Gun Conditioning Question

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gun conditioning question

1. Shot then throw.
0
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2. Throw and shot with bird in the air.
8
100%
 
Total votes: 8

Hoody32
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Gun Conditioning Question

Post by Hoody32 » Wed Jul 20, 2022 1:09 pm

I am working on conditioning my 9 month old Novia Scotia Duck Tolling Retriever to gun fire. I am basing my training off of the Standing Stone Kennels videos. I am in the process of trying to trap pigeons to aid in this training, but have been using dummies with grouse wings attached because my dog has a huge drive to retrieve them and I don't have live birds yet.

We started with .22 blanks and 20 gauge primer only loads and have worked in to about 30 yards. We are shooting while the dummy is still in the air and the dog is intently in chase. At the distance of about 30 yards and in, upon gunshot, the dog will often stop running at the sound of the gunshot, look the direction of the shot for a second, but continue on searching for the down dummy with her tail wagging. We were getting the same reaction at 100 yards with live 20 gauge loads (only tried twice)

We have about five days of training in. My dog is very excited about seeing the gun at home and the idea that we are going to go out to shoot and chase the dummy.

At the end of one training day, I had picked up some 12 gauge blanks and wanted to see the sound difference between them and 20 gauge loads. I left the dog I the truck with my wife and kids. I shot a 12 gauge blank and a live 20 gauge at 100 yards + from the truck. My dog tried to jump out the window in excitement to get to me, believing there was a dummy to chase. At this point I am only seeing positive associations to the gun fire.

My questions- Is this a bad reaction? Should I be putting more time in with blanks/primer loads at a further distance? Is it okay to keep moving with louder loads?

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Garrison
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Re: Gun Conditioning Question

Post by Garrison » Wed Jul 20, 2022 2:48 pm

In my opinion any reaction at all to the gun is cause for concern, it necessitates slowing things down and reevaluating what you are doing. I would wait/want some hard flying birds, so distance isn’t dictated by arm strength, you don’t have to rely on someone else’s timing and they hold a dog’s attention better.

“At the distance of about 30 yards and in, upon gunshot, the dog will often stop running at the sound of the gunshot, look the direction of the shot for a second” is not what I would describe as “all positive”. I am unfamiliar with the program you mentioned, are they using dummies or live birds?

Going too fast and tempting failure by cutting corners can take you much much longer than going too slow.

Garrison
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Re: Gun Conditioning Question

Post by Hoody32 » Wed Jul 20, 2022 4:05 pm

Is it better to spend some time working at a distance where there is no reaction, or should I keep working the distance down until there is a reaction?

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SwitchGrassWPG
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Re: Gun Conditioning Question

Post by SwitchGrassWPG » Wed Jul 20, 2022 4:11 pm

If you are associating the dummy throw with the shot and there's some sort of delay between the throw and the shot, I wouldn't be worried about the dog's reaction. Without watching your sequence, it sounds like there's a delayed shot and the dog is looking for an additional dummy.
It sounds like your dog has a lot of desire and sees the gun and hearing the shot as something they want to be involved with. Get the dog some birds, pigeons are best, so it can learn a bird in the mouth is the reward for putting it all together.
Only thing worse than a bad dog is no dog at all...

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Garrison
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Re: Gun Conditioning Question

Post by Garrison » Thu Jul 21, 2022 12:46 am

Hoody32 wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 4:05 pm
Is it better to spend some time working at a distance where there is no reaction, or should I keep working the distance down until there is a reaction?
You are looking for the dog to have a positive association between a shot fired and a bird, it is very easy to get that association reversed. It is also very hard to change it when a negative association is instilled. I have experienced working through this with a dog that was given to me because he was made gun shy. It took a long time and a lot of birds to work through it. Distance during the process is only one part of the equation. You are going to eventually need no reaction except for intense focus on the possibility of getting a bird while sitting directly next to your shot, so it can mark birds. A dog looking over it’s shoulder at gunfire is not going to know where very many ducks land.

They are not a retriever kennel or trainers, but I would Google Perfection Kennels and gun acclimation and gun shy. Watch some of their videos/discussions on the process. I know they had a few posted on Facebook. It is well worth your time.

