Sit command for pointers pups

[portsider44]

As some may know I am in process of getting my first pointer, after 10 years of being dogless.

SoO like a lot of soon to be owners I have been doing some reading. Right now I am reading Joan Bailey's book "How to Help Gun Dogs Train Themselves."

Any ways I came across something that shocked me a little. For those who haven't read the book Ms. Bailey is a firm beleiver in starting you training early. Verus waiting until they are over 1 y.o.a.

Her belief (for pointers) is that the sit command should not be taught until after whoa training has been learned & in most cases will not be until the dog is well over a year old. She feels learning sit will caused the dog to sit down when you try to whoa train later.

Of course I realize no one book or trainer has all the answers & I have no intention on following any one book to the letter. But just wanted to gets some opinions from others.

So do you teach "SIT" to your young pointer pups?

[grant]

Hope this helps:

http://www.gundogforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=446

[Greg Jennings]

If I remember right, you're getting a Vizsla.

In general, they are particularly soft and prone to sitting when pressured to staunch up.

Bobby Seelye, who is a pro trainer, field trialer of V's, jokes "Don't teach a V to 'S' 'I' 'T'" (spelling it so he doesn't even say it).

YMMV,

[dhondtm]

I taught my Weim sit and I'll teach my Vizsla sit as well. I understand why trainers suggest not teaching the dog to sit, but I don't see it being a very difficult thing to correct if it even becomes an issue. Then again I haven't trained a Vizsla yet so we'll see. I think the problem is sit tends to be one of the first things you teach your dog and give them praise for it. So when it begins to be to much stress on them in the field while they are in a whoa they revert back to a sit because they always got praise for it. It is just like when you teach your dog several tricks then you ask them to roll over and instead they extend the paw out to shake or something. They go through every trick they know because they are not sure which one your asking for.

I also hear trainers telling me to not take a dog through obedience training before finishing them with hunt training. Obedience training involves a lot of heal and the dog may learn to not distant itself from you and run big in the field anymore.

I believe the sporting breeds are smart enough to overcome both of these issues. If your just teaching a dog to hunt fine, but I want my dogs to be a bit more well rounded than that. I teach them to sit with stay and in the field I use whoa. I teach them to heal when I walk and in the field I always use with me. I believe in teaching the dog the difference between working a field and taking long hikes.

[snips]

I like to wait until a dog is solid in there pointing birds. It does not matter to me if it is before or after Whoa, just that a dog be good on their birds. I think you are much less likely to have a dog sit if they are well established on their pointing.

[GrouseHunter22]

I own Delmar Smith's video "Yard Training" and he says that if you want to teach your dog sit, then teach him sit.

[kninebirddog]

That is the last command i will ever teach a birddog to do..is sit until all the bird work and training is finished

[fuzznut]

It's just as easy to teach a puppy to "stand and stay" as to sit. I did a lot of obedience work with my first dog (got a CDX and trained through the UD, but never got it) and "now" I understand why it's a conflict for the dog. It's not that they can't learn the difference, but for some dogs it's just tough on them.

Serious obedience work teaches the dog to watch you, to follow you, to lean on you for guidence. They learn not to make a decision on their own, but rather look to you to tell them what to do.

I don't teach my youngsters to sit anymore... they learn to stand still and be patient, they even learn to lie down, but not sit. Maybe because I'm just lazy, maybe because I've learned from all the past dogs I've worked with......

[ward myers]

you mean some people actually teach thier dogs to sit ?
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[ward myers]

i am happy with the following:
whoa
here
give
load
dead bird

[ward myers]

i forgot one
hup
did i miss anymore

[portsider44]

Thanks for the replies, its always great to hear how others are handling training.

[dhondtm]

I don't teach my youngsters to sit anymore... they learn to stand still and be patient, they even learn to lie down, but not sit.

How is down any different from sit as far as the problems you may run into when teaching the dog to whoa? Perhaps if you just don't teach them down as a first command it won't be an issue. I still think the dogs tend to revert back to what they know they got praise for in the past when in a stressful situation.

