12 o' clock tail

GrouseHunter22 · Post by **GrouseHunter22** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 4:23 pm

Can you train the a dog to point with a 12 o' clock tail or is it just natural insincts? If so, how?

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 4:35 pm

Mom and Dad have to put it on them!

GrouseHunter22 · Post by **GrouseHunter22** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 7:20 pm

Thats what I thought. Thanks.

Post by **Ayres** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 8:10 pm

How important is tail positioning on point? Will it make or break the result of a field trial (i.e. inhibit the ability to earn the FC)?

I heard that in Britan they want the tails horizontal, but in the US they want them vertical. Justus has a 9 to 10 o'clock tail sometimes, and sometimes it's between 11 and 12 o'clock... just depends on when he catches scent.

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 11:58 pm

Each event will hold it's own classification of style. NSTRA considers a hight tail a dog that points between 2 and 10 and above.
My opinion is that most judges in AKC get to see very broke dogs with very good bird manners and fantastic races to them so when it comes time to pick the best one of there liking that day. The one with the most style, flashy, and easiest on the eyes will get the pick.

llewgor · Post by **llewgor** » Mon Nov 29, 2004 12:59 am

I thought you gave them a shot of botox, you know like Kerry's forehead. My llewellin's tail goes up and she stands nice n tall, head up. My gordon's tail stays low and he stands like a cat ready to pouch. It's easier to she the llewellin in the tall grass when she points. With her also it's like she can't help herself everything goes stiff. I've seen her in the yard laying down when a bird lands on the house and she presses herself up like she on a balance beam until she up on her toes and tail straight up. Sure is fun.

sdgord · Post by **sdgord** » Mon Nov 29, 2004 10:00 am

My older Gordon points with a poker tail she is field bred. My younger Gordon is a dual bred dog and points with a horizontal or level tail. The only time I saw her point with a 12 oclock tail was on a 13 stripe gopher. While both dogs get the job done it is easier to win and place in field trial competion with a flashier point. I am not sure you could win or place at all in Am field competion without it. I have seen dogs win in AKC field trials with a level tail. But most of those dogs are the exception. They just have to do everything else much better than the other dogs.SDGORD

tfbirddog2 · Post by **tfbirddog2** » Mon Nov 29, 2004 9:06 pm

I have seen some folks walk up to the dog and storke it to 12 o'clock.But I to think is bred into.My female out of the Rawhide line is a high tailer both run and point,but Sassy has high tail only on point.

Rusti's Mom · Post by **Rusti's Mom** » Tue Nov 30, 2004 12:44 pm

In this last litter of 10 pups, 8 have 12 o'clock tails. Two of them keep that tail high at all times. It is like it is wired at 12. Six of them most of the time, and the other 2 are more level or at 10 o'clock.

First litter, most were like their mother, 10 o'clock or level.

I feel that the breeding has more to do with it than anything else. The two wired tails have been like that since they were born.

Pat

Post by **Ayres** » Tue Nov 30, 2004 3:06 pm

Justus usually carries his tail curved upward so that the last 3/4 of it is pointed straight up. When he hunts, he wags his tail and just freezes when he catches scent (he's a dog that lowers his neck and physically points with his muzzle which direction the scent is coming from). Will that change as he has more training and gets more bold with age? Will he start pointing with his tail at 12 o'clock like the way he runs around normally?

I'm just going to have to get a current picture of him on point to evaluate.

QCBirddogs · Post by **QCBirddogs** » Tue Nov 30, 2004 4:10 pm

It definetly has to do with breeding here folks.

You can make a dog "style" up a bit and for that matter you can make them tuck it as well. All in the training......When I judge I like to see what a dog does when the handler approaches the bird or the dog. The dog will tell the "tail" on how it was trained!!!!!! I also watch closely what he dog does after the flush.

Getting back to structure....

If you have a dog with a low tailset and a curved spine at the hind quarters, there is no way he could carry the tail or point with it high. Best you will get is level or 10 o'clock.

A dog with the tail set on top of the spine, will have a tendency to cycle over, again, not nice to see.

Personally, I like to see a dog with the set between 10 and 11. I think it compliments the dogs head when on point. I am also a fan of tails on the longer side. Just my thoughts though.

Phil
REO

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Tue Nov 30, 2004 10:07 pm

"""""Personally, I like to see a dog with the set between 10 and 11. I think it compliments the dogs head when on point. I am also a fan of tails on the longer side. Just my thoughts though. """""

:hello1:
:wav:

Post by **Ayres** » Wed Dec 01, 2004 12:56 am

Good! This is similar to what he normally looks like. Just imagine this pic with the tail an inch or so higher, the head an inch or so lower and stretched forward, and that left front paw tucked and that's his "normal" point.