Garrison
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Re: Gun Conditioning Question

Post by Coveyrise64 » Thu Jul 21, 2022 9:50 am

Garrison wrote:
Thu Jul 21, 2022 12:46 am
....I would Google Perfection Kennels and gun acclimation and gun shy. Watch some of their videos/discussions on the process. I know they had a few posted on Facebook. It is well worth your time.
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Re: Gun Conditioning Question

Post by Swampbilly » Thu Jul 21, 2022 12:24 pm

Adopted the mindset long ago that gunfire all by itself is really useless without something for pup to associate it with and we introduce with live birds from a distance and work our way closer.
Getting pup good and birdy first starting from around 100yds.
You seem to be on the right track if I read right, but get some birds!

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Re: Gun Conditioning Question

Post by Sharon » Thu Jul 21, 2022 1:19 pm

X2 Well said.
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Re: Gun Conditioning Question

Post by Swampbilly » Thu Jul 21, 2022 3:15 pm

Hoody32 wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 1:09 pm
We are shooting while the dummy is still in the air
and the dog is intently in chase. At the distance of about 30 yards and in, upon gunshot, the dog will often stop running at the sound of the gunshot, look the direction of the shot for a second, but continue on searching for the down dummy with her tail wagging. We were getting the same reaction at 100 yards with live 20 gauge loads
It's good the gunshot is while bumper is still in the air, but you need to have it,(the gunshot), when the mark thrown is at the highest point of it's arc right before it begins falling and your dog should be at HEEL at SIT watching the mark from your side, then SENT on its name after it hits the ground, not gunshot while running.
.
Gunfire while the dog is running to a mark is an unwanted distraction, can create some real problems, and too dangerous with shot flyers.

You want steady to shot-
Steady to fall-
SEND the dog.

You want your dog to mark is this correct?

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Re: Gun Conditioning Question

Post by gonehuntin' » Thu Jul 21, 2022 8:58 pm

Here's an old post of mine I did on gun shyness. Breaking to a gun is exactly the same.



A dog is very much like a person. Your fear of one thing can be so great, it outweighs
your desire to do another thing.

In this instance, your dog would love to retrieve, but something about that loud noise
(gunshot) has him so concerned, that the retrieve becomes secondary to his fear of the
noise.

So how do we counter this? There are two ways really, one using birds and the other to
just subject him to the loud noise in a pleasant surrounding over, and over, and over, and
over until he learns not to fear the noise.

I'll try and explain it so you understand.
Your dog is a BIRD DOG. He was bred, born, made, to hunt and retrieve birds. That IS
his life. It isn't being petted, watching TV, or eating. It is getting a bird in his mouth and
retrieving that bird. That desire overcomes every other desire the dog has, the desire to
eat, the desire to breathe, nearly the desire for life. It is the most powerful driving force
the dog possesses. Don't believe that? When the dog is eating, yell mark and throw a bird.
I guarantee he'll bolt from the food dish and grab the bumper. Same if he's on a female
breeding her and you throw a bird. I guarantee if he hasn't locked up yet, he'll jump off,
get that bird and return to his other favorite past time.

So what does this mean to us? It mean that we channel his most powerful drive and use it
to cure his greatest fear. By first throwing clip wings with no shot and letting that drive
surface and grow, and letting the dog have fun, we enhance the drive God has given him
then cure him of the gunshyness by using it. It is the fastest method I know of to cure a
dog of gunshyness yet build that incredible desire. If you get impatient and rush it, it
won't work. Here are the steps in order. There is no time sequence. You proceed only to
the next step when the dog is completing the step he's on at 100%. If you proceed too fast,
you can lose all of the steps and have to start all over.

1). Get the dog birdy. With no gun involved, have a helper throw a clip wing pigeon and
let the dog retrieve it. Start short at 50 yards and work out to 100 yards. Never throw the
birds so many times the dog wants to quit. About 10 times a session is fine. If you don't
have a helper, throw them yourself.

