Testing/ Trialing scenarios.... discuss "odd situation

[AHGSP]

While running Mason-Dixon GSPC's Hunt Test this weekend we had some rather "odd scenarios" play out that led to NQ's for some dogs and worked to the favor of others, which led to discussions amongst some of the more experienced there as to how they would Judge the situation and/or how they would handle in the situation. Then I see the post here on delayed chase and divided find and wonder if we couldn't all benefit as Handlers and Judges by taking turns posting "odd situations" that may come up in the field during a Trial or Test.

Anyone game?

I'll start with an "easy" one:

Master dog is sent for a retrieve of a downed Quail and almost exactly in the area the bird went down the dog "bumps" and chases after a VERY STRONG FLYING Chukar it perceives as the bird it was sent to retrieve.

How do you as a handler control the situation?
How do you as a Judge control/Judge the situation?

These may require more detail that we will have to work out, but I think this might be a great and long lived topic that ALL could benefit from and enjoy.

[ezzy333]

I think this would work if everyone will keep their answers short and to the point. Discussion of the answers could take place later and lead to some robust discussion that some of us could learn from.

Ezzy

[Buckeye_V]

One question. Did the dog come back with the bird?

If/when you send a dog for a retrieve, it has to come back with a bird. A bird. If the dog brought back the chukar, then I would give it the benefit of the doubt and leave it down. If it did not come back with the chukar, or the quail then I would have failed it. If it came back with the quail after chasing the chukar, I would leave the dog down and do another retrieve (after consulting with my fellow judge - of course).

That is a tough situation.

[lvrgsp]

Thats tuff, as a handler I would say he should have stopped to flush heel him away towards the original downed bird and command fetch to see if you could get him into the downed bird.

Another Scenario:
Dog points bracemate backs, bird flushed and shot, pointing dog steady to fall, backing dog breaks at the shot, pointing dog sent for retrieve as the backing dog is coming by, backing dog beats pointing dog to the bird, pointing dog fails for no retrieve.
JMO

Chip

[AHGSP]

Slow down Chip! Lets discuss one before we go to the next!

By the way, being the Chair I did not run any dogs, nor was this a dog of mine, so I can be completely un-biased in my opinions or thoughts. I will however, stand 120% behind what my Judges ultimate decisions were on this particular situation, or any other for that matter.

Buckeye,
No retrieve was completed on this particular bird. The Chukar was not what most would see from poor birds and the Quail, Chukar and Phez used were exceptional, but rather gave an approximate 250-300 yard flight! The dog chased for maybe 50 yards and the handler recognizing this was not the shot bird called the dog off.

Chip,
I was somewhat torn on the stop to flush myself, as the dog was attempting to retrieve what it thought was a wounded bird. On one hand, bumped bird, it should have STF; but on the other hand, I would want my dog to run down the "wounded" bird and retrieve it after having been given the Fetch command. I just don't know.....

I did watch this brace and will say that this was one VERY NICE Master level dog. I'll disclose my Judges decision after further discussion.

[CherrystoneWeims]

The dog chased for maybe 50 yards

If the bird was such a strong flyer and the dog chased for this amount I think I would have failed the dog. I think the dog should have stopped to flush. I personally would have wanted my own dog to STF in a scenario like this one.

[phermes1]

One question. Did the dog come back with the bird?

If/when you send a dog for a retrieve, it has to come back with a bird. A bird. If the dog brought back the chukar, then I would give it the benefit of the doubt and leave it down. If it did not come back with the chukar, or the quail then I would have failed it. If it came back with the quail after chasing the chukar, I would leave the dog down and do another retrieve (after consulting with my fellow judge - of course).

That is a tough situation.

OK, so let's say that the chukar landed in a tree out of the dog's reach and not retrievable. What has the dog done wrong to be failed? If the dog could not be redirected to the shot quail, I would be inclined to give it the benefit of the doubt; as far as it's concerned, it probably thinks there was only 1 bird out there - and it flew off - so there's nothing left to retrieve.

Slightly different situation; dog is sent for a retrieve, there is no 2nd bird, but the shot bird isn't really shot and is able to fly up into a tree and is not retrievable. Do you fail the dog then? If so, what did the dog do wrong?

The dog needs to be treated fairly. While it doesn't specify as much in the HT rules, it does specify in the FT rules that a dog sent on a retrieve that encounters a 2nd bird can point, stop to flush, or attempt to retrieve the bird without penalty. If the retrieve is completed, the dog will be credited with a completed retrieve with no penalty. I see no reason to treat the situation any different in a HT.

