1 year old GSP busting birds and not holding point

Post Reply
isaac.kulp
Rank: Just A Pup
Posts: 1
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2022 8:26 am

1 year old GSP busting birds and not holding point

Post by isaac.kulp » Tue Oct 25, 2022 12:01 pm

Hi folks,

I am new to the forum and new to owning a GSP. I have a 1 year old male GSP, Dutch. He has been trained with a local trainer and have worked with some NAVDHA guys as well. He has a great nose and is very birdy. No issues with anything else - he does fine with gunfire, retrieves nicely, his recall is really good as well.

The only thing I cannot get him to do is hold point on birds. I am in PA and all our birds are stocked here. I've done a lot of launcher sessions with him with chuckars and still cannot get him to hold a point for long before he rushes in and puts the bird in the air. When he was around 8 months old he would hold a nice, long point, from 15 yards away and let me go in and flush the bird.

So far, the past 4-5 times I have had him out on birds he will stop, point for two seconds or so, and either run in and bump the bird or if I put any pressure on him at all he will run in and bump the bird. Sometimes he creeps up a bit and I tell him to "woah" again but he continues to creep up.

Outside of the field, he will hold "woah" for over a minute. We work on woah every day and train with dead birds and other tools and he understands woah, but when he gets on live birds all bets are off and he is gone.

I've asked the trainer and they reccomended to just let him keep busting birds and eventually he will teach himself that he doesn't get the bird so he will stop on command and not bump the birds. The trainer said to not shoot any birds that he does not hold a point for, which I haven not. Dutch has put up over 30 birds this season already and I haven't shot a single one because he did not hold his point and busted the bird before I got a chance to flush or did not point at all and busted the birds.

Any tips for working through this? It is frustrating to keep hunting and not being able to shoot anything because he id busting and bumping birds. I've heard from a few folks that this is entirely normal and he will grow out of it and to just let him keep putting birds in the air and he will learn by trial and error.

Any help or advice is appreciated!

Thanks,

Isaac

User avatar
Sharon
GDF Junkie
Posts: 9113
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 4:46 pm
Location: Ontario,Canada

Re: 1 year old GSP busting birds and not holding point

Post by Sharon » Tue Oct 25, 2022 12:08 pm

Welcome to the forum. :) Free free to ask questions; you'll get good help here.
You'll need 5 posts approved before you can post and PM freely. This is to control spammers etc.
Let me know anytime I can help you in your use of the forum.

Sharon (mod)

PS Consider posting in the "General Chat- New member" category.
....................................................
"I've asked the trainer and they recommended to just let him keep busting birds and eventually he will teach himself that he doesn't get the bird so he will stop on command and not bump the birds. The trainer said to not shoot any birds that he does not hold a point for, which I haven not. Dutch has put up over 30 birds this season already and I haven't shot a single one because he did not hold his point and busted the bird before I got a chance to flush or did not point at all and busted the birds. " quote Isaac

You've rec'd good advice from the trainer .
That is what I always did, but your dog seems to be a slow learner . :) Time to take a few steps back imo and put on the check cord.
You'll get much better advice from the experts here.
" We are more than our gender, skin color, class, sexuality or age; we are unlimited potential, and can not be defined by one label." quote A. Bartlett

User avatar
gonehuntin'
GDF Junkie
Posts: 4867
Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2006 5:38 pm
Location: NE WI.

Re: 1 year old GSP busting birds and not holding point

Post by gonehuntin' » Tue Oct 25, 2022 12:34 pm

Many dog's will NEVER quit chasing birds if you don't make them quit. Shucks, it's fun! Keep reading.

First, if he creeps on whoa in the field, his whoa isn't solid. You have to TEMPT these dog's. There's an old trainers saying: "Train for the ridiculous and the tr ials come easy." You have taken him off the CC to soon as well. Get him back on the CC and let some wing clipped pigeons walk around him in the yard. Hold him for a minute or so, then heel him away, not letting him have a bird. Right now, because of the poor birds, he thinks he can catch every bird and he'll keep trying until you stop him.

Keep in mind, some of these dogs have so much prey drive that it exceeds their genetic trait (pointing). So, you have to MAKE him point and when he moves, pick him up roughly and set him back to the original position commanding "NO, WHOA!". Use as much pressure as needed to MAKE him stay steady.

