Transitioning Training

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brokeoff
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Transitioning Training

Post by brokeoff » Sat May 20, 2023 8:34 pm

New guy here. New dog as well. I have a 2 year old lab that I'd like to use for some planted pheasants a few times a year. I bought the Wild Rose books and DVDs and feel like we have a decent foundation of sit/stay/here(needs work)/heel and some very limited lining/marking/casting.

I finally got him out on some birds this past weekend. He started really rough. Couldn't recall since he wanted to hang with the kenneled dogs, scared of the guys that run the preserve, confused about the live birds in the crates. Once he calmed down a bit he started to gain interest in the birds. Retrieved to my area, but not like he would a bumper to heel/hand like he does in the yard. He did fine with the first exposures to the .22 and we let him flush a couple of birds. He was able to remote sit after the flush both times.

I was told that the day went well but I really needed to work on recall. It was suggested I get an e collar.

Now I am trying to figure out how to either transition from wild rose to something that uses e collars more prominently, or continue with wild rose and find something that compliments it for a few things.

Really excited that the beginnings are starting to show some potential.

gypsy
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Re: Transitioning Training

Post by gypsy » Sun May 21, 2023 10:51 am

Work/train every day 10 to 15 minutes.

The most important comman is WHOA.

Start using a whistle for whoa and recall. Much eaiser for an excited dog to hear a whistle than your voice.

The whoa command should lock up your dog solid. (could save it's life)

With time everything else will fall into place.

Hope you are using about a 25 foot long lead.

e-collar will work great BUT why?

HAVE FUN!

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Sharon
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Re: Transitioning Training

Post by Sharon » Sun May 21, 2023 11:14 am

Welcome back! Enjoy that new dog , and as you know you'll get good help here.
" We are more than our gender, skin color, class, sexuality or age; we are unlimited potential, and can not be defined by one label." quote A. Bartlett

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Garrison
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Re: Transitioning Training

Post by Garrison » Sun May 21, 2023 1:30 pm

Every single time you attempt to recall him (a known command) and you have no means of enforcing the command with either a check cord or a collar. You are not training him to come, you are effectively doing the exact opposite. He is learning he can hunt and listen on his terms and not yours, or worse associating the command with staying away.

Evan Graham would be my suggestion if you want to learn everything about retriever training. If the upland is all you are planning to do, George Hickox has some very good material and insight on collar conditioning and upland flushing work. Prior to his outstanding record with pointing dogs, he was originally a top level competitor with springer spaniels. There is a lot of crossover in what you are attempting to do. I believe he may have a video that is geared towards upland labradors that would be useful.

Gonehuntin, a member here is probably one of the very best resources on this subject. Hopefully he chimes in.

Garrison
Last edited by Garrison on Tue May 23, 2023 1:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Heaven goes by favor. If it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in.”
- Mark Twain-

Steve007
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Re: Transitioning Training

Post by Steve007 » Sun May 21, 2023 5:44 pm

Garrison, as is frequently the case, has given excellent advice, particularly in regard to finding a video or information pertaining to flushing dogs/labradors. Some here do not understand that there is a difference. Labradors as an example do not "whoa" and the command is never used. They don't "lock up solid." They sit on a whistle or voice with the command of "hup," though of course, you could use whatever command you wish. My original hunting plan some years ago -- before my head got turned by a fine Gordon Setter -- was to get a flushing dog, and I read and studied extensively how to train them. It isn't the same as training a pointing dog.

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gonehuntin'
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Re: Transitioning Training

Post by gonehuntin' » Mon May 22, 2023 6:38 am

You expected too much out of the dog in the field. You took a dog hunting in the field under high stress conditions without the dog being 100% in obedience. You will know the dog is 100% in obedience when you can add distractions and still have him obey you. Have your wife, kids, whatever, offer him a treat and when he starts for them command HERE and see if he immediately stops and returns to you. It may be while he's playing with the kids, or just romping in the yard, command HERE and enforce the command by CC. Yes, he should be wearing the CC whenever you are going to work with him so you always have control of him. NEVER GIVE A COMMAND YOU CAN'T ENFORCE OR ARE NOT WILLING TO ENFORCE.

Second, you did not expose him to birds correctly. A pheasant is a big, tough, intimidating bird. They can cut dog's with their spurs. You should have started him on clip wing pigeons in your yard, chasing, catching, retrieving to hand while you still had him on a check cord. Once his is retrieving with the check cord to hand in the yard, take him to a field somewhere that he hasn't been in before. Keep the CC on him and throw some clip wings for him in this new, strange, field, enforcing the retrieve to hand in the new area.

Once the dog is retrieving to hand well in a field (keep changing fields so all training isn't done in one field), he's ready for DEAD pheasant on a check cord. Same deal. Throw them in a few new fields, dog always on a CC.

If the dog graduates with this OK, it's time to try live birds on a game farm. Let him quarter and drag a 20' CC so he always thinks he's under your control. If he doesn't come to you when you call, hot foot it out there, grab the CC, and command HERE or COME, whatever you use, giving short tugs toward you with the CC.

I really hate to see you start him on an ecollar if you're only going tube using him a few times a year. I come from the days where we didn't have ecollars and all enforcements were manual. We'd have them in a fenced yard, call them, and if they didn't come, ping them in the butt with a BB gun or slingshot and marble. Those are short cuts to the CC but do require some skill to use. That's the thing about the ecollar. It's safe, humane, fast and accurate. Probably the greatest safety device ever invented for dog training. I would recommend the Garmin 550. I second the Evan Graham recommendation. His DVD's and books are the best on the market. If you buy them, FOLLOW THE PROGRAM HE LAYS OUT. Don't just take pieces of it and substitute other advice. That doesn't work. Always keep the intensities low on your ecollar, should you decide to go that route. When you get into higher intensities, there is always an opposite reaction to every action.

Always keep in mind that when training a dog, success on the game farm is NEVER important in the early stages; the dog faultlessly obeying commands is the success you are chasing. I'd always hunt him alone in the early stages, never with friends or other dog's. He has to figure it out on his own. Good Luck!!
LIFE WITHOUT BIRD DOGS AND FLY RODS REALLY ISN'T LIFE AT ALL.

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