'ts. As in all aspects of training, you need to be aware of the mishaps that can occur. You just got this little puppy and already you have him on birds. There are better places to start in your pups development. I just don't think guns and birds are the place. . I am sure you will and have received some sound advice. All I am trying to stress is please look before you leap. Sorry for any misunderstanding.
Janet

[TAK]

I just think that you are expecting to much from the young pup.
I know when I read your first post I was a little taken also as I see others were too. I thought at first it was 8 months and it had little intrest in planted birds. This could be bad! Well I read it again and see there is not a thing wrong with this pup. Heck at 8 weeks I am happy if they are not under my fat foot when it is going down.
As far as gun fire I too would hold off. Bold the pup with different sounds, chain gangs, walks on a leash and off, rides in the car or truck, controlled visits with older dogs. When the pup can run like the wind and be in full chase of a bird then is when you need to take out the blank gun. Distance at first then work in closer

Just take your time. There are ribbons to win for the best trained dog but not the Fastest Trained dog!

[kninebirddog]

Just take your time. There are ribbons to win for the best trained dog but not the Fastest Trained dog!

Well said!

[Ayres]

Just take your time. There are ribbons to win for the best trained dog but not the Fastest Trained dog!

Well said!

Very well said, but also often misconstrued. We always hear brags about some dog that earned his MH by 7 months, was a DC by the time he was a year old, national field champ by 15 months (examples greatly exaggerated, of course). Point is, it's easy to get ultra-excited when you pick up your first dog and have many high aspirations. It is best to keep what Tak said in the back of your mind at all times.

I got my viz pup last June, and boy did he grow up fast. My wife is making a scrapbook for him now, and today we went through all the pictures we have of him. You can really tell a difference in size in a month. We look at him now and look at the pictures, and he's SO big compared to what he used to be.... and he's just 9 months old now.

Basically, the best advice you can get now is exactly what Grant said... let your pup be a pup, make everything a game and exciting for him... all the while YOU go through "birddog training camp" by selecting a training program that you will implement, and then learn/read/watch everything you can about it, over and over, until you know the answers to your questions before they arise in the field. You'll be glad you did later; I sure am glad I did.

(by the way, the Perfection Kennel programs "Perfect Start" and "Perfect Finish" are well worth the cash)