In the field, don't give him free reign. Keep him close, within 20-30 yards. Close equals control, distance equals out-of-sight-out-of-mind. Yes, for a while, keeping him close, it will be like having a flushing breed but just persevere and have patience. It'll come but keep the sequence in order:First, reliability under temptation in the yard, next steadiness on a CC in the field, next steadiness while he's close his the field and finally, when he has proven himself a good citizen on all of the above, cut him loose.

Remember though that you will ALWAYS have to reinforce when he does things incorrectly. Grouse are horrible birds to teach this on; keep him on open field birds.
LIFE WITHOUT BIRD DOGS AND FLY RODS REALLY ISN'T LIFE AT ALL.

Steve007
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 880
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 12:14 pm
Location: St. Louis, MO

Re: 1 year old GSP busting birds and not holding point

Post by Steve007 » Tue Oct 25, 2022 1:26 pm

I think you have good advice from gonehunin', but here's a question. Can you put him on a whoa in your backyard, throw a handkerchief out in the wind -- especially on a windy day-- and have him hold his whoa? If not, he is not trained. You can't push him too far as a young dog, but you should be able to do this. Repeatedly. A lot of the old-time trainers who learned in the days of high bird count thought the dog would eventually pick things up just as the trainer suggests. Maybe. But meanwhile there are a lot of busted birds, and a few never do. For that matter, you can set things up with mechanical quail launchers -- pigeons are a lot cheaper than game birds -- and work with them that way. I'm surprised your trainer hasn't mentioned this.

I would go back and get him trained in this manner until he is 100% first, and then reinforce in the field, as others have mentioned.

jmez
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 43
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:06 pm

Re: 1 year old GSP busting birds and not holding point

Post by jmez » Tue Oct 25, 2022 9:35 pm

Dog would really benefit from wild birds. I'd start looking now for a trainer to take him to SD or ND next summer.

Agree with others that whoa isn't solid unless he obeys it under all circumstances. He's a year old, I wouldn't be concerned with it this season. You are putting a lot of pressure on a young dog around birds. Let him chase and have fun this year, he's still a "little kid.". I'd also have a 30 ft check cord on him every time he's turned loose.

Yes it can get frustrating not shooting birds. If that is your goal leave the dog at home and shoot or get a finished dog. Let him be a puppy and let him have fun. One thing you don't want is him catching a pen raised bird on the ground. Be careful with that.

Remote launchers and pigeons if you can't get on wild birds. You will need a lot of pigeons. It works better with two people. Bring him in on a check cord, across the scent cone. As soon as he smells the bird, if he doesn't point, pop the bird. If he points then moves, moves at all, pop the bird. You have to be able to read the dog. He'll figure it out.

I wouldn't start any of that until spring though. I'd just keep taking him out and let him do his own thing this year.

Sent from my moto g power (2021) using Tapatalk


slistoe
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3843
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2007 7:23 pm

Re: 1 year old GSP busting birds and not holding point

Post by slistoe » Tue Oct 25, 2022 11:10 pm

The only thing a 1 year old dog can do wrong in the field is to walk beside me.

User avatar
Garrison
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1213
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2011 5:29 pm
Location: Winchester CA

Re: 1 year old GSP busting birds and not holding point

Post by Garrison » Wed Oct 26, 2022 2:45 pm

I share the school of thought that I want my young dogs to figure it out, rather than be commanded to do so when it comes to on game performance. That said, I have the good fortune to have the time, space and wild birds required to let them figure it out without the chance of any major setbacks. If the dog was staunch and has reverted to this new behavior, it sounds like there is some pressure that has/is being exerted to trigger it, or more likely a training accident was mixed in at some point where the dog was able to get to a planted bird or one that petered out on the chase. I am not a fan of drop and shoot birds for this reason, especially for young dogs. I would stop wasting your money on planted game birds, source some hard flying pigeons, a launcher and learn about timing and art of launcher work. If this does not prove productive, it always has for me, then I would start applying the brakes that were previously installed away from game. I have always tried to keep pressure and game separated, in hopes of keeping my dogs looking high and tight on their birds. I applaud your steadfastness in not shooting, your dog will be better for it later.

My question is, if you are working with a trainer, and he or she has dogs doing exactly what you want yours to do, then why not keep working with them and ignore us?