[AHGSP]

Phermes,

Your on the right path......

[Buckeye_V]

That's what I was getting at Paul. The dog would have no idea the second bird was there in certain scenting conditions and was assuming a bird went up, was shot and hit (possibly wounded) and was going to retrieve it. It is possible a bird after being shot or shot at would get up and fly away. Give the dog another chance.

[CherrystoneWeims]

Slightly different situation; dog is sent for a retrieve, there is no 2nd bird, but the shot bird isn't really shot and is able to fly up into a tree and is not retrievable. Do you fail the dog then? If so, what did the dog do wrong?

Total handler error in this case. In a MH test I as a handler would never send my dog out for this.

Hmm perhaps I am misreading this. If the bird gets up and is just injured and flies into the tree after it has been downed and the dog has been sent out that's a different story. I would keep the dog down and let it finish the test. If no other birds were found then I would do a callback for a retrieve.

I still don't like that the dog chased such a good flying bird though! 50 yds is a long haul.

[Don]

I too think the dog should have stopped to flush. Fail. 50 yds is a long way to chase. had the dog gone a short way and stopped, I'd give it the benifit of the doubt.

[Dave Quindt]

Master dog is sent for a retrieve of a downed Quail and almost exactly in the area the bird went down the dog "bumps" and chases after a VERY STRONG FLYING Chukar it perceives as the bird it was sent to retrieve.

So how exactly do you know what the dog "perceived"?

Based on your description, I'd pick the dog up. I'd allow some leeway at the flush of the bird for the dog to recognize that the bird flying isn't the same bird (heck, it's not the same type of bird) as the one shot. If it took the dog a few steps to stop to flush, I'd be ok. Same as if the dog leeped into the air and grabbed the chukar; I'm not going to "fault" the dog for that.

A master dog can distinguish between a quail and a chukar.

If the dog had stopped to flush, it may have given him the opportunity to scent the dead quail apparently almost at his feet.

JMO,
Dave

[snips]

Rick and I both feel like a dog should not be faulted for a gunners mistake. If the dog is sent, he is trying to retrieve a bird, if he chases it so be it. You told him to retrieve. We have both had this happen in tests and either been passed and/or flunked for the same thing. Just depends pretty much on who is judging. This is a grey area to me and one that a judge has the right to do a call back for to see if the dog can complete the work. It is not like the dog refused, there was just not a bird to retrieve. If a bird is wounded and gets up and flies, dog is expected to get it, dogs do not distinguish between a bird being hit or not, just that he is told to retrieve.....JMO

[phermes1]

Slightly different situation; dog is sent for a retrieve, there is no 2nd bird, but the shot bird isn't really shot and is able to fly up into a tree and is not retrievable. Do you fail the dog then? If so, what did the dog do wrong?

Total handler error in this case. In a MH test I as a handler would never send my dog out for this.

Hmm perhaps I am misreading this. If the bird gets up and is just injured and flies into the tree after it has been downed and the dog has been sent out that's a different story. I would keep the dog down and let it finish the test. If no other birds were found then I would do a callback for a retrieve.

I still don't like that the dog chased such a good flying bird though! 50 yds is a long haul.

Last year, I had a callback with Shooter where the gunners shot once and the bird dropped like a ROCK. There was no doubt in my mind or that of the gunners that that bird was DEAD.
So I sent him. It promptly took flight, he chased, and it landed in a tree.
The judges redid the retrieve, he completed it, and we took 2nd.

With that said - I think some of these responses are way too harsh on the dog. The last command that dog was given was to go get that bird. I would not expect the dog to anticipate there being a live bird in the same spot that the dead bird landed, and to differentiate which one should be retrieved. If the bird took flight, I would want the dog to recognize it as crippled game and attempt to retrieve it. If circumstances beyond the handler's or dog's control prevented him from completing the retrieve, I'd call for a do-over.

Just my .02.

[snips]

I think there are judges that are always looking for the neg and judges that will look to flunk someone for the slightest infraction. The judges that actually run dogs are generally the ones that understand a dogs actual capabilities. The judges that do not run dogs somehow think the dog is suppossed to know things beyond what the handler knows

[Ruffshooter]

Since the quail was shot that means there is dead bird scent and live bird scent fromthe chuckar. I would not fault the dog for not being stopping to a flush since it was sent for a retrieve. How ever what I am stating would depend on which way the wind was coming. Was the dog down wind of the downed bird. The dog still needed to retrieve the downed bird no matter what happened. Even if the wind was at the dogs back, once it got by the dead bird it still could have made the retrieve. In either case I think it would be fair for a call back.