It sounds like you have done a lot of obedience training with your dogs before or even during your field training? Do you see any problems with the dogs not running big and hunting? Do they always look for your direction and stay close to you when trying to hunt in the field?

I am trying to determine when is the proper time to introduce obedience training at an advanced level to the dog. At what level of field training should they be at before I begin any kind of obedience training?

[fuzznut]

I began my life in dogs with competitive obedience training, but once I got involved with trialing, I stopped.

Now I work on "useful" obedience, not formal obedience with my young dogs. They must come when called, be good on a lead, not eat my house and go lie down when they are told. (all of my dogs live in the house) I don't insist they do any of those things the instant I tell them to, not like you would if you were doing competitive obedience work. But they have to mind.

When they get older and the more formal work begins, they learn Whoa and all the other things they have to do.

Looking back on when I was trying to do both, competitive obedience and competitive field work.... I now realize I was asking the dog to just do too much. It did have a negative influence on their application in the field, I took away their independence and their ability/desire to think for themselves. A good trial dog has to be right on that edge of blowing you off, without blowing you off! They have to listen, but not necassarily spin on a dime when you call them. In an obedience trial, all their attention must be glued to you and they have to do it now, instantly, no independece allowed.

Is teaching down different than sit? Hmmmm, well, some dogs need some form of control to keep them liveable. Others, it may be too much for them. Different strokes for different temperments?

[snips]

I trained dogs to upper levels of obed, several UD`s and an OTCH. I never started on serious training until after a yr. (much like my birddog training.) BUT, I would have the dogs very focused in the right direction on their birds. I wanted them hunting boldly and independantly before honnimg any obedience skills. IMO, too much obedience too early can take away from the independance you want to see in the field. I don`t do much with pups but run them, from foot then a 4-wheeler when old enough. I let them learn where to hunt and find birds. When they are well rounded in these areas I don` feel that all the obedience in he world would hurt them.

[dhondtm]

Thanks for that answer, I guess by advanced obedience training I was refering to competitive obedience even though I wasn't considering competing. But, yes I was considering that level of obedience training and the more I looked into it the more I began to wonder if it is just going to make things more difficult for me in the early stages of my Weims field training.

As far as sit vs down I guess my point was when they are in a whoa in a field you don't want them doing either. This may be another whole topic but when working with stay before whoa .... well, this is why I introduce them to sit and down for working with stay. By separating stay from whoa I thought it helped the dogs learn stay meant they can stay in any position but whoa meant they had to stay at point or in a stand or stack like position. I thought this helped my training whoa when they already understood stay.

I also started field training late (2 yrs) so that may be why I am approaching the training a bit different. I too keep my dogs inside and as living pets so they need some obedience as well just perhaps not at a competitive level. I am still planning on getting a second dog and the training may be quite different since I will be starting her on birds right away. Which is why I continue to ask these types of questions to help me form an opinion. Thanks again for your input.

[Ayres]

If you're teaching a command and the dog sits instead, simply grab his but and stand him back up.

Danyelle and I taught our pup house manners first, being easiest and all (and stupidly following the advice of one of those AKC pet pamphlets) and he did start to sit when facing stressful situations such as learning the "stack" command in the show ring class. After a couple times of standing his butt back up and praising him for not sitting, he got the point that "sit" isn't the end-all of training. We didn't face much problem after that, and is sure is nice to have Justus calmly sit while we snap on the leash (instead of jumping all over us).

Teaching him to sit didn't ruin him, but I will admit it took us a little bit to correct behavior later when teaching other commands.

[ward myers]

ayres not all dogs are as forgiving as justus

[Colleen]

I think maybe the main issue is this : is pup to be a hard core, trial dog or hunting for your livelihood? Is there a reason to expect and demand absolute, 100% perfection from pup always? And will he be a house dog?

