Ok folks, I have done a search on the forum and read many threads concerning "gun shyness" and have seen many different ideas. Some I agree with, others I am not so sure about. Anyway here is my scenario.
I have a 11 month old Brittany being worked in Nebraska. The trainer called me today and said he was concerned that she was gun "sensitive" but not gun shy. I asked what the difference was and he said that when the blanks were shot, she would break off the chase of the flushed bird and circle back to him, after a couple of minutes (I asked for clarification and he said less then 5 minutes every time) she would return to hunting and would flush/chase birds. Today the difference was she hestitated like she was waiting for the shot before she broke for the bird. He did not shoot when he saw her wait, but she did this consistently for 3 or 4 birds.
My question is this, he is implying that this will be a long process to fix. I tend to agree even though I have not seen it first hand. His point is that I should pick her up and try to work through this at home by backing up to some basics, before she left I had shot some blanks while she running in a large field of ours, she was over 70 yards away, she did turn and come to me, but did not act scared or spooked (i.e., tail tucked, cowering). I would continue to walk like nothing happened and she would go back to running around. What would be the "basics"? I have trained horses to take to gun fire, but I do not have access to birds easily. Should I leave her there and let him continue to work her, or bring her home? If I bring her home where should I start? His logic in me working her is simply my cost. If this is a long term fix, then I might have more money in her then it is worth, whatever that is. The cost of leaving her is not an issue to me. One other complicating issue is I have bought another pup, a GSP. My wife and kids love the Britt, so should I bring her back, work her when I can, see what happens, and send the GSP out when it gets older or leave her, spend the money and hope it works out.
Thanks in advance, sorry for the long post, but it has been a long afternoon since talking to him.
Gun "sensitive" question
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tlsgcs
Gun "sensitive" question
Last edited by tlsgcs on Tue Sep 25, 2007 5:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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gonehuntin'
- GDF Junkie
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I don't want to insult your choice of trainers, but this is no job for an amature. If I was a trainer and I had a gun-sensitive dog, I would virtually insist that the dog be with me until the problem is corrected or overcome. I would even have some doubts about this trainer if he suggested you take her home to work with. This problem is like bird eating, bolting, freezing etc.; it generally takes a pro to correct it.
LIFE WITHOUT BIRD DOGS AND FLY RODS REALLY ISN'T LIFE AT ALL.
I was impressed that the trainer suggested it might get expensive and was giving the customer the option of taking her home before he spent a slug of money.
Ezzy
Ezzy
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207
It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!
Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207
It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!
Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.
I have a 7 year old Dalmation/English Pointer Combo who is noise sensitive. She gets very "Scared" when a thunderstorm approaches and around the 4th of July. However, I was able to gunbreak this dog and am now in the process of continuing her training.
I first put her in a field to train when she was 7 years old. Her first intro to a blank pistol sent her running back to the car with her tail between her legs. I believe the tone of a blank pistol was too sharp for her. I switched her training to a 20ga. I started walking her in the field to get her in a hunting mode and then had my wife or another training partner fire a round from a 20ga some 300 yards away with the barrell pointed away from us, then with the barrel pointed paralell to our direction. The key was to get her into a hunting mode.
When we started going closer I would make sure that she was charged up on birds. After 14 weeks I was able to fire over her when a bird was flushed from a mannual launcher.
It maybe a little more expensive but training with a .410 or a 20ga might be a little softer. But it will be a little softer on the dogs ears.
When we were training if I got a negative reaction from something I would stop the training immediately and then take the dog for a "Walk" in the field. Always leaving the field on a positive note.
When my training partner was doing his training with his dog I would have the dog out of her crate and into the field a distance away from them looking for a negative reaction from a gunshot coming from some where else. But the dog was always in a hunting mode.
She loved being out in the field running around and "Hunting" so I was trying to associate the sound of gunfire with something she loved to do.
She has a long way to go, it is difficult to train a 7 yr old dog, but she is a wonderful animal and has a GREAT nose for birds. But she is gunbroke
Hope this helps
Reech
I first put her in a field to train when she was 7 years old. Her first intro to a blank pistol sent her running back to the car with her tail between her legs. I believe the tone of a blank pistol was too sharp for her. I switched her training to a 20ga. I started walking her in the field to get her in a hunting mode and then had my wife or another training partner fire a round from a 20ga some 300 yards away with the barrell pointed away from us, then with the barrel pointed paralell to our direction. The key was to get her into a hunting mode.
When we started going closer I would make sure that she was charged up on birds. After 14 weeks I was able to fire over her when a bird was flushed from a mannual launcher.