[Buckeye_V]

I agree with Paul and Brenda.

It all depends on the judge in the saddle and how the rules are interpreted.

Hope the dog was given another chance.

[Don]

.

What was seen as I understand it, was a bird killed, a dog sent and an obvious different bird fly from the same area. The dog it appears, made no effort to stop for about 50 yds. If a dog can tell the difference between a dead quail and a live chukar, I really don't know. But I have seen many dogs track down cripples and catch them. How do they do that? Blood scent maybe? In the end a quail was shot, apearently dead, a chukar flushed, the dog chased and the handler let it. Why didn't the handler stop the dog? He/she should have been able to, it's a master dog, right? Perhaps the whole thing is handler error. But the dog failed just the same, handlers aren't graded.

It's amazing how many dogs fail hunt test's and get picked up at trials because of handler error. Should all the dog's be given another chance?

[bntsetter]

I guess it depends on if you want to see a dog pass or fail....

Personally I as a handler would have stopped the dog and then directed him to the fall of the quail.

As a judge this would be what I would have like to see happen HOWEVER if the handler was able to get the dog to retrieve the quail even AFTER chasing the chucker He would stay down. IF the dog would not retrieve the quail - He Fails. The last command the dog was sent on was FETCH.

[Buckeye_V]

Well Don, the circumstance that he describes is nearly impossible to train for. We don't know the exact circumstances. We don't know the direction of the wind, we don't know how strict the judges are. We don't know. We don't know if the handler blocked the dog's mark of the bird, or the grass did. We don't know.

If a dog is sent to fetch, he had better come back with A BIRD. Not THE bird, although this is a good idea.

I tell you what, I don't want to see a dog STF on a bird that is hit, gets knocked down and gets up and flies away. I want to see that dog do everything it can to go get that bird (so I don't have to). I don't care if it is 50 yards or more away.

Now, as fars as yelling at the dog to stop it (or whatever), if you judge that as negatively as you "would" have this situation - then they would have failed there for excessive handling/hacking. What are you going to yell? "Whoa?"

I am going to give each and every dog the benefit of the doubt. if I am not sure what I saw, then I want to see it again.


And yes,if there are odd circumstances and it happens so fats you aren't sure what you saw - then you should be giving the dog another chance. If it broke once, it's going to do it again, etc.

FWIW

[phermes1]

Enough speculation - now I want to hear what the judge's ultimate decision was!!!

[Don]

Well Buckeye, how many times do you give the dog the benefit of the doubt? From what I read here, the dog shouldn't have chased. If I allow the dog the benefit of the doubt, and I certainly might, then the handler needs to show me a finished dog, he didn't. Certainly the handler can tell the difference between a quail and a chukar and should have been able to stop his finished dog. Maybe he could have too but, he chose to allow the dog to chase a bird he knew was not the shot bird in hopes it would run it down for a retrieve. The dog stopped. The shot quail is still laying on the ground. Now if you allow that the dog thought the flushed bird was the shot bird, the dog should have brought back the bird. But if the handler calls a whoa command on the dog and even pulls it back in and re-sends it, I buy that. None of that happened. The handler took a chance on his dog running down what he had to know was the wrong bird and lost. As for the dog, it probably didn't care if it failed or passed anyway. So you want to give the handler another chance to make his dog look good after he already blew it.

So 1 + 1 = 3. Alright! You tried so we're gonna pass you any way. Thanks for showing up.

[Don]

I think the thing you guy's are missing here is that it's the handlers responsibility to show his dog. The handler made a bad choice. He didn't show his dog well.

[WildRose]

While running Mason-Dixon GSPC's Hunt Test this weekend we had some rather "odd scenarios" play out that led to NQ's for some dogs and worked to the favor of others, which led to discussions amongst some of the more experienced there as to how they would Judge the situation and/or how they would handle in the situation. Then I see the post here on delayed chase and divided find and wonder if we couldn't all benefit as Handlers and Judges by taking turns posting "odd situations" that may come up in the field during a Trial or Test.

Anyone game?

