Any drills to help with creeping? My 11 month old GSP has started creeping on me, I know she is young so I’m not obviously loosing any sleep over it but would like to stop a bad habit when it presents itself if at all possible.
Backstory and equipment I have:
-She has NEVER caught a bird
-I have pigeons
-no remote launcher, just kick cages
-also just hand tossed birds when young, to chase and introduce the starter pistol at that stage
-has been through whoa post and transitioned to collar on flank, stops on a dime when remote cued.
Do I need a remote launcher? I want one (or 3) anyway, is this the excuse to buy a set?
Stick with equipment I have?
I’m a little unsure of myself as what action to take when she does go on point, and then start the slow creep. Should I give a continuous remote cue on flank at that point when she initiates creep?
I have all the Huntsmith equipment and follow that plan for what it’s worth….
Thanks
Creeping
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RayGubernat
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Re: Creeping
Sanders-
A remote activated launcher is always a nice tool to have and a pair of them is even better. Stop to flush drills with remote launchers is one of the best ways to staunch up a dog that I know.
However, there are a fair number of things you can do without one. Yardwork, starting with the dog on a barrel, bench or placeboard and having a lockwing pigeon to throw down in front of the dog and walk around. I'd do this type drill with a checkcord attached to a prong or pinch collar in my hand to cue or stop the dog, if necessary. I would do plenty of stroking and styling up and do some gentle pushing from the rear. The pushing is meant to get the dog to stiffen up and resist being moved forward. I typically push with the flat of one hand across the back end just below the anus until the dog digs in and resists Once the dog is rock steady on the barrel bench or board, I'd do it on the ground and toss a pigeon and have it fly away and then throw down the lockwing bird. If the dogmoves so much as a toenail, go to the dog, physically pick it up off the ground and walk it back a couple of steps away from the bird. The GENTLY place the dog on the ground, front end first and then GENTLY lower the back end to the ground while pushing forward. The placing of the front feet down first and then subsequent pushing forward should cause the dog to lock up its front and resist being pushed forward. If you are consistent, the dog will begin to understand that every time it moves, it gets further away from the bird...not closer and that its best choice is to just stand there. Always gently stroke and style the dog. They get high on the sight and scent of the bird and your styling and stroking only enhances that sensation. ALWAYS let the dog soak up all that stimulation, all that scent and when the dog is pointing solidly...just stand there, hands behind your back, quiet and still. Five minutes is not at all too long to stand quietly and just watch.
Now in the field, you can make a manual remote launcher or two with a a bit of 1/2" plywood, a couple strips of 1 X 2, some screening and string. Paul Long described how to make it in his book. Basically you take a piece of plywood, cut a hole in the center, sized for the bird you want to use, tack or staple on a bonnet shaped piece of screen or hardware cloth again sized for your bird of choice and nail runners on the underside of the unit. A long piece of string tied to the front of the sled and you are in business. If you pull the sled, it will slide over the bird, tumbling it out and ensuring that it will fly off. You could probably tie a string to your kick cages and get by with that.
I much prefer doing this type of steadying the old school way, with hands and a pinch or prong collar on versus e collar on the flank, mostly because that is what I'm comfortable with and this allows me to reserve the e collar for the situations when the hands on isn't getting it done. However, if you are comfortable using the e-collar on the flank and the dog is going along well with it...keep doing what you are doing. I do find that VERY light stim is usually all that is necessary on the flank. On one dog I recently worked with, all that was necessary was the vibration mode, no stim whatsoever. he turned and came to me at the double when i it the tone button and stayed locked up tight with a vibrate while I was flushing. Each dog is different and you know what your dog needs. Just be as careful as you can to not interfere with the magic between the dog and the bird.
RayG
PS - I forgot to mention that I do heel/whoa drills after the manner of Paul Long. When the dog is on a whoa, I will gently pick up their back end and gently put it down with forward pressure. I will also go behind the dog on whoa and do the palm on the butt pushing forward to get the to dig in and resist. Doing this in the yard, without birds, gets them acclimatized and conditioned to the handling, so what when I do it with a bird there, the dog understands and is comfortable.
A remote activated launcher is always a nice tool to have and a pair of them is even better. Stop to flush drills with remote launchers is one of the best ways to staunch up a dog that I know.