It maybe a little more expensive but training with a .410 or a 20ga might be a little softer. But it will be a little softer on the dogs ears.
When we were training if I got a negative reaction from something I would stop the training immediately and then take the dog for a "Walk" in the field. Always leaving the field on a positive note.
When my training partner was doing his training with his dog I would have the dog out of her crate and into the field a distance away from them looking for a negative reaction from a gunshot coming from some where else. But the dog was always in a hunting mode.
She loved being out in the field running around and "Hunting" so I was trying to associate the sound of gunfire with something she loved to do.
She has a long way to go, it is difficult to train a 7 yr old dog, but she is a wonderful animal and has a GREAT nose for birds. But she is gunbroke
Hope this helps
Reech
Stop the blanks and just let her get birdy as heck, then the next time you shoot around her make a bird fall, blank guns can make the problem worse on a borderline dog.
You have to make the connection between the bird falling and the shot clearer in her mind.
I've corrected several dogs that were very gun shy but had good prey drives with squirells and a pellet rifle. All dogs like to chase squirells if encouraged.
Its pretty simple if you live in a area that has squirells just take the dog to that area and sit at the base of a tree with the dog betweeen your knees on a slip rope so shes easy to release let her watch the squirells then when your sure she wants to chase let her and encourage her after a few time of this get yourself a powerful pellet rifle put a scope on it and shoot the squirell out of the tree for her. one shot per squirell.
Do that for a week or so everyday that you can until you are sure she understands that the squirell is going to fall when the pellet rifle is shot.
next when she is really into it do the same with a litely loaded twelve gage with number 4s you want the sound low but big shot to kill the squirell. This is important you can only shoot once and the squirell needs to fall that is the moment where the fall and her reved up prey drive is going to overcome her fear.
One shes really into that its simple to move back to birds and when you do you have to make sure that first shot kills a bird.
I know it sounds unorthadox but I've cured a couple dogs with this method that were so gun shy the mere sight a a gun would make them run back to the truck.
Once you quit hunting the squirells and start hunting birds they learn on their own that your after birds not squirells although they will sometimes still tree them for a couple years just ignore it call them off and continue hunting without any fanfare. Most of my hunting is done on the prairie where squirells are kind of rare.
You have to make the connection between the bird falling and the shot clearer in her mind.
I've corrected several dogs that were very gun shy but had good prey drives with squirells and a pellet rifle. All dogs like to chase squirells if encouraged.
Its pretty simple if you live in a area that has squirells just take the dog to that area and sit at the base of a tree with the dog betweeen your knees on a slip rope so shes easy to release let her watch the squirells then when your sure she wants to chase let her and encourage her after a few time of this get yourself a powerful pellet rifle put a scope on it and shoot the squirell out of the tree for her. one shot per squirell.
Do that for a week or so everyday that you can until you are sure she understands that the squirell is going to fall when the pellet rifle is shot.
next when she is really into it do the same with a litely loaded twelve gage with number 4s you want the sound low but big shot to kill the squirell. This is important you can only shoot once and the squirell needs to fall that is the moment where the fall and her reved up prey drive is going to overcome her fear.
One shes really into that its simple to move back to birds and when you do you have to make sure that first shot kills a bird.
I know it sounds unorthadox but I've cured a couple dogs with this method that were so gun shy the mere sight a a gun would make them run back to the truck.
Once you quit hunting the squirells and start hunting birds they learn on their own that your after birds not squirells although they will sometimes still tree them for a couple years just ignore it call them off and continue hunting without any fanfare. Most of my hunting is done on the prairie where squirells are kind of rare.
currently two shorthairs, four english pointers, one Brittany, one SPRINGER a chihuahua and a min pin lol
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tlsgcs
Thanks for the replies so far. Still not sure what I am going to do, I agree with getting/keeping her as birdy as possible, and I like the idea of a reward for the chase (squirrel idea) which I could do at home.
When I talked with the trainer today he described her as hesitiant, not really scared, but definitely not sure about the shot. He commented that she also does it if he claps his hands, so I guess it is more that the noise is bothering her.
Any other ideas or comments are welcome.
When I talked with the trainer today he described her as hesitiant, not really scared, but definitely not sure about the shot. He commented that she also does it if he claps his hands, so I guess it is more that the noise is bothering her.
Any other ideas or comments are welcome.
You have to use prey drive to fix it and the three sources for prey drive are,
retrieveing - most brits aren't real natural strong retrievers,( chasing a bumper will work well for this purpose with labs)
wild birds- this would be best ( for alot of reasons) if you have them where ever you live
Squirells work well because they are plentiful in most areas, dogs like to chase them, and you can control them a little because they are treed.