I'll start with an "easy" one:

Master dog is sent for a retrieve of a downed Quail and almost exactly in the area the bird went down the dog "bumps" and chases after a VERY STRONG FLYING Chukar it perceives as the bird it was sent to retrieve.

How do you as a handler control the situation?
How do you as a Judge control/Judge the situation?

These may require more detail that we will have to work out, but I think this might be a great and long lived topic that ALL could benefit from and enjoy.

The dog was sent for a retrieve, no fault on the dog's part that a second bird was there and flew. In a hunting situation on covey birds this is not uncommon at all, and wounded birds can, will, and do often fly again (with varying levels of efficiency) so the dog was doing what was right.

If I were judging I would have had the handler call the dog back in and order him to make another attempt to retrieve the actual downed bird. Failing to do so would not be master level work.

I actually had two very similar situations at the GDCH this year. I was unaware than when I flushed the bird (my back to the dog) another bird had flown which was also behind me which went down pretty hard and fast on the shot of the bird I actually flushed. When I released him for the retrieve he retrieved the unshot bird. The judges correctly credited him with the retrieve. When I figured out what had happened I sent him for the shot bird and he retrieved it as well.

In the other the dog went for the retrieve, bird popped witnin maybe five feet of where the bird went dow. Dog chased twenty yards or so then broke off and stopped and looked at me. I called him back, sent him again for the dead bird and he made a fine retrieve. Judges credited him there with good work. CR

[original mngsp]

I think the thing you guy's are missing here is that it's the handlers responsibility to show his dog. The handler made a bad choice. He didn't show his dog well.

Don, Bingo!! right on the money. I most cases handlers in the MH test have lost the concept of "showing the judges a Master dog" and instead try to "beat the test"

Here is an excerpt from the AKC Hunt Test Rule Book

"Some unusual situations can occur in the retrieve.
For instance, the gunner fires a shot and the bird goes
down. When the dog is sent for the retrieve, the bird
flies away. Some Judges say that if a command is given
to retrieve, the dog must come back with the bird or
the Retrieving score will be 0. In this circumstance, the
attempt should not be scored and the Judges should
give a dog a chance to retrieve another bird. The dog
can continue on course for another find, or a callback
could be used. Two Official Gunners must be used
whenever a dog is called back to retrieve.
Another situation which can occur is the appearance
of a second live bird which pops up in the general vicinity
of a downed bird. The dog is sent to retrieve a
downed bird and either grabs or chases the second
bird. Judges should not score the dog lower in
Retrieving for this action and should score the dog on
its retrieve if it returns with the bird. If the dog catches
the bird and does not make an acceptable retrieve, it
should be scored lower in Retrieving."

According to this we put down another bird and let the dog attempt another retrieve. I'm ok doing this as a judge because it is spelled out in black and white. Do I agree, not entirely.

If this was a FT retrieve callback I would expect the dog to stop to flush. If he did that, give him another attempt at the retrieve. If he chased, sorry game over you don't deserve any championship points.

[dan v]

My reply, without reading past the first post.

AKC guideline clearly state that the retrieve is, for lack of a better term, polluted. The dog should not be penalized for 1) not stopping at the flush of the bird, and 2) not making the retrieve.

If that was the dogs only opportunity for a retrieve, then a callback for retrieve is required.

[AHGSP]

Enough speculation - now I want to hear what the judge's ultimate decision was!!!

Sorry! Just got back to the puter!

You had it right the first time Paul. The Judges are both experienced in Trials and went with the idea that the dog had a fudged situation and gave it a second opportunity for a retrieve further down field. The dog was upwind of the birds, so it went to the retrieve on it's mark with no scenting advantage. The handler did react, albeit very slowly and called the dog off and brought it back in. I can say that I think everyone in the field was caught off guard by the whole scenario and it was obvious in the handlers response to his dog taking chase of the Chukar. He was, I believe, actually ready to pick his dog up, but the Judges chose to give the dog a 2nd opportunity.
Something also to consider: This dog hadn't done mediocre work through the course, but instead had performed at an excellent level in one screwy situation after another and recovered from each one with style and grace.