Garrison
“Heaven goes by favor. If it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in.”
- Mark Twain-

Steve007
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 880
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 12:14 pm
Location: St. Louis, MO

Re: 1 year old GSP busting birds and not holding point

Post by Steve007 » Wed Oct 26, 2022 3:21 pm

Garrison wrote:
Wed Oct 26, 2022 2:45 pm
My question is, if you are working with a trainer, and he or she has dogs doing exactly what you want yours to do, then why not keep working with them and ignore us?
This is an excellent and valid question. Clearly you don't want to run around changing trainers at every setback or even getting information that would undermine what the trainer is telling you. However, it is worth noting -- as I am sure we all know-- that dogs are different, and there are trainers who only know one way to do things which is not appropriate for all dogs. The fact that someone has a dog -- or many-- that performs well does not inherently mean that he's capable of training all dogs to that level. For example, your previous comment of ceasing investing money on high-priced preserve birds and investing it instead in hard flying pigeons with launchers is a good one. Apparently the trainer has not suggested it. There are all kinds of trainers, and they are not all at the same level.

mask
Rank: 4X Champion
Posts: 632
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2012 11:05 am
Location: Idaho

Re: 1 year old GSP busting birds and not holding point

Post by mask » Thu Oct 27, 2022 6:46 pm

Sometimes with some dogs you just have to start over or back to basics. If this dog has all the prey drive and want to you need it is time to stop the chase. How you go about that is up to you. There is nothing to be gained by letting him bump birds.

User avatar
gonehuntin'
GDF Junkie
Posts: 4867
Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2006 5:38 pm
Location: NE WI.

Re: 1 year old GSP busting birds and not holding point

Post by gonehuntin' » Fri Oct 28, 2022 5:26 am

When I was training, and if a dog had a problem when it went home, nearly 100% of the time it was the OWNERS fault and not the dog's. Owners simply don't continue training the dog in the manner the trainer used. They don't understand or get lazy and stop enforcing commands the trainer has instilled in the dog. It is rarely that the dog has regressed, it's that the owner has re-trained the dog, unconsciously, to perform unwanted behaviors.

That's why a major part of a gun dog trainers income is derived from refresher programs before the next hunting season. The most difficult thing about having a well trained dog is keeping that dog well trained. It's something that the vast majority of people will NOT do. Except on the internet of course, where they're all flawless.
LIFE WITHOUT BIRD DOGS AND FLY RODS REALLY ISN'T LIFE AT ALL.

User avatar
Garrison
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1213
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2011 5:29 pm
Location: Winchester CA

Re: 1 year old GSP busting birds and not holding point

Post by Garrison » Fri Oct 28, 2022 10:01 am

gonehuntin' wrote:
Fri Oct 28, 2022 5:26 am
The most difficult thing about having a well trained dog is keeping that dog well trained.
I have never experienced this. Not because it isn’t true, more likely because I have never owned a well trained dog!😁

To your point, and crossing over into mine. I had a well known, very successful trainer/breeder tell me, “If the dog is decently bred, there isn’t a whole lot of training that I need to do. My job is to give him the opportunity to figure it out, and not screw him up.” To his point and yours, I think many unknowingly get in the way, and conflate “training” with wasted time fixing things they caused.

Others expect much more, and probably get much more in many aspects of their pointing dog’s performance than I do. I think getting that extra from the animal willingly, without the dog looking like a robot is the area that separates the really good trainers from the rest of us mortals. Especially retrievers, now that is some dog training!

I probably require more and “train” more behaviors around the house than I ever do in the field. In the field all I need is a dog that heels to and from the truck (if needed), comes when called (if needed), and kennels on command. The rest is up to him. Hunting to the front or heading to objectives is him, turning with me is him, holding his birds for as long as it takes is all him. I don’t think I had much to do with any of that, maybe shaped it a bit here and there. All my dogs have come to me with the ability to hunt and hold game. The only thing I and the trainer my current dog spent time with did, is put him on a ton of birds, not let him catch any, and didn’t reward him with birds that were not pointed and handled properly. I drive the truck, put the collar on, drop the tailgate and keep my mouth shut. Pretty easy program to follow and seems to enjoyably work out for us, and our strictly hunting needs.

Garrison
“Heaven goes by favor. If it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in.”
- Mark Twain-

User avatar
gonehuntin'
GDF Junkie
Posts: 4867
Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2006 5:38 pm
Location: NE WI.

