NAVHDA UT Duck search-help?

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Donnerhund GWP
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Location: Weber County UT

NAVHDA UT Duck search-help?

Post by Donnerhund GWP » Sun Sep 09, 2007 7:33 pm

OK, I ran my 4.5 Yr GWP in UT today. She was fantastic in everything but the duck search. She got a 2 in duck search because she came back to heel and had to be re-sent twice. the seacrch itself was very good, but she returns to be redirected if she isn't successful after a few minutes. She has been doing well in training sessions, expanding and finding the duck(s) every time. I had the same experience last year.
We walked away with a respectable 191, but a prize III because of the 2 in search for duck. I'm a little frustrated by this particularly because she does so well in everything else.
So, what can I do to make her stay out searching longer?
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SwitchGrassWPG
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Post by SwitchGrassWPG » Mon Sep 10, 2007 4:54 am

Here is a good technique for a member of our club.

Ducks obviously work best but pigeons would work in a pinch (flight feathers pulled completly or shackled). Step one is extremely important and is something that can be started on land but needs to be completed at the water.

DUCK SEARCH TRAINING STEP 1 - 4

Step One:
Bumper pile - drive dog out to "fetch" all bumpers

Step Two:
1st duck Duck thrown into water straight across (Shown to dog) Helper in sight
2nd duck Duck thrown into water straight across (Shown to dog) Helper in sight

Step Three:
1st duck Duck thrown into cover straight across (Shown to dog) Helper in sight
2nd duck Duck thrown into cover straight across (Shown to dog) Helper in sight

Step Four:
Session -1
1st duck Duck thrown into cover straight across (Shown to dog) Helper in sight
2nd duck Duck thrown into cover straight across (Not shown to dog) Helper in sight
3rd duck Duck thrown into cover straight across (Not shown to dog) Helper in sight

Session -2
1st duck Duck thrown into cover straight across (Shown to dog) Helper in sight
2nd duck Duck thrown into cover straight across (Not shown to dog) Helper in sight
3rd duck Duck thrown into cover straight across (Not shown to dog) Helper in sight

Session -3
1st duck Duck thrown into cover straight across (Not shown to dog) Helper in sight
2nd duck Duck thrown into cover straight across (Not shown to dog) Helper in sight
3rd duck Duck thrown into cover straight across (Not shown to dog) Helper in sight

DUCK SEARCH TRAINING STEP 5 - 6
Step Five:
Session -1
1st duck Duck thrown into cover straight across (Not shown to dog) Helper in sight
2nd duck Duck thrown into cover straight across (Not shown to dog) Helper hidden
3rd duck Duck thrown into cover straight across (Not shown to dog) Helper hidden

Session -2
1st duck Duck thrown into cover straight across (Not shown to dog) Helper hidden
2nd duck Duck thrown into cover straight across (Not shown to dog) Helper hidden
3rd duck Duck thrown into cover straight across (Not shown to dog) Helper hidden

Step Six:
Session -1
1st duck Duck thrown into cover straight across (Not shown to dog) Helper hidden
2nd duck 10 yards down wind of first duck (Not shown to dog) Helper hidden
3rd duck 10 yards up wind of first duck (Not shown to dog) Helper hidden

Session -2
1st duck Duck thrown into cover straight across (Not shown to dog) Helper hidden
2nd duck 20 yards down wind of first duck (Not shown to dog) Helper hidden
3rd duck 20 yards up wind of first duck (Not shown to dog) Helper hidden

Session - 3
1st duck Duck thrown into cover straight across (Not shown to dog) Helper hidden
2nd duck 30 yards down wind of first duck (Not shown to dog) Helper hidden
3rd duck 30 yards up wind of first duck (Not shown to dog) Helper hidden

Session - 4
1st duck Duck thrown into cover straight across (Not shown to dog) Helper hidden
2nd duck 40 yards down wind of first duck (Not shown to dog) Helper hidden
3rd duck 40 yards up wind of first duck (Not shown to dog) Helper hidden
Only thing worse than a bad dog is no dog at all...

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adogslife
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Post by adogslife » Mon Sep 10, 2007 5:25 am

Dogs that do best in water searches are those who have strong drive,are independant and bold. These characteristics keep the dog out there.

You need to work on your dog not needing you and feeling confident.
Work on searches with ducks that are difficult to catch and never say a word to your dog. Just let him be out there chasing and thinking.Initially, make finding the duck easy.After a few chases that drive the dog's desire wild,make finding the duck more of a challenge.Putting several live ducks out would be ideal.Don't worry about manner of retreive at this time. All you want to accomplish is getting the dog to be out there,alone, not looking for direction.

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Ruffshooter
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Post by Ruffshooter » Mon Sep 10, 2007 6:46 am

I have had a similar problem. I tried something that is kind of expensive and your dog has to want to be out there. It also needs the drills stated above. But this test is to show the dogs desire and independece to find wounded ducks.

First and most important your dog needs to be confident and independent.

First I always start with the duck chase and always try to get the duck shot so pup can get a retrieve.
Second, I will put my inoteck pheasant lauchers (2) out on some humock in the water or you could put it on a little float.