1st situation for this dog was that it's bracemate didn't back on the back course, came in and stole point, then busted point and proceeded to chase the bird to Tim-buc-too......dog stood.
2nd situation happened when he pointed a Phez and it took off running right into one of the gunners and launched straight up 60 feet, gunner mounted and Judge stopped the shot for safety reasons. The bird proceeded to fly over 3 fields, yet the dog stood.
3rd situation happened when the dog was released from the previous Phez, ran down field about 20 yards and a Phez from a previous brace that had been cruising up through the sorghum busted up and the dog gave a perfect STF and stood until released.
4th situation was the above mentioned retrieve.
To finish this dogs bad streak of situations and put the nail in the coffin, when the dog was sent down field for another find, the dog handled the bird perfectly yet again, but the gunner in an attempt to put an end to the bad streak this dog was having was fast on the shot and planted the wad in the birds backside, seriously destroying the bird. Dog went for the retrieve upon release, picked up the bird and carried it halfway back before spitting it and refusing to pick it up again. The bird was literally 2 wings, a ribcage and a wad in the a$$. Dog failed at this point after otherwise spectacular work.

[AHGSP]

Another Scenario:
Dog points bracemate backs, bird flushed and shot, pointing dog steady to fall, backing dog breaks at the shot, pointing dog sent for retrieve as the backing dog is coming by, backing dog beats pointing dog to the bird, pointing dog fails for no retrieve.
JMO

Chip

Next scenario?

[phermes1]

If this was a FT retrieve callback I would expect the dog to stop to flush. If he did that, give him another attempt at the retrieve. If he chased, sorry game over you don't deserve any championship points.

Then you would have made a bad call as the rules clearly state that a dog is not to be penalized for such an action.

[phermes1]

Enough speculation - now I want to hear what the judge's ultimate decision was!!!

Sorry! Just got back to the puter!

You had it right the first time Paul. The Judges are both experienced in Trials and went with the idea that the dog had a fudged situation and gave it a second opportunity for a retrieve further down field. The dog was upwind of the birds, so it went to the retrieve on it's mark with no scenting advantage. The handler did react, albeit very slowly and called the dog off and brought it back in. I can say that I think everyone in the field was caught off guard by the whole scenario and it was obvious in the handlers response to his dog taking chase of the Chukar. He was, I believe, actually ready to pick his dog up, but the Judges chose to give the dog a 2nd opportunity.
Something also to consider: This dog hadn't done mediocre work through the course, but instead had performed at an excellent level in one screwy situation after another and recovered from each one with style and grace.

1st situation for this dog was that it's bracemate didn't back on the back course, came in and stole point, then busted point and proceeded to chase the bird to Tim-buc-too......dog stood.
2nd situation happened when he pointed a Phez and it took off running right into one of the gunners and launched straight up 60 feet, gunner mounted and Judge stopped the shot for safety reasons. The bird proceeded to fly over 3 fields, yet the dog stood.
3rd situation happened when the dog was released from the previous Phez, ran down field about 20 yards and a Phez from a previous brace that had been cruising up through the sorghum busted up and the dog gave a perfect STF and stood until released.
4th situation was the above mentioned retrieve.
To finish this dogs bad streak of situations and put the nail in the coffin, when the dog was sent down field for another find, the dog handled the bird perfectly yet again, but the gunner in an attempt to put an end to the bad streak this dog was having was fast on the shot and planted the wad in the birds backside, seriously destroying the bird. Dog went for the retrieve upon release, picked up the bird and carried it halfway back before spitting it and refusing to pick it up again. The bird was literally 2 wings, a ribcage and a wad in the a$$. Dog failed at this point after otherwise spectacular work.

Sounds like the gods just didn't want that dog to pass that day!!
Glad to hear the judges did the right thing.

[CherrystoneWeims]

Dog points bracemate backs, bird flushed and shot, pointing dog steady to fall, backing dog breaks at the shot, pointing dog sent for retrieve as the backing dog is coming by, backing dog beats pointing dog to the bird, pointing dog fails for no retrieve.

The pointing dog should not be picked up. A call back for a retrieve is needed for the scenario. The backing dog is of course picked up.

[AHGSP]

Tell my dog to go kick the other dogs arse and get me my bird! LOL
Just kidding! No need for a dog fight!

Were I the Handler, I hopefully would have seen that the backing dog had broke before sending for the retrieve, as I would not release my dog immediately without having demonstrated my dog was steady to release. However, had I not, I've done committed my dog and laid myself and my dog at the Judges mercy. Hope they are not Judges that feel that once the dog is sent for a retrieve, it MUST retrieve a bird no matter the circumstance.

Were I the Judge, Backing dog gets picked up and we move down field to give the Pointing dog another opportunity to work a bird and retrieve, or do a callback.