Re: 1 year old GSP busting birds and not holding point

Post by gonehuntin' » Fri Oct 28, 2022 5:35 pm

Garrison, I think the difference here is breed difference. For setters and pointers I have always told people that if they hold point (most well bred dogs naturally do this), come when called and know what NO means, they are huntable. However, this is not true of versatile dog's where they are expected to lay at a blind, retrieve, hunt and point, and track.

Where it gets sticky with pointing breeds is the retrieving. Quite a few won't and that's a problem that does require training although as I've state MANY times on here, If a dog has no interest in retrieving, you can force him until hades freezes over and he will NEVER be a reliable retriever.

I absolutely and totally agree with you about commands trained around the house: most are trained there and it's where you need them the most. It's also where most training is ruined or watered down due to laziness to reinforce commands. I think it's a lot of work to keep a dog well trained that lives in the house. Yup. All of mine do.
LIFE WITHOUT BIRD DOGS AND FLY RODS REALLY ISN'T LIFE AT ALL.

Steve007
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 880
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 12:14 pm
Location: St. Louis, MO

Re: 1 year old GSP busting birds and not holding point

Post by Steve007 » Fri Oct 28, 2022 5:57 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:
Fri Oct 28, 2022 5:35 pm
Garrison, I think the difference here is breed difference. For setters and pointers I have always told people that if they hold point (most well bred dogs naturally do this), come when called and know what NO means, they are huntable. However, this is not true of versatile dog's where they are expected to lay at a blind, retrieve, hunt and point, and track.

I have to give thought to this. My knowledge of "versatile" is limited to GWP, but that's generally what is meant by a versatile, as vizslas and shorthairs are are a little underequipped coatwise for laying in a blind, insulated jackets notwithstanding. I hunt only upland birds-- though we have knocked down some ducks, usually by accident -- and the ones I've had -- admittedly, well-bred -- are natural bird dogs that adhere to your description. I expect on a percentage basis, almost all well-bred wirehairs are natural bird dogs and most are used only for that purpose, and there are many FCs among them. I owned one myself. They do have to pass a water retrieving test to get the FC beyond the pure field trial requirements.

I do expect more of my dogs than just being "huntable", as we work on hand signals so I can direct them, and we do serious AKC competition obedience work daily when we are not hunting. We have found it to be of great benefit under all circumstances, including fieldwork and definitely around the house. Plus we compete, so they have an extra job. Recommended, imo. And you also see that dogs of all breeds including distinctly non-hunting ones can be reliable retrievers even under great distraction if trained properly.

User avatar
Garrison
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1213
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2011 5:29 pm
Location: Winchester CA

Re: 1 year old GSP busting birds and not holding point

Post by Garrison » Fri Oct 28, 2022 6:20 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:
Fri Oct 28, 2022 5:35 pm
Garrison, I think the difference here is breed difference. For setters and pointers I have always told people that if they hold point (most well bred dogs naturally do this), come when called and know what NO means, they are huntable. However, this is not true of versatile dog's where they are expected to lay at a blind, retrieve, hunt and point, and track.

Where it gets sticky with pointing breeds is the retrieving. Quite a few won't and that's a problem that does require training although as I've state MANY times on here, If a dog has no interest in retrieving, you can force him until hades freezes over and he will NEVER be a reliable retriever.

I absolutely and totally agree with you about commands trained around the house: most are trained there and it's where you need them the most. It's also where most training is ruined or watered down due to laziness to reinforce commands. I think it's a lot of work to keep a dog well trained that lives in the house. Yup. All of mine do.
Does make sense, and a distinction not often considered. I wouldn’t begin to argue that properly training a versatile dog or retriever to the levels you have, doesn’t require much more know how, versatility, and actual training than I am capable of or willing to muster. Not too many around like yourself who have successfully done all three.

Garrison
Last edited by Garrison on Fri Oct 28, 2022 8:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Heaven goes by favor. If it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in.”
- Mark Twain-

User avatar
gonehuntin'
GDF Junkie
Posts: 4867
Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2006 5:38 pm
Location: NE WI.

Re: 1 year old GSP busting birds and not holding point

Post by gonehuntin' » Fri Oct 28, 2022 7:38 pm

This is something I wrote a long time ago for new puppy owners. I've re-read it and all still apply today, regardless of breed. It kind of ties right in with this discussion.