However, there are a fair number of things you can do without one. Yardwork, starting with the dog on a barrel, bench or placeboard and having a lockwing pigeon to throw down in front of the dog and walk around. I'd do this type drill with a checkcord attached to a prong or pinch collar in my hand to cue or stop the dog, if necessary. I would do plenty of stroking and styling up and do some gentle pushing from the rear. The pushing is meant to get the dog to stiffen up and resist being moved forward. I typically push with the flat of one hand across the back end just below the anus until the dog digs in and resists Once the dog is rock steady on the barrel bench or board, I'd do it on the ground and toss a pigeon and have it fly away and then throw down the lockwing bird. If the dogmoves so much as a toenail, go to the dog, physically pick it up off the ground and walk it back a couple of steps away from the bird. The GENTLY place the dog on the ground, front end first and then GENTLY lower the back end to the ground while pushing forward. The placing of the front feet down first and then subsequent pushing forward should cause the dog to lock up its front and resist being pushed forward. If you are consistent, the dog will begin to understand that every time it moves, it gets further away from the bird...not closer and that its best choice is to just stand there. Always gently stroke and style the dog. They get high on the sight and scent of the bird and your styling and stroking only enhances that sensation. ALWAYS let the dog soak up all that stimulation, all that scent and when the dog is pointing solidly...just stand there, hands behind your back, quiet and still. Five minutes is not at all too long to stand quietly and just watch.
Now in the field, you can make a manual remote launcher or two with a a bit of 1/2" plywood, a couple strips of 1 X 2, some screening and string. Paul Long described how to make it in his book. Basically you take a piece of plywood, cut a hole in the center, sized for the bird you want to use, tack or staple on a bonnet shaped piece of screen or hardware cloth again sized for your bird of choice and nail runners on the underside of the unit. A long piece of string tied to the front of the sled and you are in business. If you pull the sled, it will slide over the bird, tumbling it out and ensuring that it will fly off. You could probably tie a string to your kick cages and get by with that.
I much prefer doing this type of steadying the old school way, with hands and a pinch or prong collar on versus e collar on the flank, mostly because that is what I'm comfortable with and this allows me to reserve the e collar for the situations when the hands on isn't getting it done. However, if you are comfortable using the e-collar on the flank and the dog is going along well with it...keep doing what you are doing. I do find that VERY light stim is usually all that is necessary on the flank. On one dog I recently worked with, all that was necessary was the vibration mode, no stim whatsoever. he turned and came to me at the double when i it the tone button and stayed locked up tight with a vibrate while I was flushing. Each dog is different and you know what your dog needs. Just be as careful as you can to not interfere with the magic between the dog and the bird.
RayG
PS - I forgot to mention that I do heel/whoa drills after the manner of Paul Long. When the dog is on a whoa, I will gently pick up their back end and gently put it down with forward pressure. I will also go behind the dog on whoa and do the palm on the butt pushing forward to get the to dig in and resist. Doing this in the yard, without birds, gets them acclimatized and conditioned to the handling, so what when I do it with a bird there, the dog understands and is comfortable.
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gonehuntin'
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Re: Creeping
Ray has given you some great advice, follow it. NOTHING will replace electronic launchers because you have precise control over the bird, when it launches. It allows you to, even at the wag of a dog's tail or movement of the head, to launch the bird.
I used manual launchers for several years at a large kennel I worked at and never liked them. Why? Because you have to have the string in your hand to free the bird, then you may only get a walking bird and not a flying bird so I don't have too much use for them.
I DO like using a heavy fishing rod with them. I'm a musky fisherman so I use musky rod's, but if you don't fish, a cheap trolling rod and reel with suffice. You can get them on sites like Craig's List for practically nothing and sometimes see them free.
I rig them with simply leg harnesses made of two pieces of 6" line with a swivel on each end. One end attaches to the fishing line, the other ends are attached to the pigeons LEGS with small electric zip ties. Hide the rod and bird in a field with medium and work the dog into it, CROSSWIND. The harness should be reeled down within 6" of the rod tip, Work the pup into the bird. This works best with two birds but can be done with one person, a CC and a portable whoa post. Sink the whoa post into the ground at the approximate location you want the dog to wind the bird. Work the dog to that spot CROSSWIND until he snaps around on the point. Attache the CC to the whoa post. Like Ray, I have a pinch collar on the pup which will later have an Electric Collar substituted for it. Whoa the pup and walk into the bird. Pick up the fishing rod. Hit free spool and let out about 3' of line. Watch the pup. You will still have one end of the cc in your hand, the other through the swivel of the whoa post. Now, you have total control of the situation. The pup will not stay locked on whoa. As soon as he moves, flip the bird in the air with the rod, reel in free spool, and let the bird fly away and land, maybe 30' away. When the pup moves, give a small tug on the cc and whoa him. Heel him away from the bird and back to his kennel.