[phermes1]

Assuming the handler sent his dog without realizing the backing dog had broke, then circumstances beyond either the handler's or dog's control prevented it from completing the retrieve. Do-over.

[Buckeye_V]

Judges did the right thing in my purely humble and obiviously a-kilter opinion

[dan v]

Judges always need to keep inthe back of their mind just how man-made (contrived) a HT is. Wild birds don't act like pen birds, that affects things like delayed chase, gunners having to fight off attack quail so they can get a shot, birds walking towards dogs.

A big dose of common sense is required.

Dan

[Don]

No brainer. First the backing dog broke, next it interfered with the pointing dog's retrieve. Backing dog gone and call back if necessary for retrieve on the pointing dog.

[WildRose]

Easy call. The dog must come back with a bird only if the opportunity is not tainted or interfered with.

Pick up the breaking dog, give the retrieving dog another chance.

Some judges seem to approach every situation as an opportunity for the dog to fail. Good judges approach every situation as an opportunity for the dog to pass.

It doesn't take long to figure out which kind of judge you have that day. CR

[lvrgsp]

And now for the Decision............

Bruce,
Exactly right, I did not see the backing dog break, as I sen Jack in the Backing dog had a full run on him got the bird first, judges picked the backing dog up and told me to proceed on to work another bird, we did not have any other bird work, no call back. When I saw the score sheet with a failed retrieve and asked the judges if we were to have a call back after all the braces ran, they said no he broke on the shot, I explained this as did the other handler that he stood through the fall and displayed steadiness, still a no go. I brought up the fact that they told me to continue on in the field for the opportunity to find another bird, they had no answer fo me. Strange I thought.

Chip

[CherrystoneWeims]

When I saw the score sheet with a failed retrieve

????? So did they expect your dog to snatch the bird from the other dog's mouth possibly starting a fight????

Bad call. I would have done a call back for a retrieve If you hadn't had a chance to work another bird to do the retrieve.

[AHGSP]

Who's next?

Something tough to think on!

[Don]

Hey Chip that sounds like they had no reason not to give your dog a look but found an easy way out. Otherwise why did they leave it down in the first place? They left it down because they had no good reason to pick it up! I absolutely deplored judges that couldn't give an answer for their findings. They looked for reasons not to use dogs to avoid having to make knowledgeable decissions, which they couldn't!

Even if the decission might be viewed as wrong, you should be able to explain why you made it. "That's just the way I saw it". is no answer!

[AHGSP]

This should be an interesting one:

Walking Trial, Open Gun Dog, 1 is a FC and 1 is Broke, but in his 1st OGD Stake. Last brace of 10 braces.

Young dog goes down field 600 yards from the break away and has a find, 1 Judge calls it standing, Handler has to walk across the field 200 yards to get to the dog, dog stands, Handler works the bird and the dog handles to perfection. FC has gone around the corner and is out of sight into the next field. Handler sends young dog again and it goes out, around the corner and 60 yards back down the next edge stands a bird. Same Judge sees the dog through the 30 foot wide woods row and again calls the young dog standing. As the handler is getting up to the corner he sees the FC come across field to the edge the young dog is standing on and disappear. As the handler of the young dog rounds the corner, he sees the FC backing, its handler standing beside it and then to his amazement, sees the handler release/tap out the FC from honor, at which it promptly runs in and steals point. Judge that called it standing, unknown to Handlers or other Judge, sees this happen through the tree row from atop of their horse. The FC Handler, unaware that they were seen by Judge or Handler ask the young dogs Handler, "How do you want to handle this?"

As the Handler of the young dog, how do you handle the situation? You've seen the other handler purposefully release the dog from honor, no question and saw the FC steal point!
As the Judge that has seen the infraction, how do you handle the situation?

[phermes1]

As the judge, easy call - FC gets his butt picked up asap.

As the handler, that's a bit tougher; telling the judge doesn't accomplish much; he can't take MY word for it if he didn't see it personally.
Quite frankly, if I saw my bracemate do that, I'd be pretty pissed. If he then had the balls to ask me how "I wanted to handle it", I'd probably respond, "Well, your dog just stole point, so you tell me." Loud enough for the judge to hear. The other handler will surely play dumb and certainly won't pick his dog up, but I'd put it out there anyway
I would then pray that the judge was close enough to see what happened, because otherwise I'm SOL.

[bntsetter]

As the handler - I act as if my dog was backing and let the FC handler work the bird. I would also be sure to point out the location of my dog to the judges during the rest of the course. I already have clean bird work and now a back so I come out looking pretty good after all I have a young dog running with a FC.

