Self hunting

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cheetome
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Location: North Dakota

Self hunting

Post by cheetome » Sun Oct 30, 2022 9:38 pm

I have a 5 month old gsp pup. I've hunted him several times this fall with very good bird work (quarters nicely, good range and holds point) and his cooperation has been good. This weekend however the second day out he decided to chase a hen after I flushed, then he came half way back and then off he went on a self hunt ignoring my every command. GPS showed him around 250 yards away. As I got close around 50 yards or so I know he could here the whistle and the tone on his collar he simply blew me off. I caught him healed him to the truck and ended his day. My question is do I just work a lot of obedience obedience and stay out of the field for a while or what do I do to correct this? I don't want to give him a chance to pull this behavior again.

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Garrison
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Re: Self hunting

Post by Garrison » Sun Oct 30, 2022 10:43 pm

Short answer, you should probably get a different dog.

If quartering within shotgun range performance is what you are after, a GSP was a very poor choice. Perhaps a flusher would be much better suited to your desires, but even then, it would need a whole lot more time than 5 months to figure things out. Your dog is a baby, why would you expect it to act like anything other than a puppy?

Your other options is, learn what a pointing dog is bred for, how they have been painstakingly bred to work, and learn to develop it accordingly. Even more important, develop it within reasonable expectations for its age. Your hunting needs/desires should be way down the list of priorities at this point, if you want your pup to eventually become a solid bird dog. The path you are on now is ripe for frustration and disappointment for all involved.

Most here would love to see a 5 month old head out to 250 yards, and beyond in pursuit of game, and I wouldn’t be trying to reel it in either. Do I want a dog to disobey a command? No, so I wouldn’t give it the opportunity as a puppy. I personally wouldn’t be saying much of anything to a 5 month old pup in the field, except an occasional lets go this way “whoop” and “here” with some praise when it was already coming my way for some water. At 5 months old, my pups can do no wrong in the field, and all I want them to do, is come and go with me, and find their own birds, or “self hunt” as you called it.

Garrison
“Heaven goes by favor. If it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in.”
- Mark Twain-

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gonehuntin'
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Re: Self hunting

Post by gonehuntin' » Mon Oct 31, 2022 6:12 am

He simply ignored the HERE command. Just because he's obedient in the yard, doesn't mean he is in the field. For him to be correctly trained, commands must be enforced in multiple locations. You have to just take him for walks in different locations, command HERE when he's a ways out, and reinforce it if he doesn't respond. Now, a couple of points:

1). He's a baby and chasing a bird for 250 yards is common behavior. He didn't come back because he was immersed in the scent and sight of the bird. Nothing to even worry about.

2). If you only reinforce while hunting and don't JUST TRAIN in multiple locations, you run the risk of him dreading to go to the field and hunt. It becomes a place of torture for him. Train and proof in the yard, hunt in the field.

3). Expect him to range anywhere from 50 to 300 yards. He's a GSP and points. That's what he's bred to do.

That's it. I think you're expecting too much from him. The issue of the recall is something you have created by not reinforcing in multiple, birdless, locations. Have fun, he's a baby.
LIFE WITHOUT BIRD DOGS AND FLY RODS REALLY ISN'T LIFE AT ALL.

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Garrison
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Re: Self hunting

Post by Garrison » Mon Oct 31, 2022 7:44 am

I forgot to mention two things:

1) If you carry a tethered live pigeon in your vest, it works great as a puppy lure. When they are further than you are comfortable with, (hopefully more than 50 yards and growing), get the pups attention and put it in the air to flap around a bit and reel it in before the pup can get to it. Put it back in the vest and keep moving like you would on a future hunt. The dog will quickly learn the fun is with you rather than just away from you (the heavy hand of the law) at this point.

2) Have fun with it, this is supposed to be enjoyable. Watching my pointing dogs work is one of the most enjoyable parts of my life. Any frustration derived from it, is 100% self inflicted.