AN OPPORTUNITY TO TRAIN

If our hunting dog is also our house dog, we are given 1,440 opportunities each day to train that dog. Those are the number of minutes in one day and every minute we are with that dog is provides an opportunity to train that dog. It is a tremendous advantage, when done correctly, that every Pro wishes they had, but none do. There are a few basic steps to follow that will make the training process easier and faster, and more enjoyable for both you and the pup.

1. Be consistent. Every time you issue a command, use the same word for the command and enforce that command in the same manner. If you get lazy and let a pup slip a command in the house, he’ll slip it in the field. It will be your fault, you have taught him to do it.

2. Don’t be a nag. One word, one command, one time, one enforcement. Enforcement is not a dirty word. Enforcement can be a word, a tug on the collar, a slap on the butt. It should rarely with a pup, ever be severe. Remember, puppy’s are baby’s too.

3. For every command given, the dog must be released. I like OK though a lot of people don’t. It doesn’t matter what the release command is, as long as the dog is not allowed to go from a command to a different activity on his own. Every thing the dog does should be on command, unless he’s playing in a fenced yard.

4. NO! It is the first command a pup should learn and the most important. NO! You can’t run away. NO! You can’t eat Mama’s slipper. NO! you can’t take a sandwich off the counter. No is the only command that should be reinforced with pressure. A slap on the butt never hurt any pup but a slap on the nose can and will create had shyness.

5. Never but never, drag a pup. Move the pup with coaxing and gently tugs of the check cord.Those tugs will later easily transfer to taps with the electric collar. Every hunting dog should be an electric collar trained dog. It may and probably will some day, save his life and save you a world of frustration.

6. Biting. Ouch! Never! Never let a pup bite you and to this rule there are no exceptions. Play biting now MAY become dominance biting later. Getting bit hurts. Even in play, when pup bites, pinch his upper jowls against his sharp little canines and command NO!. I can’t stress how important this is.

7. Squeaky toys. Pup’s love them, I hate them, if they squeak. They feel like a bird and also sound like a bird or animal in distress when bitten or squeezed. If you want to create a hard mouthed dog later, a squeaky toy now may do it. I take either a knitting needle or awl and puncture the squeaker, thereby rendering it squeak-less. Letting pup carry them around is fine, it will promote retrieving desire later. Just don’t let them crush and squeak.

8. Work with multiple commands, never just one. If you only teach a pup a single command, that command will become his default response. For example, if the first or only command you teach the pup is “HERE”, then when you begin “WHOA” the pup will automatically  come to you because “HERE” has become his default response. Work on multiple commands at the same time. HERE, WHOA, KENNEL, NO, HEEL. Mix them up as
you play with the pup and he will not develop default responses. It is easy to mix HERE,
HEEL and WHOA together as you walk pup around the yard on a leash.

9. Never lose your temper. A harsh word can be as devastating as a hard slap. Train in an
even voice and move in smooth motions. Harsh words and fast motions scare a pup and
can result in a bad training attitude.

10. Always, always, have the pup under control. In the house, outside, at play, the pup always wears a check cord. If a pup is never given an opportunity to disobey, performing correctly will become habit. If a pup gets away with something once, guaranteed, he’ll try it again. You can’t have a pup under control if it has the run of the house. Either kennel him or keep him on a check cord. It will reduce damage in the house and make housebreaking much faster and easier.

There you go. Those are ten steps that probably every professional trainer follows and it’s why their dog’s are so happy and reliably trained. Every well trained dog is the result of consistency in training.
LIFE WITHOUT BIRD DOGS AND FLY RODS REALLY ISN'T LIFE AT ALL.

User avatar
Garrison
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1213
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2011 5:29 pm
Location: Winchester CA

Re: 1 year old GSP busting birds and not holding point

Post by Garrison » Sat Oct 29, 2022 8:33 am

gonehuntin' wrote:
Fri Oct 28, 2022 7:38 pm
This is something I wrote a long time ago for new puppy owners. I've re-read it and all still apply today, regardless of breed. It kind of ties right in with this discussion.


AN OPPORTUNITY TO TRAIN

If our hunting dog is also our house dog, we are given 1,440 opportunities each day to train that dog. Those are the number of minutes in one day and every minute we are with that dog is provides an opportunity to train that dog. It is a tremendous advantage, when done correctly, that every Pro wishes they had, but none do. There are a few basic steps to follow that will make the training process easier and faster, and more enjoyable for both you and the pup.