As a Judge I tell the FC handler to pick-up his dog. I then confer with my other judge and tell him what I have seen. Further more I would then have a little talk with the FC handler after the brace was done and Keep a VERY close eye on any future dogs he ran.

[WildRose]

Haven't had this happen when judging yet (that I've seen) but I have had it happen as a handler. I watched a "local pro" twice handle his dog in front of my dog which was standing and call point on the same brace. As a handler all I could do is grit my teeth and work it as a back.

As a judge, to my way of thinking is the height of unsportsmanlike conduct, and conduct which reflects poorly on the sport. I would immediately pick his dog up and order him off of my course. I would then inform the field trial chairman of the misconduct and have it written up.

CR

[CherrystoneWeims]

I would probably handle the situation just like WildRose.

[parshal]

Here are two good situations to discuss. Both are MH.

First, a dog points a warm, dead bird. Per judges request, the handler picks up the bird, tosses it, shoots and heels the dog away. That's his only find in the field. Did he go birdless?

Second, a dog points. The handler walks in for the flush and no bird. The handler relocates the dog and she catwalks forward just as both judges, the handler and bracemate's handler see the quail walk out of the cover directly in front of the dog and walk across open dirt into cover on the other side. The dog does not see the bird. The dog tracks the quail through the cover, over the bare dirt into the cover on the side when the quail wild flushes. The dog stops to flush. The dog not produce another bird in the field. Should the dog be called back for a retrieve or did the dog go birdless?

[Don]

This should be an interesting one:

Walking Trial, Open Gun Dog, 1 is a FC and 1 is Broke, but in his 1st OGD Stake. Last brace of 10 braces.

Young dog goes down field 600 yards from the break away and has a find, 1 Judge calls it standing, Handler has to walk across the field 200 yards to get to the dog, dog stands, Handler works the bird and the dog handles to perfection. FC has gone around the corner and is out of sight into the next field. Handler sends young dog again and it goes out, around the corner and 60 yards back down the next edge stands a bird. Same Judge sees the dog through the 30 foot wide woods row and again calls the young dog standing. As the handler is getting up to the corner he sees the FC come across field to the edge the young dog is standing on and disappear. As the handler of the young dog rounds the corner, he sees the FC backing, its handler standing beside it and then to his amazement, sees the handler release/tap out the FC from honor, at which it promptly runs in and steals point. Judge that called it standing, unknown to Handlers or other Judge, sees this happen through the tree row from atop of their horse. The FC Handler, unaware that they were seen by Judge or Handler ask the young dogs Handler, "How do you want to handle this?"

As the Handler of the young dog, how do you handle the situation? You've seen the other handler purposefully release the dog from honor, no question and saw the FC steal point!
As the Judge that has seen the infraction, how do you handle the situation?

Where's the second judge thru all this? How is the second handler in position the release his dog with a tap if no judge is around? I don't see anyway the second judge could have missed this. I've seen some judges do some awfully brazen stuff but nothing like this! Handlers are to stay with the judge; this just can't happen.

[WildRose]

Dang Parshal!

Scenario one... by the strictest interpretation of the rules the dog has gone birdless. However how do we know the bird didn't expire while the dog was on point? We don't!

Being a very positive judge I would probably call the dog back for a point and retrieve.

Scenario two... This is not an at all uncommon occurance when hunting wild birds. There is absolutely nothing the dog could have done in this situation for it to work out any better. He did locate and point a bird so he has not gone birdless. If I'm really sure the bird flushed through no fault of the dog or handler (such as handler moving with dog on relocation and handler flushes bird inadvertantly) the dog would get called back for a retrieve. CR

[WildRose]

Where's the second judge thru all this? How is the second handler in position the release his dog with a tap if no judge is around? I don't see anyway the second judge could have missed this. I've seen some judges do some awfully brazen stuff but nothing like this! Handlers are to stay with the judge; this just can't happen.

Don as brushy as some of the places I've run dogs are I can actually see this happening as well as the scene I laid out.

Sometimes as a judge in order to get the best view of the situation you have to ride around the brush to get in position, and you just can't see everything when there are lots of trees and brush.

Whenever possible when I'm judging and my partner and I are both watching the same scenario I will separate myself from the other judge so that we have two different angles to watch from as things develop. If both are right together then you might as well only have one judge. CR