2). Good. He's birdy now. You have to restrain him and when you let him go, he goes flat
out for each pigeon, grabs it and comes back. He is insane to get the birds. Now we add a
gun and a helper. Have a helper stand 100 yards out in a BARE field with a riffle and .22
blanks. Start with a .22 crimp then go to the regular .22 blank. Have the helper throw the
bird in the air without firing and send the dog. Have the helper yell MARK before
throwing the bird to get the dog's attention. After the dog makes a couple of retrieves,
have the helper yell MARK, fire the riffle in the air with the muzzle pointed away from
the dog and send the dog while the bird is still in the air. You use a riffle because the
report is softer than with a pistol. A pistol directs the sound out each side and they're so
loud they even hurt your ears. Use a riffle. Did the dog do it OK? Did he show any
hesitation? If all went well, throw another six birds, firing a shot when the bird is in the
air and sending the dog.

3).Step three is exactly the same as step two, but shorten the helper to 90 yards. Each time
you progress to the next step, shorten it up by 10 yards. If the dog shows any hesitation,
back up 10 yards.

4). Now 80 yards.

5). Now 70 yards.

6) Now 60 yards.

7) Now 50 yards.

8). Now 40 yards.

9) Now 30 yards.

10) Now 20 yards.

11) Now, for step 11, get rid of the helper. Now you take the clip wing, throw it, and
when the dog is in full pursuit, fire the gun with the muzzle directed away from the dog..
He should completely ignore the shot and dive for the bird.

12)Now repeat step 11 EXCEPT don't shoot the gun when the bird is in the air. Wait until
the dog pounces for the bird, his full attention on the bird, and fire the gun. Timing is
crucial and is everything here.

13). The final step with the .22 is to sit the dog, throw the bird with the dog sitting at your
side, and shoot the gun when the bird is in the air and send the dog. Did everything go
OK? Then we're now ready to introduce the shotgun.

To introduce the shotgun back right up to step 1 and do the whole 13 steps over again.
Sound boring and that it will take you a long time? It is and it does. That's why you pay a
pro so much to cure a gun shy dog. If the dog is not a bird-a-holic, you won't cure him by
this method. If he isn't a bird-a-holic, dump him because that isn't the dog you want
anyhow.

With a new pup, you don't have to be this careful, this is how a gun shy dog is broken. If
you get a new pup you break him to the gun differently, but that's for another thread.

Patience. If you have no patience and
aren't willing to follow a plan, you'll never train a dog. Patience, common sense, a
progressive program, understanding, discipline, a good dog. That's dog training.
LIFE WITHOUT BIRD DOGS AND FLY RODS REALLY ISN'T LIFE AT ALL.

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Re: Gun Conditioning Question

Post by Hoody32 » Fri Jul 22, 2022 3:29 am

[/quote]
You want your dog to mark is this correct?
[/quote]

Based upon my limited knowledge, this seems like a waterfowl dog technique? My goal is to have a flushing upland birddog, despite the "duck toller" name, so long answer short, no.

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Re: Gun Conditioning Question

Post by Swampbilly » Fri Jul 22, 2022 10:15 am

Hoody32 wrote:
Fri Jul 22, 2022 3:29 am
You want your dog to mark is this correct?
[/quote]

Based upon my limited knowledge, this seems like a waterfowl dog technique? My goal is to have a flushing upland birddog, despite the "duck toller" name, so long answer short, no.
[/quote]
Ahh..I gotcha', sorry buddy I didnt pick up on that.
Check out Gonehuntins post he lays it out in more detail 😊

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Garrison
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Re: Gun Conditioning Question

Post by Garrison » Fri Jul 22, 2022 12:50 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:
Thu Jul 21, 2022 8:58 pm
Here's an old post of mine I did on gun shyness. Breaking to a gun is exactly the same.



A dog is very much like a person. Your fear of one thing can be so great, it outweighs
your desire to do another thing.

In this instance, your dog would love to retrieve, but something about that loud noise
(gunshot) has him so concerned, that the retrieve becomes secondary to his fear of the
noise.

So how do we counter this? There are two ways really, one using birds and the other to
just subject him to the loud noise in a pleasant surrounding over, and over, and over, and
over until he learns not to fear the noise.