1. Be consistent. Every time you issue a command, use the same word for the command and enforce that command in the same manner. If you get lazy and let a pup slip a command in the house, he’ll slip it in the field. It will be your fault, you have taught him to do it.

2. Don’t be a nag. One word, one command, one time, one enforcement. Enforcement is not a dirty word. Enforcement can be a word, a tug on the collar, a slap on the butt. It should rarely with a pup, ever be severe. Remember, puppy’s are baby’s too.

3. For every command given, the dog must be released. I like OK though a lot of people don’t. It doesn’t matter what the release command is, as long as the dog is not allowed to go from a command to a different activity on his own. Every thing the dog does should be on command, unless he’s playing in a fenced yard.

4. NO! It is the first command a pup should learn and the most important. NO! You can’t run away. NO! You can’t eat Mama’s slipper. NO! you can’t take a sandwich off the counter. No is the only command that should be reinforced with pressure. A slap on the butt never hurt any pup but a slap on the nose can and will create had shyness.

5. Never but never, drag a pup. Move the pup with coaxing and gently tugs of the check cord.Those tugs will later easily transfer to taps with the electric collar. Every hunting dog should be an electric collar trained dog. It may and probably will some day, save his life and save you a world of frustration.

6. Biting. Ouch! Never! Never let a pup bite you and to this rule there are no exceptions. Play biting now MAY become dominance biting later. Getting bit hurts. Even in play, when pup bites, pinch his upper jowls against his sharp little canines and command NO!. I can’t stress how important this is.

7. Squeaky toys. Pup’s love them, I hate them, if they squeak. They feel like a bird and also sound like a bird or animal in distress when bitten or squeezed. If you want to create a hard mouthed dog later, a squeaky toy now may do it. I take either a knitting needle or awl and puncture the squeaker, thereby rendering it squeak-less. Letting pup carry them around is fine, it will promote retrieving desire later. Just don’t let them crush and squeak.

8. Work with multiple commands, never just one. If you only teach a pup a single command, that command will become his default response. For example, if the first or only command you teach the pup is “HERE”, then when you begin “WHOA” the pup will automatically  come to you because “HERE” has become his default response. Work on multiple commands at the same time. HERE, WHOA, KENNEL, NO, HEEL. Mix them up as
you play with the pup and he will not develop default responses. It is easy to mix HERE,
HEEL and WHOA together as you walk pup around the yard on a leash.

9. Never lose your temper. A harsh word can be as devastating as a hard slap. Train in an
even voice and move in smooth motions. Harsh words and fast motions scare a pup and
can result in a bad training attitude.

10. Always, always, have the pup under control. In the house, outside, at play, the pup always wears a check cord. If a pup is never given an opportunity to disobey, performing correctly will become habit. If a pup gets away with something once, guaranteed, he’ll try it again. You can’t have a pup under control if it has the run of the house. Either kennel him or keep him on a check cord. It will reduce damage in the house and make housebreaking much faster and easier.

There you go. Those are ten steps that probably every professional trainer follows and it’s why their dog’s are so happy and reliably trained. Every well trained dog is the result of consistency in training.
👍🏻
“Heaven goes by favor. If it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in.”
- Mark Twain-

RyanDoolittle
Rank: Champion
Posts: 301
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2015 11:39 pm

Re: 1 year old GSP busting birds and not holding point

Post by RyanDoolittle » Sun Oct 30, 2022 9:56 am

jmez wrote:
Tue Oct 25, 2022 9:35 pm
Dog would really benefit from wild birds. I'd start looking now for a trainer to take him to SD or ND next summer.

The best piece of advice given and well worth every penny it will cost. Nothing trains a dog better than wild birds.

Willie T
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 65
Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2022 9:04 am

Re: 1 year old GSP busting birds and not holding point

Post by Willie T » Fri Nov 04, 2022 2:58 pm

Did your dog catch a bird on its own?

