Whoooa?

[GrouseHunter22]

Are there any other sensible(sp?) ways to teach whoa other than with an e-collar or the whoa post? I just don't seem to like either one of them.

[snips]

I`m not crazy about them either, the way I do it is about as simple as it gets. I put a nylon collar around the flank, not very tight. Attach a leash to the neck collar. I start by moving around the front of the dog, give little tugs up and back on leash, teaching them to stand still. I just do baby steps a little at a time until dog understands, then get further out. If dog wants to move up I just pick them up by handles and set them back, give them a stroke to say "this is what I want". I continue to move back and forth in the front of the dog so he gets used to your movement. (as in flush) I always start by a tug back on the collar, say Whoa, then give a release command. I do maybe 8-10 a session. Once they know what you want you can make it harder by proofing some, kick a ball in front, pitch a stick, ect. When I am ready to start in the field I will practice it on the CC between birds.

[FTbritts]

I just don't seem to like either one of them.

have you tried either one of them?
If so, what don't you like about them?

[goddog]

To me the most sensible technique is approach it “gradual & slow”.
I wouldn’t use an EC to teach either, I find it does more harm then good, use it only to enforce a command pup already know, even that, best keep it to a minimium. A good rule of thumbis, if I have bump pup more then 2x on the same circumstance, it tells me I'm moving forward faster than I should in my training.

[snip]

I just don't feel like it is necesary to involve a post, or e-collar in teaching a dog Whoa. Standing still is pretty easy to teach a dog, and the less stress associated with it the better. I am sure there are many methods that work, I just like mine.

[goddog]

Just want to elaborate on the gradual and slow part.
Any time you break a dog, you are breaking its spirit, meaning you are taking its will from him. So, it has to have some pressure involved.
The key is to make the change over as smooth as you can create, I find by going slow is best way.

[TAK]

What two ways are you talking about?
I have to concur with Snips and Goddog a collar is not to teach with.....

[dhondtm]

An E collar can be used to correct a behavior. I wouldn't use it to teach your dog something new. I used a check cord to teach whoa and at a later stages I used a couple blocks of wood that I would have the dog whoa on to keep her aware of where her feet were. When introducing them to whoa just use a leash and give it a light snap when they try to take a step and repeat WHOA.

[llewgor]

I just pick the dog up with my arms, one under his flank the other across his chest under his neck and sit him back where I whoa him. Then I move to the table once they figure out what whoa means ( it's easier on my back) and do more repeats. You can do it also with a rope looped around the flank and neck and pick the dog up like a suitcase. I use the e-collar only for Here after they've learned Here from the check cord.

[GrouseHunter22]

What two ways are you talking about?
I have to concur with Snips and Goddog a collar is not to teach with.....

Well, I am talking about George Hickox's method with the e-collar and Delmar Smith's with the whoa post.

[FTbritts]

I use the whoa post and overlay the e collar on the flank once the dog understands what I am asking of him. Seems to work best using two contact points and keeps the dog less confused. and less likely to recall or stand still when I am asking him to go with me.
Unlike delmar's book I use a 1/2 hitch on the post work instead of a pinch collar.

[goddog]

Whoa breaking in not science, as one dog might accept the post better than the pinch collar, yet it might not respond to the ½ hitch at all. So, one way might seem sensible to one dog yet it's completely imprudent to another.

[FTbritts]

I agree it isn't science, and there are many ways to teach whoa, but I'd have to say that I have never seen a dog not respond to the 1/2 hitch at all.

[snips]

My reasoning is, why do you have to pinch a dog around his flank to teach him to stand still? I use a CC on the rear collar after I use the handle there, and I may use the E there at a later point. But some softer dogs or more sensitive dogs really don`t need it. Just using the reg. collar there I found it works even if you have a tough dog or hard headed dog. The point is to just teach a little at a time, not to try to break a dog in 2 or 3 days. I think that is where people get in trouble using Whoa around birds. I just think that by using all the devices people are looking for faster and faster ways of getting to the final product. I loved Delmars book, but feel it is very outdated in some ways. It is not that complicated.

[Country-Side Breeders]

I agree with Brenda in that the only thing needed to teach whoa is a collar, leash and patience. I start in the yard, taking very small steps and gradually working up to the dog being broke to whoa. If the dog moves, I pick him up, as llewgor mentioned, by the chest adn flanks and tell him to whoa. Only short sessions. The better mood the dog is in when you end it, the easier it is to teach. I have never used a collar to post to teach whoa. Grant is working on an article that has teaching whoa in it: http://www.gundogforum.com/starttofinish.php

[FTbritts]

Interesting . So neither one of you use a pinch collar or rope at all, just a standard collar and lead(no pinch or slip style lead at all? In any phase of training) I would tend to believe that you would need a contact point for the dog to understand. I'd be curious to what you use.

I think alot of people that don't use the post , do not understand the correct use. It is not harsh if done correctly. You are creating a contact point for later use on bird work. It is a go slow method. It's not about breaking a dog it all about training a dog to understand what you want of him...for him to submit his will without kindering his spirit.

[Duane M]

Well said FT. The post is too often used with too much force by most and it can cause some problems. I use the post on some dogs but do it the original way using a pinch collar instead of the flank rope, just like it better myself. Theres more ways to teach whoa than there are ways to skin a cat, from the methods already mentioned to the easiest I have found that works great for soft dogs. That being the heel/whoa like Paul Long uses I use the wonder lead when doing this method after the POC has been established on the neck. The flank hitch works well also but I have found that with most dogs the Ecollar is more needed with that method than others. Not an anti E at all but if I dont need it or the customer does not want it I leave the flank alone.

[snips]

Thats right, more ways to train Whoa than we can tell probably. There is no, "one-size-fits-all." Just have to experiment with what works for you. The origional poster just wanted an alternate method so I thought I would give my take on it. Yes, FTBrit, I use only the collar on the rear, and leash to the neck. Real simple. Now, headed out to a Trial.

[TAK]

Interesting . So neither one of you use a pinch collar or rope at all, just a standard collar and lead(no pinch or slip style lead at all? In any phase of training) I would tend to believe that you would need a contact point for the dog to understand. I'd be curious to what you use.

I think alot of people that don't use the post , do not understand the correct use. It is not harsh if done correctly. You are creating a contact point for later use on bird work. It is a go slow method. It's not about breaking a dog it all about training a dog to understand what you want of him...for him to submit his will without kindering his spirit.

FT mybe you could detail this way a bit, and we could ask some questions.
I for one have seen it used, but never have used it.

[FTbritts]

[OhioOnPoint]

I am telling you the truth when I say the buddy stick is revolutionary --

They key is that when dealing with a young pup, you are leading from the fron, instead of the pup leading from the front.

You have CONTROL!! -- It's like having a big fish on the end of your line, sort of.

If you have never tried this method, I suggest you try it out. I used to use, snubbing stakes, and the e-collar, etc...

Nothing compares to the buddy stick, and it is cheap and you can make it yourself for under $10. My 1.5 yr od GSP is ready to trial thx to the buddy stick!!

[HUTCH]

On my setter I was using a pinch collar and making him stand next to me and he just wasnt getting it. I put him on the whoa post and in two weeks he now slams on the breaks when he feels a nick of the e collar. I Pro once said something that stuck with me. he said he has at least 5 ways of getting it done all the time. I think this is the key to training dogs. they are not all the same some will learn one way and another will learn another so you better know how to train different ways.

[TAK]

What two ways are you talking about?
I have to concur with Snips and Goddog a collar is not to teach with.....

I eat my words! I believe you can teach with a e-collar!