One of these three drives needs to be developed so the dog is very enthusiastic about the game and its prey drive is upped to a level that the gun can be introduced properly without spooking the dog again.
If you can't do any of the above go to North Dakota or south Dakota where there are tons of phez and spend a week letting her point them and keep flushing them for her, let her break on the flush. After three consecutive days of that take your gun along and kill one for her.
But make sure shes really pumped up about the birds first take the three days at least this would be atraining trip not just a hunting trip. ANd go by youself or with one friend one shot each bird no multiple shots.
retrieveing - most brits aren't real natural strong retrievers,( chasing a bumper will work well for this purpose with labs)
wild birds- this would be best ( for alot of reasons) if you have them where ever you live
Squirells work well because they are plentiful in most areas, dogs like to chase them, and you can control them a little because they are treed.
One of these three drives needs to be developed so the dog is very enthusiastic about the game and its prey drive is upped to a level that the gun can be introduced properly without spooking the dog again.
If you can't do any of the above go to North Dakota or south Dakota where there are tons of phez and spend a week letting her point them and keep flushing them for her, let her break on the flush. After three consecutive days of that take your gun along and kill one for her.
But make sure shes really pumped up about the birds first take the three days at least this would be atraining trip not just a hunting trip. ANd go by youself or with one friend one shot each bird no multiple shots.
currently two shorthairs, four english pointers, one Brittany, one SPRINGER a chihuahua and a min pin lol
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tlsgcs
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annacarrig
The late great Keith Erlandson once wrote that true gun shyness was quite rare but gun nervousness was much more common.His cure was to have someonefire a shot at a distance while the handler gave a reward which is along the lines of the advice you have been given.A mistake which both amatuer and professional trainers make is to want to correct a fault straight away where sense would dictate to walk away and as your trainer suggested go back to basics.Most dogs if they build up a head of steam on game will ignore all else and this is the time to re-introduce shot.The classic example is the young spaniel in full chase after a rabbit,little if anything will deter him from his objective.
The 22 starter pistol has a sharp crack and I question its use in training,firing it inside a game bag will lessen this effect.Your dog maybe a little soft but does not sound neurotic,it will come good in the end.
The 22 starter pistol has a sharp crack and I question its use in training,firing it inside a game bag will lessen this effect.Your dog maybe a little soft but does not sound neurotic,it will come good in the end.
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WildRose
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From the way you describe the situation there' s not much to worry about long term.
I would just continue doing what I'm doing, (presuming we have good, strong, Long flying birds) and let the dog get out farther before the shot is fired.
Whe you reach a distance that the dog no longer reacts to you have the "comfort zone" established. You then simply try reducing the distance at which you fire on each successive flush. Usually takes nor more than two or three sessions to solve this.
As soon as the dog is doing fine and staying bold, I would then kill a bird for her each time she "did it right" to further associate the gunfire with something positive and exciting. CR
I would just continue doing what I'm doing, (presuming we have good, strong, Long flying birds) and let the dog get out farther before the shot is fired.
Whe you reach a distance that the dog no longer reacts to you have the "comfort zone" established. You then simply try reducing the distance at which you fire on each successive flush. Usually takes nor more than two or three sessions to solve this.
As soon as the dog is doing fine and staying bold, I would then kill a bird for her each time she "did it right" to further associate the gunfire with something positive and exciting. CR
There's a reason I like dogs better'n people
All the advice here is good. If I were you I'd do just as you're going to do, leave her with the trainer. He's seen this before and has the time/facilities to work her through it. Gun sensitivity is definitely different than gun shyness. NAVHDA makes a differentiation on their Natural Ability scorecard for both of those. A gun sensitive dog can become gun shy if care is not taken. The biggest step is realizing that it's there and dealing with it. You've already done that. I'm sure that she will be fine.
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tlsgcs
Quick update on my Brittany that had the gun shyness problem. I went to Nebraska to pick her up and hunt for three days. Even though it was warm and birds were running we got our limit 2 of 3 days and she did fantastic. We hunted her hard for those 3 days and she made me proud.
I want to send a big thank you to Dale and Kris Taylor with Premier Gundogs for fixing a problem I caused. These are two of the most down to earth plain good people I have ever had the pleasure of knowing.
I want to send a big thank you to Dale and Kris Taylor with Premier Gundogs for fixing a problem I caused. These are two of the most down to earth plain good people I have ever had the pleasure of knowing.