When I say normal, I mean what he does more often than not. From the descriptions, sounds like he's not far off from what some call ideal. I'm sure the sniffer will make up the rest.

Birdhunter1 · Post by **Birdhunter1** » Wed Dec 01, 2004 4:27 am

My dog doesn't hav a tail to stand up straight, he has a nub. LOL
Seriously though my Brittany does several different things with his tail when locked on point: if it is stratight up and frozen solid he is looking right at the bird and it is a single. if the tail is moving rapidly and head is focused then one or more birds are in front of him and they are moving. If tail is horizontal and moving and he's sniffin then he has a bird that is somewhere close and he's not sure where.

QCBirddogs · Post by **QCBirddogs** » Wed Dec 01, 2004 11:31 am

BH,

I like to see Britts with a little tail too. but many folks in your breed like to keep that knot of hair on the end of the tails :roll: That always seems to fall off when they come in here!

Obviously you spend some time with your dogs. Training first dog owners how to read their dogs is the hardest part of being a dog trainer! Kudos to you!

Steven,

That is a classic young Viz point! He holds his tail and head well! Now the rest is up to you........you could make it better or worse.

Sounds like a good start for another thread here!

Phil
REO

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Wed Dec 01, 2004 7:03 pm

Birdhunter1 wrote:My dog doesn't hav a tail to stand up straight, he has a nub. LOL
Seriously though my Brittany does several different things with his tail when locked on point: if it is stratight up and frozen solid he is looking right at the bird and it is a single. if the tail is moving rapidly and head is focused then one or more birds are in front of him and they are moving. If tail is horizontal and moving and he's sniffin then he has a bird that is somewhere close and he's not sure where.

Sound like a smart Brit! Love em"

Birdhunter1 · Post by **Birdhunter1** » Thu Dec 02, 2004 3:13 am

QCBirddogs wrote:BH,

I like to see Britts with a little tail too. but many folks in your breed like to keep that knot of hair on the end of the tails :roll: That always seems to fall off when they come in here!

Obviously you spend some time with your dogs. Training first dog owners how to read their dogs is the hardest part of being a dog trainer! Kudos to you!

Yes I do spend alot of time with my dogs in the field, if you call 4-5 days a week hunting alot. That's one of the nicest things about working midnights, get off work, go get breakfast, load up dogs and gun, go to the field for 4 or 5 hours then go to bed, It's a rough life. This is my first Brittany but I use to have beagles as a kid and my dad has had a few Brittany's so I am not exactly new to hunting dogs. There are several universals when it comes to hunting dogs, like each one is going to do something diffrent from another and picking up on thier habits so that there is communication in the field.

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Thu Dec 02, 2004 4:48 am

GrouseHunter22 wrote:Can you train the a dog to point with a 12 o' clock tail or is it just natural insincts? If so, how?

GrouseHunter22,

Nice picture, Nice Gordon! Wow Classy!

GrouseHunter22 · Post by **GrouseHunter22** » Thu Dec 02, 2004 9:23 am

That was the winner of the Gordon Setter Nationals this year: FC Prairie Star High Noon. He sure is a beauty.

QCBirddogs · Post by **QCBirddogs** » Thu Dec 02, 2004 11:24 am

GH22,

Doesn't Jim Basham run that dog?

Phil
REO

GrouseHunter22 · Post by **GrouseHunter22** » Thu Dec 02, 2004 4:46 pm

Yes he does, do you know Jim? He was on ESPN a few days ago.

QCBirddogs · Post by **QCBirddogs** » Thu Dec 02, 2004 8:55 pm

Yes I do know him. I have been to his kennel many times, got several dogs from him and ran with and against him at trials and tests.

I havent seen him in some time though. I didnt know he was on ESPN either! HE has been in the game for many years and did a lot of good for the Gordon breed, thats for sure!

His place has been for sale for a while. His wife wants him to retire! DOnt know if a dog man like him is capable of doing that!

Phil
REO

GrouseHunter22 · Post by **GrouseHunter22** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 12:14 am

They ran a week long special on Gordons. I only saw one day of it but did see Jim.

Gun Dog Forum

12 o' clock tail

12 o' clock tail

12 oclock tail

12 tail

Re: 12 o' clock tail