User avatar
DonF
GDF Junkie
Posts: 4020
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2011 6:09 pm
Location: Antelope, Ore

Re: 1 year old GSP busting birds and not holding point

Post by DonF » Sun Nov 06, 2022 7:34 pm

Your dog does what you allow it to do! It simply want's the bird, your job is to show it how. Remote traps guve you the opertunity to expose your dog to wild birds ways! You need to learn how to do that. Bring the dog in cross wind, check cord makes it easier but without the ck cord is much more natural. With the check cord bring him across the scent cone and as he reachs it, just pop the bird, do not give him a moment to point! Pop the bird and keep your mouth shut! Nothing happens there the wild bird won't also do. Without the check cord, let him go and he get's withing about ten feet of the bird, scent cone or not, pop the bird, keep your mouth shut and go on. After about five or six poped birds in the scent cone you dog will probably point before you can launch, don't launch! Now you have a dog staanding, don't say anything simply go aroung him to flush the bird. The dog will movw while you do that. Soonas it moves at all pop the bird and go on, KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT! What the dog is learning is that what cause's the bird to leave is it's own movement. While your going in to flush, do lot look for the bird, KEEP YOUR EYE'S ON THE DOG, it moves at all pop the bird and go on, KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT! Couple times like that and the dog will let you get closer to the bird. When that happen's go around and flush the bird before the dog moves. Do not make a show of flushing. That is used by many to encourage the dog to fail so they can disipline the dog thinking they are teaching it what they want, don't do that, make the dog succede. Going around the dog means just that. Do not go to the dog and walk past it. You do and ypu are setting the dog up to fail, you walk past close and the dog is actually going with you! Don't set your dog up to fail! All any of this is doing is exposing the dog to what will hapopen with a wild bird, nothing more! Do not use game farm birds for doing this. Often they have a habit of flying a ways and sitting down, you dog can and will catch them, pay attention to what your teaching! Your dog has no idea going it what any wild bird smells like. alkl it knows is it likes what it smells. If your dog won't do it right on a pigeon, it won't do it right on any bird!

On whoa, do not whoa your dog to a bird. Whoa means stop and stand still, nothing else. But do teach it to whoa at flush, kill amd walking bird. To turn it over on the bird, get him back in the yard on a check cord. Move him around and whoa him. Get him stopped anf then release a bird to fly off. He will move, be ready for it. Whoa him immediately! Continue doing that moving the whoa command and release closer till simply releasing the bird stops him. You are teaching him a bird flying means whoa. Once he has it down move to a fresh killed bird and use the same routine. Whoa, toss the dead bird down and do it till you can drop the bird say nothing and the dog stops. Hardest part for last, live bird, flight feathers pulled and hobbled.Everything is the same except when you dorp the live bird the forst few times, drop it behind you. Then you need to be between the dog and bird for a few times. Once you have the dog stopping to the bird being dropped, drop it at your side and then toss it a bit. What you are actualy doing is teaching the dog a dead bird means whoa, a bird flushing means whoa and a bird walking means whoa. As you move along test him by simply popping the bird now and then before he can point it. Teach your dog these thing's and the whole thing becomes less stressful! Teach your dog.
I pity the man that has never been loved by a dog!

RayGubernat
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3308
Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2008 11:47 am
Location: Central DE

Re: 1 year old GSP busting birds and not holding point

Post by RayGubernat » Sat Nov 12, 2022 7:56 pm

I read through your original post a couple times before I posted anything and then read through the comments you received.

It seems tha your youngster was doing it right at a relatively early age and then was allowed to regress. That being the case, I think some gentle measure of discipline is in order. DonF's advice is sound as is Goneuntin's and both approaches are very similar to how I do things as well. I am very much in favor of putting my hands on dog to help it learn. I think physically handling youngster is calming and reassuring to them, while at the same time letting them know YOU are right there and in charge.

I would suggest doing one additional training regimen and that is heel/whoa drills in the yard after the manner of Paul Long. Five minutes a session, morning and evening. I use a waxed rope(pigging string), but if you have a Smith wonder lead that works even better.

One thing that I would do with a dog such as yours, in addition to the regimen that DonF suggested, is to physically pick the dog up, after you have launched the bird it crowded or walked in on and stopped the dog. I would then carry the dog back several feet and place it gently down on the ground, front feet first. Then I would style the dog up...gently. Step back and stand there. Five minutes is not too long. If the dog lets down, figets or shuffles its feet, go back in and style the dog up again. After you have worked the do in this manner a few sessions, you could put the flat of your hand on the dog's butt and push forward after styling up. The dog will invariably dig in to resist the forward pressure. Another tactic is toset the dog up and then gently raise the dog's back end by putting your hand in between its back legs and lifting. With the dog now on its two front legs, exert gentle forward pressure, which will casue the dog to stiffen yo and resist. Then GENTLY lower the dog back down and finish with a gently push on the rump as previously described.