Have some one in the canoe to throw the chase duck where the dog can see it go down. Make sure they are away from you and don't come back to you. Other side. Pull the primary feathers on one side only so it cannot fly.

send dog, dog chases till gets it or starts to give up or looses the duck, When the dog is near one of the launchers and facing or down wind of it launch one of the ducks, this should draw him out further. If you have

Another way is to seed the water with ducks just swiming around. Some folks use dead ducks to seed but there is much more excitement for the dog with live ducks and is not so canned.

This has worked for me. It takes some time to set up and you need to go over everything in your mind. Put a flag you can see at your launchers so you know where they are and you hit the right button.
The best part of training is seeing the light come on in your little prot'eg'e.

Rick

PAHunter

Post by PAHunter » Mon Sep 10, 2007 10:02 am

I use the same general method the Rick was talking about.
Over several training sessions I use a canoe and plant 4 to 6 ducks in a pond covered with lilly pads. I start with the birds in close then each session I move them progressively further away. When you start out make sure you send the dog from down wind. I usually only send the dog to retrieve one or two ducks early in traing. If you use this technique of a period of time the searches longer and further out. Don't let the dog run the bank from the sending locating keep correcting and resending.

Good luck

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Post by Vman » Mon Sep 10, 2007 10:16 am

The advice given so far is all sound. One thing I would like to add is how far does the dog range in the field? Too many handlers want to keep the dog in close, 40-80 yards. The dog can get a 4 in the field and never get out past 50 yards if the dog is busy. but you take that dog to the water and because it is so used to being relatively close in the field they are afraid they are doing somthing wrong by going WAY out. So they come back and check in just like in the field.
You watch a 4 duck search or a dog that really tears up the water, and you will see the same attitude in the field.
You watch a dog in the field that never really runs or gets out and you will see a poor duck search also.
Independence with a large dose of desire = 4 in duck search everytime.
Just somthing to think about.

parshal
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Post by parshal » Tue Sep 11, 2007 11:02 am

Until my most recent dog I trained just as Jay described. It worked for my PP and not so well with my GWP. With the GSP I changed things slightly. I used a boat. I never, ever, let him see a duck thrown. I ran pile drills first on land. Then, I planted a pile of taped ducks directly across 40 yards of open water in cover (did not let him see me plant). I then let him go and jumped in the boat and paddled across to the ducks. I did not require steadiness or a command. I just let him go and he naturally followed me across the water as I gave him encouragement. I fired a shotgun blank at the ducks and he went in for the retrieve. I paddled back across the water so that he was delivering the ducks to me standing on the shore. By about the third time he was swimming directly across without the boat. I then placed the ducks farther apart and made him look for them. Once I saw that he understood what was going on I just taped the duck's feet and left the wings untaped so that he got to chase the duck when he found it. Then, I'd paddle across and shoot the duck for him. The chase and subsequent shot really amped him up. I'm a big believer in live duck chases. Constantly retrieving taped or dead ducks is boring to the dog.

I think that this method is easier for the dog to understand. You are in the water with him. Standing at the edge of a field expecting your dog to cover the entire field without you moving doesn't sound quite right. But, that's what we're expecting when we bring a dog to the water. I just take the same idea in the field to the water. Being in the water with him gives them confidence just as it does a puppy in the field.

There does reach a point in the training where you need to force them back out when they quit. It's up to you, the trainer, to determine if they're quitting because they don't understand or because they just don't want to do it. If it's the latter you can force them back out if you've FF'd them or you can show them what you want by paddling them out to the ducks. Either way, they need to understand that there are ducks out there and they can't come back without one.

adogslife
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Post by adogslife » Tue Sep 11, 2007 2:51 pm

QUOTE:
There does reach a point in the training where you need to force them back out when they quit.

This is not true for high desire dogs.Which is why it is important to know how the parents were trained and if there is a strong desire for water searches before getting a pup from a litter.


QUOTE:
If it's the latter you can force them back out if you've FF'd them or you can show them what you want by paddling them out to the ducks. Either way, they need to understand that there are ducks out there and they can't come back without one.

This is where problems can arise in training.For some it may be a harsh tone and a rough shake and send them back, for others it could be burning the bank with the e-collar.
Either way, if your dog is a little on the dependent side, you could screw things up.
This step needs to be carefully considered.

parshal
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Post by parshal » Tue Sep 11, 2007 4:30 pm

adogslife wrote:This is where problems can arise in training.For some it may be a harsh tone and a rough shake and send them back, for others it could be burning the bank with the e-collar.
Either way, if your dog is a little on the dependent side, you could screw things up.
This step needs to be carefully considered.
I could not agree more. That's what I attempted to infer when I said this:
It's up to you, the trainer, to determine if they're quitting because they don't understand or because they just don't want to do it.
You'd better have a good read of your dog because if they're confused and you start hammering them it's going to make it worse. That's why, with a softer dog, I'd prefer to just show them what I want by paddling back across and showing them the duck. There comes a time for force with those dogs but it takes a good read to figure out when that time is and how harsh it should be.

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