Got pigeons - how start now

[Robby]

So I've finally got some pigeons. How would you start out with the older dog?
I've worked a lot with him, but he doesn't know piegeons to be fun yet.
Kill one and let him play with it?
Just plant one and see what happens?

Thanks for any suggestions,
Michael

[zdiddy]

let him kill one

[Don]

Just the same as I'd start with a young dog. All it really amounts to is introducing a new bird. As the dog never did them befor, he might not do well in the begining. If the dog is good and steady on game birds, just spaniel plant the birds for him and let him bump a few first.

[gonehuntin']

Refresh us, how old is the pup?

[ohiogsp]

We need to know how far you are in training before we can comment. Are you shooting birds? Is your dog holding point? What level is he at? This is the only way anyone can give you good advise.

[Robby]

The dog (actually two, but I'm not sure which one to try first) are 3 and 4 years old. They will retrieve, search for lost rabbits, track, etc. Obedience is pretty good.
However, this will be the first pointing training. I have taught them a Whoa though, but I'm not sure how solid it is.
They both show a natural tendency to point, but have never been told to hold it before I came around.
Thing is, they don't seem to find the pigeons at a nearby cowstable all too exciting. Of course they also had never been allowed to chase them. So I'm wondering how to bring back the instincts.

Michael

[12 Volt Man]

Since this is their first introduction to birds, I would assume that you don't have a launcher. Grab a helper. You'll plant the bird with it's wings locked (takes a little learning, but the wings can be extended and the lower feathers crossed to lock them together). Then work the dog into the birds on a check chord. Once the dog goes on point, get the chord tight so that the dog can't move forward. Send your helper in to flush the bird (pick up the bird, quickly unlock the wings and give it a toss). Make the dog stand and watch the bird fly away. Give huge praises to the dog. Going through this drill two or three times will give you an idea of where to go next. If you don't know what to do next, then post up the results. I'm sure someone can give you some guidance.

[gonehuntin']

Besides locking the wings if you can't figure it out, there are two other ways. One is to get a baby's sock and put it over the pigeons head just like they hood a falcon. Tie a string to the sock end and a 10' piece of string. Work the dog in on a cc and tighten up on the cc when he points. Have a helper pull the sock from the bird's head and it will flush.

You can also do the Delmar Smith method. Work the cc the same way. Have a two foot section of garden hose with a cord running out each end tied to each leg of the pigeon. When the dog points, have the helper throw the bird in the air. It'll fly off a distance and land because of the weight of the hose. You can then pick it up and use it again.

To get him birdy though, I first like to throw a clip wing pigeon (pigeon with the feathers cut short to the contour of the wing and let the dog chase, catch, and hopefully retrieve it. Then he'll know what bird's are all about. Do this before you start him pointing.

[Don]

There's probably several different ways of going about this but he's what I'd do. They have no intrest because there is no value in the bird to them and I think you said that at one time you discouraged them on pigeons. You have to make a value.

Spaniel plant some birds and walk the dogs around, one at a time, to find the birds. The birds will not hold for them which is alright because they won't point them either. Shoot the birds anyway when they flush. Your dogs do retrieve don't they? If so, let them retrieve them. If they don't, pick up the dead bird and go on. Keep doing this until the dogs actually seem to be looking for the bird and go to the shot bird. If they won't retrieve them, don't worry. Just force break them later. One problem at a time please!

Everybody is going to say I'm creating a problem for you, they are right. Sometimes you have to create a problem to fix a problem. Your only problem seems to be that the birds have no value to them and/or you already taught them to leave them alone.

I don't think that teaching the dog to do what we want ever works very well. What works well is showing the dog how to get what IT wants. Thats where "if you sit I'll give you a treat comes in". They don't sit because you want them to, they sit because you showed them how to get the treat. Over a peroid of time, the function becomes a habit and the dog can be weaned off the treat.

So to get back to the problem you have, instill value in the bird and the dog will go for the bird. Of course then you'll have to fix the problem your creating now, later. Don't overdo creating the problem. Do just enought to get them intrested. You created a problem you didn't realize you were creating when you first started discouraging them on pigeons. Now you need to fix that problem befor you can move on.

[Robby]

Thank you! Good advice!
They do retrieve, indeed. Although, my trouble with your suggestion Don is, that so far my pigeon supply is existent, but limited. I'm working on that, but can't kill every bird I've got. For now I have to reuse.

Michael

[gonehuntin']

Everybody is going to say I'm creating a problem for you, they are right. Sometimes you have to create a problem to fix a problem.

Charles Morgan, the great American Retriever trainer of the 50's used to say that "dog training was nothing more than replacing a greater problem with a lesser problem until you had the fewest possible problems left." That was true 60 years ago and it's just as true today.

[bondoron]

Don,
What do you mean by spaniel plant? I don't know if I ever heard this term before.

[Don]

To spaniel plant, hold the bird with your hanh across it's bach and it's head down. Spin the bird in circles with your wrist only. Watch the head and you'll see it get loose and rubbery looking. When that happens, look at it's eyes and they will be blinking and the head cocked to the side. Then take the bird and throw it into fairly heavy cover hard enough to know the wind out of it. It'll stay there 15 to 20 min, sometimes more. By the time you come back with your dog, the bird will be up and walking around and will flush on it's own. Get's hard for the dog to catch them!

I do put birds to sleep but really with as many as I have it's a far better way, second only to the remote launcher. And by birds I mean pigeons.

[Robby]

So you don't tuck the head under one wing?

[Don]

No. Do not tuck the head. And don't try to put the bird down, throw it into cover.

[bondoron]

Thanks Don. That is the way I do it, but I just always called it dizzying the pigeon. Didn't know there was a different term. Huh learn something new every day.

[ohiogsp]

You don't have to throw them down hard. I just toss them anywhere and they are fine.