Both tactics serve to tighten the dog up and make it resist forward motion...which is PRECISELY the message you want in the dog's brain.

A bird dog has to find the bird, then point the bird and then,,,WAIT FOR YOU TO GET THERE. There are times when it may tak fifteen or twenty minutes to get to a dog on point. They gotta stand for as long as it takes for you to get there and do your part. They gotta understand that it is YOUR job to flush and shoot the bird. No exceptions, no excuses. They gotta stand there...or you got nothin'.

Take your time, be consistent, insistent and persistent. Use as little pressure as you can to get the performance you require, but in the end, the dog should stand through flush...and shot... and fall. If you decide later to allow the dog to break earlier than that... you can, but you should aim your training for steadiness throughshot and fall with a verbal or physical release for the retrieve.

Ifi can do it...you can too. One step at a time. Remember...consistent...insistent...persistent. Also remember thatpatience is a virtue that most of us(myself especially) included, do not posess enough of and that a healthy sense of humor will seve you well with a young bird dog. Better to laugh than get angry. Much better.

RayG

User avatar
roaniecowpony
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 817
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 10:05 am
Location: westcoast

Re: 1 year old GSP busting birds and not holding point

Post by roaniecowpony » Tue Jan 03, 2023 6:53 am

I hope the original poster has found a direction that is productive in solving his problem.

I have a friend with a young (3 YO?) GSP female with similar problems to the OP's. He got her 2 years ago. Her prior training is basically an unknown, if any at all. My friend worked with an experienced buddy who helped him introduce the e-collar to the dog last season. They seem to have done a good job. The dog is upbeat and not collar shy. He was frustrated when I spoke with him a couple months ago. He has had a couple GSPs in a row that learned "old school" by hunting and seemed to be quick learners. This dog is looking more like formal training is needed to get what he wants.

The dog has busted some birds, hunting well out of range (Beyond Visual Range, 400 plus yds) will often not hold point for long, and will chase a busted or volunteered bird. He's looking to get the dog to hunt relatively close, say 150-250 yds (my interpretation), to stop on scent/sight and hold point until he walks in and flushes the bird, retrieve. He doesn't care about steady to wing and shot. The dog is hunting dead and retrieving pretty well.

My friend is older, patient, a prolific reader and good study. I sent him my copy of Hickox's Great Beginnings (pointer version) video. I spoke with him yesterday and he got it in the mail, but hasn't watched it yet. I want him to watch the whole thing before we talk specifics about what to do with the dog, so he'll understand at least one formal system of training start to finish.

I've taken a couple HIckox and Smith classes years ago. But it's been a long time since I had to do any training. It was on my last pointer. My current pointer is in his twilight years and I'm not having to put any pressure on him as he seems to know his job from all the years of experience and his past formal training. In fact, after 3 years off from covid, first time out, we hunted with a pro guide on an invitation from the group, my pointer found the first covey when running with the guide's Braques, held steady to flush and shot and had to be released (brag :D :oops: ). But when I had issues of steady with my last pointer in the field, I took her back to the board training Hickox uses, then checkcord and launchers. It was effective with that dog, but it was trained from the ground up the Hickox methods.

Looking for some input to help a friend. But, taking the dog to a pro or starting a training program from scratch is unlikely.

gypsy
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 58
Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2021 9:52 am

Re: 1 year old GSP busting birds and not holding point

Post by gypsy » Fri Jan 20, 2023 11:51 am

Best wishes, but busting birds is what one year old dogs do.

The first time your pup comes sliding up to a stop and does the "hook point" I hope you are ready and do not miss!

That will be a very happy day.

Advise: Don't over correct and develop a neurotic dog. Take a deep breath and laugh. The three most import commands are whoa, whoa and whoa. These commands are taught before you ever get into the hunting field. When your pup hits the ground use the whoa command several times before it ever engages any birds; therefore learning who is in control. Remember to walk up to your pup and then give your release command and PRAISE. The pup really wants to please you.

Post Reply