I'll try and explain it so you understand.
Your dog is a BIRD DOG. He was bred, born, made, to hunt and retrieve birds. That IS
his life. It isn't being petted, watching TV, or eating. It is getting a bird in his mouth and
retrieving that bird. That desire overcomes every other desire the dog has, the desire to
eat, the desire to breathe, nearly the desire for life. It is the most powerful driving force
the dog possesses. Don't believe that? When the dog is eating, yell mark and throw a bird.
I guarantee he'll bolt from the food dish and grab the bumper. Same if he's on a female
breeding her and you throw a bird. I guarantee if he hasn't locked up yet, he'll jump off,
get that bird and return to his other favorite past time.

So what does this mean to us? It mean that we channel his most powerful drive and use it
to cure his greatest fear. By first throwing clip wings with no shot and letting that drive
surface and grow, and letting the dog have fun, we enhance the drive God has given him
then cure him of the gunshyness by using it. It is the fastest method I know of to cure a
dog of gunshyness yet build that incredible desire. If you get impatient and rush it, it
won't work. Here are the steps in order. There is no time sequence. You proceed only to
the next step when the dog is completing the step he's on at 100%. If you proceed too fast,
you can lose all of the steps and have to start all over.

1). Get the dog birdy. With no gun involved, have a helper throw a clip wing pigeon and
let the dog retrieve it. Start short at 50 yards and work out to 100 yards. Never throw the
birds so many times the dog wants to quit. About 10 times a session is fine. If you don't
have a helper, throw them yourself.

2). Good. He's birdy now. You have to restrain him and when you let him go, he goes flat
out for each pigeon, grabs it and comes back. He is insane to get the birds. Now we add a
gun and a helper. Have a helper stand 100 yards out in a BARE field with a riffle and .22
blanks. Start with a .22 crimp then go to the regular .22 blank. Have the helper throw the
bird in the air without firing and send the dog. Have the helper yell MARK before
throwing the bird to get the dog's attention. After the dog makes a couple of retrieves,
have the helper yell MARK, fire the riffle in the air with the muzzle pointed away from
the dog and send the dog while the bird is still in the air. You use a riffle because the
report is softer than with a pistol. A pistol directs the sound out each side and they're so
loud they even hurt your ears. Use a riffle. Did the dog do it OK? Did he show any
hesitation? If all went well, throw another six birds, firing a shot when the bird is in the
air and sending the dog.

3).Step three is exactly the same as step two, but shorten the helper to 90 yards. Each time
you progress to the next step, shorten it up by 10 yards. If the dog shows any hesitation,
back up 10 yards.

4). Now 80 yards.

5). Now 70 yards.

6) Now 60 yards.

7) Now 50 yards.

8). Now 40 yards.

9) Now 30 yards.

10) Now 20 yards.

11) Now, for step 11, get rid of the helper. Now you take the clip wing, throw it, and
when the dog is in full pursuit, fire the gun with the muzzle directed away from the dog..
He should completely ignore the shot and dive for the bird.

12)Now repeat step 11 EXCEPT don't shoot the gun when the bird is in the air. Wait until
the dog pounces for the bird, his full attention on the bird, and fire the gun. Timing is
crucial and is everything here.

13). The final step with the .22 is to sit the dog, throw the bird with the dog sitting at your
side, and shoot the gun when the bird is in the air and send the dog. Did everything go
OK? Then we're now ready to introduce the shotgun.

To introduce the shotgun back right up to step 1 and do the whole 13 steps over again.
Sound boring and that it will take you a long time? It is and it does. That's why you pay a
pro so much to cure a gun shy dog. If the dog is not a bird-a-holic, you won't cure him by
this method. If he isn't a bird-a-holic, dump him because that isn't the dog you want
anyhow.

With a new pup, you don't have to be this careful, this is how a gun shy dog is broken. If
you get a new pup you break him to the gun differently, but that's for another thread.

Patience. If you have no patience and
aren't willing to follow a plan, you'll never train a dog. Patience, common sense, a
progressive program, understanding, discipline, a good dog. That's dog training.
This is very valuable information. Not only for someone trying to fix a problem, but to reinforce why you don’t want to cut corners to begin with. Thanks for posting, I hope it helps folks before they need help.