Later on you can fire a pistol and when the bird flutters down on the fishing line, let him retrieve it. Best done in short cover.
This is a method to use ONLY after he has been steadied on clipwings in the yard. It is a poor substitute for an electric launcher, but it works and it's cheap. It also lets you steady a dog to advance degrees later by fluttering the pigeon right in the pups nose and flying it if he moves an inch. I think I can post a video if you're at all interested.
Now, later on, a hunting dog should move (imo) when a wild bird moves. For now, it's a fault. Later on it will be a desired trait. Have fun!
I used manual launchers for several years at a large kennel I worked at and never liked them. Why? Because you have to have the string in your hand to free the bird, then you may only get a walking bird and not a flying bird so I don't have too much use for them.
I DO like using a heavy fishing rod with them. I'm a musky fisherman so I use musky rod's, but if you don't fish, a cheap trolling rod and reel with suffice. You can get them on sites like Craig's List for practically nothing and sometimes see them free.
I rig them with simply leg harnesses made of two pieces of 6" line with a swivel on each end. One end attaches to the fishing line, the other ends are attached to the pigeons LEGS with small electric zip ties. Hide the rod and bird in a field with medium and work the dog into it, CROSSWIND. The harness should be reeled down within 6" of the rod tip, Work the pup into the bird. This works best with two birds but can be done with one person, a CC and a portable whoa post. Sink the whoa post into the ground at the approximate location you want the dog to wind the bird. Work the dog to that spot CROSSWIND until he snaps around on the point. Attache the CC to the whoa post. Like Ray, I have a pinch collar on the pup which will later have an Electric Collar substituted for it. Whoa the pup and walk into the bird. Pick up the fishing rod. Hit free spool and let out about 3' of line. Watch the pup. You will still have one end of the cc in your hand, the other through the swivel of the whoa post. Now, you have total control of the situation. The pup will not stay locked on whoa. As soon as he moves, flip the bird in the air with the rod, reel in free spool, and let the bird fly away and land, maybe 30' away. When the pup moves, give a small tug on the cc and whoa him. Heel him away from the bird and back to his kennel.
Later on you can fire a pistol and when the bird flutters down on the fishing line, let him retrieve it. Best done in short cover.
This is a method to use ONLY after he has been steadied on clipwings in the yard. It is a poor substitute for an electric launcher, but it works and it's cheap. It also lets you steady a dog to advance degrees later by fluttering the pigeon right in the pups nose and flying it if he moves an inch. I think I can post a video if you're at all interested.
Now, later on, a hunting dog should move (imo) when a wild bird moves. For now, it's a fault. Later on it will be a desired trait. Have fun!
LIFE WITHOUT BIRD DOGS AND FLY RODS REALLY ISN'T LIFE AT ALL.
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gonehuntin'
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Re: Creeping
I dug up this 7 year old video to show you how it works with a pup that has been through yard work and is collar broken. This is the pup's final steadiness training before hunting season. You can see the superb control I have with the rod and reel of the bird. What you can't see, is when the pup moves ( she was 10 months), she was lightly bumped with the collar and the command STOP given. ( hate WHOA so use STOP). Sorry the wind is blowing so hard. You can training a dog with just two or three pigeons using this method and ALWAYS get good flyers. The have to! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1p_wsSm_u-c
LIFE WITHOUT BIRD DOGS AND FLY RODS REALLY ISN'T LIFE AT ALL.
Re: Creeping
I was going to comment on this, but one of my better qualities (
) is that I know who is more qualified to comment on certain aspects of dog training than myself, so I waited for them to chime in. You have some top-flight information from some highly experienced bird dog guys above.
) is that I know who is more qualified to comment on certain aspects of dog training than myself, so I waited for them to chime in. You have some top-flight information from some highly experienced bird dog guys above.
Re: Creeping
I agree 100%, in a training situation as you describe with planted birds, or on a preserve type hunt, the dog should be completely staunch as soon as it makes scent. This is something that is a concern and should be addressed in the manners prescribed. It also may have been avoided with the launchers you want to purchase.