I'm with Ayres, mine being house dogs, manners came first. My male is by nature a well-mannered and obedient dog (most of the time) and my female is all piss and vinegar. Biscuit (female) was taught sit because she likes to jump on people, especially when she's excited, and being made not to move makes her control her excitement. It also rewards her for not jumping. I don't think she'll ever sit on point regardless, but on top of that, as much piss and vinegar as she is in the house, she's way more in the field. No way she's gonna sit down and get scared or take it easy witha bird right in front of her. Fletcher is a soft dog, who knows sit and gets praised for sit, but who has never sat while learning new commands and definitely never out in the field or while training him on birds. But just in case, I introduced another command -- up. That way, he's not only getting used to praise for doing the opposite of sitting, but also if for some reason he ever sat on point, or wherever it is people are afraid the dogs will sit, I can give him a command to un-sit himself, instead of just getting flustered.

[portsider44]

I think maybe the main issue is this : is pup to be a hard core, trial dog or hunting for your livelihood? Is there a reason to expect and demand absolute, 100% perfection from pup always? And will he be a house dog?

Biscuit (female) was taught sit because she likes to jump on people, especially when she's excited, and being made not to move makes her control her excitement. It also rewards her for not jumping. .

Good Point Colleen, Sit was a huge part of manner training my lab. It was one of his first mastered commands & it was easy to incorporate in other manner training.

Of course he was not a pointer, thanks for all the replies.

[krjens]

I wish I would have had this info before I started training my GSP. She tends to sit while teaching "whoa" as well as some of the other more difficult commands or stressful situations. I do think it is a good thing for them to know because it does seem to calm them down around people, but it does make it more difficult teaching some things. She is now 9 months old and seems to be doing better, but it has been frustrating having her sit when trying to whoa her. Like was said earlier, I think they can learn it either way but I think it would be much easier without them sitting first. I'll try it differently on my next pup and see how it goes.

[TAK]

I wish I would have had this info before I started training my GSP. She tends to sit while teaching "whoa" as well as some of the other more difficult commands or stressful situations. I do think it is a good thing for them to know because it does seem to calm them down around people, but it does make it more difficult teaching some things. She is now 9 months old and seems to be doing better, but it has been frustrating having her sit when trying to whoa her. Like was said earlier, I think they can learn it either way but I think it would be much easier without them sitting first. I'll try it differently on my next pup and see how it goes.

One thing you can do is while working whoa and she sits pull her with a constant presure with the collar and put your foot under her butt and lift. Don't say anything to her. When she is standing praise her and move her around and stop her again. If she sits do the same thing.......
Also at 9 months you have time you can free run her and forget about the whoa for a bit and let her gain some coffendence back....

[kninebirddog]

That is about all you can do ..i have seen timid dogs be more inclined to sit when ever they feel pressure which haven't been taught to sit...

Biggest thing is DON'T make an issue out of it neither good or bad...just calmly go and set the dog up in a whoa position give one gentle stroke down the side and step back make them stand for a few seconds go back to them reward for a job well done and release and walk around a bit and do the whoa command again..back off walk around go back to the dog reward for a job well done..then if the dog has done the entire excersise correct with no corrections go do something fun ...make these lesson sweet and simple to start and build up from there

[omega58]

I had this same question when first starting out with my weim pup, first bird dog as an adult. She is turning two at the end of the month and I have never had her sit whoaing her in the field.

When first teaching whoa, they need guidence regardless of it they learned "sit" or not. Just like teaching them anything.

When I joined NAVHDA last year, I was really relieved to hear that teaching 'sit' will not interfere with the 'whoa' and to go ahead and teach sit and get the obedience down. I will teach every dog I own basic obedience and 'sit' will be taught at an early age. . .my dog doesn't have a problem with range and hunts great for what I need her to. . I don't trial or ride a horse through the grouse woods of Michigan, so I don't want her 40 acres away on point.

BTW - I love Joan's book, I just use what I like out of it.