I have fixed a couple gun shy dogs and have conditioned quite a few dogs to the gun without issue over the years by following a program. I have only caused gunshyness with one, my current dog. 100% my fault, I completely screwed him up. While working through a progression I make 12 gauge shells with only a 209 primers instead of using . 22 blanks. Working in the vineyards I used to load bird bangers, made to scare off birds on our crops. When cleaning the ammo cabinet, I must have mixed one with my 209 poppers. I loaded it and accidentally shot it off. (Always check your gear and use a sharpie to label the shell itself, not just the box). The built in delay in the load and decibel level couldn’t of been timed any worse. A loud firework like bang as soon as the dog got to the bird. It sounded like a dud at first and when it went off, I immediately wanted to puke, the dog reacted as any dog would. I couldn’t even talk to the family when I got home I was so sick. The dog instantly started blinking pigeons and it took many months, and a very similar progression as outlined above, except I couldn’t use pigeons. Luckily with lots of step #1 on only wild birds his drive took over again.

Moral of the story, it only takes one mistake to really screw things up, even if you have a solid grasp on what you are doing and many previous success stories. The set back cost a significant amount of time, money and was mentally exhausting. Be careful and follow a plan to a T.

Garrison
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- Mark Twain-

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Re: Gun Conditioning Question

Post by NEhomer » Sat Jul 23, 2022 6:23 am

My dog tried to jump out the window in excitement to get to me, believing there was a dummy to chase. At this point I am only seeing positive associations to the gun fire.


....I'm wondering why OP has gotten so many warnings. His pup obviously isn't afraid of gunfire. My Setter doesn't ignore gunfire, it FIRES him up!

I always thought that was a good thing.

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Re: Gun Conditioning Question

Post by Garrison » Sat Jul 23, 2022 8:42 am

NEhomer wrote:
Sat Jul 23, 2022 6:23 am
My dog tried to jump out the window in excitement to get to me, believing there was a dummy to chase. At this point I am only seeing positive associations to the gun fire.


....I'm wondering why OP has gotten so many warnings. His pup obviously isn't afraid of gunfire. My Setter doesn't ignore gunfire, it FIRES him up!

I always thought that was a good thing.
1) None of us have seen the dog. Is it excitement for the gun? Maybe, maybe not. I had a dog that was fearful of loud sounds and it would try to bust out of anything to get to me when there was thunder, fireworks or ordinance going off (we live near Camp Pendleton). Side note, although he would bust out of a crate, he was fine with guns because he went through a conditioning protocol.

2) Stopping at full throttle on a chase is not something I would want to see during gun conditioning, certainly not something I would want to intentionally repeat. Every program or advice I have read or been given, like gonehuntin posted suggest to take a step back and go through the process until there is no reaction and then proceed to the next step. Not power through and hope and pray for a better result next time.

3) He said a program was being followed, more of a video clip, but is not using birds. I personally know of no program that utilize bumpers exclusively, and don’t believe the one being loosely followed does either. So is the OP following a program or just winging it?

4) If all was going peachy, the OP probably wouldn’t be asking on an open forum if the negative reactions being experienced are something to worry about. They are.

5) All the folks who have chimed in with a word of caution are either professional dog trainers or have dealt with the after effects of a gun shy dog or both. Once you have, you realize why you follow a well recognized program and don’t cut corners or change it to suit your wants.

6) There is no downside to taking some more time, utilizing some of the resources that have been shared and proceeding with caution to ensure the dog is ready for work.

I think it has been said here about a million times, “you can’t make a bird dog without birds”. Well, this is part of bird dog development that needs birds. You can’t do much with a bird dog until you get birds on their brain and guns behind you. Lastly, there is a difference between conditioning a dog to a gun and testing to see if a dog is okay with a gun.

Garrison
Last edited by Garrison on Sat Jul 23, 2022 1:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Gun Conditioning Question

Post by Sharon » Sat Jul 23, 2022 9:44 am

Excellent post!
I don't know where you live Hoody, but there are birds for sale right now in the Training category.
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Re: Gun Conditioning Question

Post by BlessedGirl » Sat Jul 23, 2022 5:00 pm

NEhomer wrote:
Sat Jul 23, 2022 6:23 am
My dog tried to jump out the window in excitement to get to me, believing there was a dummy to chase. At this point I am only seeing positive associations to the gun fire.