Some will undoubtedly disagree for their wants and needs, but as a hunter with no immediate aspirations of trialing, and only concerning myself with wild birds out here in the west. I have no issue with my dog working scent after first contact, I actually prefer it. I know for a fact it has produced a lot more hard earned shots after a long hike up a mountain. Not to be confused with creeping in the manner you describe, moving closer and closer to a bird that is planted and the dog knows is there. No dog should be allowed to think this is acceptable. I am talking about allowing the dog to self-relocate on a moving covey or until he has the birds pinned, and then locking up. The only way I know to shape this behavior is to allow them to figure it out on their own, with birds they can’t catch. I find verbal commands, and cues on the flank collar around game confuses this important relationship, until the dog knows how much pressure he can, and should apply on his own. Then again, all my dogs have been naturally cautious and see lots and lots of coveys every year.
Garrison
Some will undoubtedly disagree for their wants and needs, but as a hunter with no immediate aspirations of trialing, and only concerning myself with wild birds out here in the west. I have no issue with my dog working scent after first contact, I actually prefer it. I know for a fact it has produced a lot more hard earned shots after a long hike up a mountain. Not to be confused with creeping in the manner you describe, moving closer and closer to a bird that is planted and the dog knows is there. No dog should be allowed to think this is acceptable. I am talking about allowing the dog to self-relocate on a moving covey or until he has the birds pinned, and then locking up. The only way I know to shape this behavior is to allow them to figure it out on their own, with birds they can’t catch. I find verbal commands, and cues on the flank collar around game confuses this important relationship, until the dog knows how much pressure he can, and should apply on his own. Then again, all my dogs have been naturally cautious and see lots and lots of coveys every year.
Garrison
“Heaven goes by favor. If it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in.”
- Mark Twain-
- Mark Twain-
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RayGubernat
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Re: Creeping
Sanders -
Just saw this. You might be interested.
https://www.njwoodsandwater.com/forums/ ... ng-events/
A poster put up two LCS launchers, a 209 primer pistol and a bird bag for $400. I'm not a fan of LCS launchers(I like Dogtra), but a cheapie primer pistol goes for $90 new and a bird bag is about thirty bucks new, so you are getting the launchers for about a buck fifty each. That ain't bad.m You can always sell them next year after they have done what you need them for.
RayG
Just saw this. You might be interested.
https://www.njwoodsandwater.com/forums/ ... ng-events/
A poster put up two LCS launchers, a 209 primer pistol and a bird bag for $400. I'm not a fan of LCS launchers(I like Dogtra), but a cheapie primer pistol goes for $90 new and a bird bag is about thirty bucks new, so you are getting the launchers for about a buck fifty each. That ain't bad.m You can always sell them next year after they have done what you need them for.
RayG
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gonehuntin'
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- Posts: 4868
- Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2006 5:38 pm
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Re: Creeping
I agree Garrison; I know of no reliable way to teach relocation and it is perhaps a wild bird dog's MOST valuable asset. I've tried walking behind birds to make them move. The dog's track me and not the bird. I've tried walking them on a fishing pole. Dog's still track me. Best thing I came up with was to use a 50', 1/8" rope, put a dropper in the center of it, give a helper (wife) the other end, and walk the bird out from a planted place. That worked OK and was the best idea and had the best results of anything I've come up with. Your wife will hate you.Garrison wrote: ↑Thu Aug 17, 2023 4:16 pmI agree 100%, in a training situation as you describe with planted birds, or on a preserve type hunt, the dog should be completely staunch as soon as it makes scent. This is something that is a concern and should be addressed in the manners prescribed. It also may have been avoided with the launchers you want to purchase.
Some will undoubtedly disagree for their wants and needs, but as a hunter with no immediate aspirations of trialing, and only concerning myself with wild birds out here in the west. I have no issue with my dog working scent after first contact, I actually prefer it. I know for a fact it has produced a lot more hard earned shots after a long hike up a mountain. Not to be confused with creeping in the manner you describe, moving closer and closer to a bird that is planted and the dog knows is there. No dog should be allowed to think this is acceptable. I am talking about allowing the dog to self-relocate on a moving covey or until he has the birds pinned, and then locking up. The only way I know to shape this behavior is to allow them to figure it out on their own, with birds they can’t catch. I find verbal commands, and cues on the flank collar around game confuses this important relationship, until the dog knows how much pressure he can, and should apply on his own. Then again, all my dogs have been naturally cautious and see lots and lots of coveys every year.
Garrison
LIFE WITHOUT BIRD DOGS AND FLY RODS REALLY ISN'T LIFE AT ALL.