Garrison
“Heaven goes by favor. If it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in.”
- Mark Twain-

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deseeker
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Re: Self hunting

Post by deseeker » Mon Oct 31, 2022 8:54 am

You said in your post you had an e-collar on him. You need to start reinforcing the come command with your e-collar. Start this at home. I'm assuming
you taught him to come at home by having him on a check cord and reeling him in when you called come. Instead of useing the check cord, use the ecollar after calling him with come(low setting that gets his attention.) After he gets it at home, take him to a bunch of different places with low cover and do the same thing. Once you have him consistent at 6 or 7 different locations, you can try him while you are hunting. 5 months old is old enough to
know that he can't blow you off on a come command. What happens if he is hunting towards a road with cars--you need to get him to come every time and the e-collar will do that :!: By the way you need to have him come ALL the way back to you, and then you give him his release command
to start hunting again(not just 1/2 way back). Sounds like he is a good pup and will turn into a good huntin' buddy. :D Good luck. JMO

cheetome
Rank: Junior Hunter
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Re: Self hunting

Post by cheetome » Mon Oct 31, 2022 9:05 am

Thank you all for the feedback I appreciate it. Deseeker - you hit my concern on the head. I had no concerns with chasing or range it was the blowing me off when I recalled him in a range I knew he could hear. I had not moved to stimulation on recall yet and expected the obedience part was what I needed. I will start recall in multiple locations with the collar today.

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deseeker
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Re: Self hunting

Post by deseeker » Mon Oct 31, 2022 2:42 pm

Start your recall AT HOME with the check cord on him along with the e-collar. Call him, start reeling him in useing the stimulation to get him started(if he is moving towards you don't use the stimulation). Once he gets the idea at home, then go to another location after he got it there, go to another location, and so on. The stimulation works just like a super long check cord. Just don't over charge him, only use the min amount to get him to come.
Once he figures out that you can always reach him, he'll quit testing you to see what he can get away with. Make sure he isn't pointing while you stimulate him. He needs to know he is getting stimulated for not coming and it isn't the birds shocking him. Again have fun and kill him some birds when he does it right. :D
I forgot to add that once he gets back to you, praise him for coming.

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Garrison
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Re: Self hunting

Post by Garrison » Mon Oct 31, 2022 3:49 pm

Cheetome,

Sorry I read your original post, and had to take care of some Dad duties before I responded. When I went back and gave it another read today, I obviously misinterpreted the part about 50 yards. Thought you were trying to keep the pup within 50 while hunting.

Have you collar conditioned a dog before? Those of us that haven’t, or haven’t in quite some time can easily breeze over some of the nuance required. It is worth some research or at least a brush up on a plan before you start. Attached was taken from an older post, and is from one of our most knowledgeable forum members. Worth a read before you jump in head first. May also help you develop some more pertinent questions for the members here.

Garrison


“You are asking the wrong question. Don't worry about it...everybody does. Everybody wants to know when and nobody wants to hear: "When the dog is ready"...but that is the right answer.

It is not about the dog's age. When discussing training, it is almost NEVER about the dog's age.


If the right question is.."How do I know when the dog is ready for the e-collar?" then the answer might be...

When the dog has demonstrated that it understands the command, when it understands the necessity for instant compliance and when it has demonstrated that understanding by executing the command reliably and repeatedly in the yard when on a checkcord.


It is, or should be, about the level of training the dog has attained. If a dog is 10 months old heeling and whoaing and coming reliably in the yard on a checkcord, then it is probably time to overlay the e-collar and phase out the checkcord for those commands.

Conversely, if the dog is three years old and does not heel or whoa or come reliably in the yard, an e-collar will probably do more harm than good in the hands of most amateur trainers.

It helps if you think of the e-collar as nothing more than a very long checkcord. If the dog does not know what the commands are and does not know what you want him to do, the stimulation from the e-collar will probably only confuse him, or make him shut down.

Think what...not when and you will be on the right track. Training is, or should be generally task oriented and additive in nature and is not particularly time sensitive for most things.


RayG


PS - If you focus on getting the dog to perform the requred behaviors with precision and quick response, you will be pleaantly surprised at just how quickly you and the dog can often progress through the steps. Focus on getting the what in place and the when will take care of itself.”
“Heaven goes by favor. If it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in.”
- Mark Twain-

17Hunter
Rank: Just A Pup
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Re: Self hunting

Post by 17Hunter » Tue Nov 01, 2022 5:28 am

Sounds like your pup is coming along nicely to me. I have a 5.5 month old GSP and he is just starting to put things together. We mostly grouse and woodcock hunt and just this past weekend I am finally starting to see him use his nose vs. just running the woods acting like a puppy. I have only shot 1 woodcock over him. He pointed it for all of about 3 seconds, so I did reward him for that. He has done really well on planted birds, but still figuring out wild birds.

Sounds like your 5 month old has things really figured out, enjoy!

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