Re: Creeping
Thanks for all the guidance. I’m going to the intermediate seminar at Ronnie Smiths September 9, so will report back. I feel like my dog is at the perfect stage to get lots of good work in September and October then hit the ground running this novermber-January hunting wild birds. Planning on western Oklahoma, Kansas, and Arizona. Looking forward to it!
Re: Creeping
$400 total Pistol $90RayGubernat wrote: ↑Thu Aug 17, 2023 5:11 pmSanders -
Just saw this. You might be interested.
https://www.njwoodsandwater.com/forums/ ... ng-events/
A poster put up two LCS launchers, a 209 primer pistol and a bird bag for $400. I'm not a fan of LCS launchers(I like Dogtra), but a cheapie primer pistol goes for $90 new and a bird bag is about thirty bucks new, so you are getting the launchers for about a buck fifty each. That ain't bad.m You can always sell them next year after they have done what you need them for.
RayG
Bird bag $30
total $120 $280 for the launchers more like $140 each. Probably not such a good deal. .......Cj
Re: Creeping
Thanks, but I have bird bags and a pistol.
Do you all like DT or Dogtra branded launchers?
Do you all like DT or Dogtra branded launchers?
Re: Creeping
Sanders wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 10:39 amThanks for all the guidance. I’m going to the intermediate seminar at Ronnie Smiths September 9, so will report back. I feel like my dog is at the perfect stage to get lots of good work in September and October then hit the ground running this novermber-January hunting wild birds. Planning on western Oklahoma, Kansas, and Arizona. Looking forward to it!
That is a great decision! Even though it is expensive, you won't be sorry.
" We are more than our gender, skin color, class, sexuality or age; we are unlimited potential, and can not be defined by one label." quote A. Bartlett
Re: Creeping
https://youtu.be/HgRULs6Tgmc
He also has a really good video about how to use them properly. I posted it here on the forum at one point.
Garrison
“Heaven goes by favor. If it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in.”
- Mark Twain-
- Mark Twain-
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RyanDoolittle
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Re: Creeping
A week on wild Huns will solve your creeping issue right quick. Doesn't take a dog long to figure out not to move unless the birds do.
Re: Creeping
A week on pretty much any wild bird should solve the issue.
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Sent from my moto g power 5G - 2023 using Tapatalk
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RayGubernat
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Re: Creeping
Sanders -
One piece of training advice you will probably not find in any book. It is pretty old school and must be done carefully.
If the dog is on point, position yourself alongside, up by the front of the dog. If it moves a foot...even a little... step on the dog's foot...just a little, but enough to make the dog pull it back. Of course...say nothing and just stand there. Ideally you will have a partner who can flush while you stand there. You could physically pick the dog up, walk it back one or two steps and then gently place it down, style it up and then...standing there...just take your foot and just barely graze the front of the dog's foot with yours. The message is clear.
Another piece of training advice you probably won't find written down is to have a pocketful of pebbles. Stand off to one side and near the front of the dog on point. If the dog shuffles its feet or takes a step, strongly sidearm a handful of pebbles out in front of the dog so that they bounce out in front of the dog without hitting them. That can really tighten a dog up. Unfortunately, dogs get wise to that one pretty quickly, so it may only be useful for a short period of time and after that only very infrequently. It is a surprise thing and once the dog is wise to it,they are harder to surprise.
How did the Smith seminar go? Hopefully they were able to give you some guidance and put a few new tools into your training toolbox.
RayG
One piece of training advice you will probably not find in any book. It is pretty old school and must be done carefully.
If the dog is on point, position yourself alongside, up by the front of the dog. If it moves a foot...even a little... step on the dog's foot...just a little, but enough to make the dog pull it back. Of course...say nothing and just stand there. Ideally you will have a partner who can flush while you stand there. You could physically pick the dog up, walk it back one or two steps and then gently place it down, style it up and then...standing there...just take your foot and just barely graze the front of the dog's foot with yours. The message is clear.
Another piece of training advice you probably won't find written down is to have a pocketful of pebbles. Stand off to one side and near the front of the dog on point. If the dog shuffles its feet or takes a step, strongly sidearm a handful of pebbles out in front of the dog so that they bounce out in front of the dog without hitting them. That can really tighten a dog up. Unfortunately, dogs get wise to that one pretty quickly, so it may only be useful for a short period of time and after that only very infrequently. It is a surprise thing and once the dog is wise to it,they are harder to surprise.
How did the Smith seminar go? Hopefully they were able to give you some guidance and put a few new tools into your training toolbox.
RayG