....I'm wondering why OP has gotten so many warnings. His pup obviously isn't afraid of gunfire. My Setter doesn't ignore gunfire, it FIRES him up!

I always thought that was a good thing.
Same with mine.
"Heaven isn't for good people. Heaven is for forgiven people."

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Re: Gun Conditioning Question

Post by gonehuntin' » Sat Jul 23, 2022 5:11 pm

NEhomer wrote:
Sat Jul 23, 2022 6:23 am
My dog tried to jump out the window in excitement to get to me, believing there was a dummy to chase. At this point I am only seeing positive associations to the gun fire.


....I'm wondering why OP has gotten so many warnings. His pup obviously isn't afraid of gunfire. My Setter doesn't ignore gunfire, it FIRES him up!

I always thought that was a good thing.
Just that here is a right way and a wrong way to introduce birds to a dog. You might never have a problem just firing a gun over a dog, no intro necessary. In fact, most dog's are like that. But, why take a chance? Gunfire should be a pleasant association and if it is, you will not have any problems. There are two difficult things to overcome in this odd world of dog training and both can be IMPOSSIBLE to ever overcome: Hard Mouth and Gun Shyness. If proper steps are taken, neither will usually occur.

That possibility is there that the dog jumped out that window to be near the protective owner, not out of positive excitement. Few things in this world are as pitiful as a gun shy dog.
LIFE WITHOUT BIRD DOGS AND FLY RODS REALLY ISN'T LIFE AT ALL.

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Re: Gun Conditioning Question

Post by Elhewramblinman » Sun Jul 24, 2022 6:35 am

Perfection Kennels Perfect Gun Acclimation


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Re: Gun Conditioning Question

Post by Hoody32 » Mon Jul 25, 2022 9:32 am

I have caught my first pigeon. I have seen a variety of replies on the best way to do gun acclimation in the replies. What I see from perfection kennels, is shot, then the bird is thrown. This seems to make the most sense to me in training aspect of reward for sound. I see a lot of support for the perfection kennels model. I also see running after the bird as a distraction to the sound.

If I knew how to create a poll I would, but what are your votes: 1. Shot then throw. 2. Throw and shot with bird in the air.

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Re: Gun Conditioning Question

Post by Sharon » Mon Jul 25, 2022 11:04 am

#3 Throw and shoot with dog chasing the bird. Let dog chase until it is far from the gun initially then keep setting up the same situation until the dog is closer to the gun but NOT too close for a while.

Members: I put his poll at the very top of this page.
" We are more than our gender, skin color, class, sexuality or age; we are unlimited potential, and can not be defined by one label." quote A. Bartlett

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Re: Gun Conditioning Question

Post by Hoody32 » Mon Jul 25, 2022 5:10 pm

Sharon wrote:
Mon Jul 25, 2022 11:04 am
#3 Throw and shoot with dog chasing the bird. Let dog chase until it is far from the gun initially then keep setting up the same situation until the dog is closer to the gun but NOT too close for a while.

Members: I put his poll at the very top of this page.
Thanks for helping me out with that!!

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DonF
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Re: Gun Conditioning Question

Post by DonF » Tue Jul 26, 2022 9:32 am

Elhewramblinman wrote:
Sun Jul 24, 2022 6:35 am
Perfection Kennels Perfect Gun Acclimation


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I have seen that video quite a long time ago and pretty good. Notice in the video with introducing the dog to the gun. Wen the gun is fired the dog looks over at the gun a moment then goes on to retrieve. I can't see any problem with that, I think the dog is simply courious about the noise. Sound's like your dog is the same to me. Easy check. take a fired shotgun shell and drill out the primer pocket to 1/4". There you can put in and remove a primer easily. Get closer to the dog and do your routine and fire a primer, it will be pretty quiet. You mentioned I think, the sight of the gun pumps the dog up, good sign!


I remember on here a guy years ago had trouble with his dog leaving birds, I think it was leaving birds. Seemed to me the dog was associating the gun fire with the bird and the gun fire was bothering it. Someone went out with him and found out that was what it was. Your program sounds good and someone said don't rush it, that is good advice. We have a habit to many time of moving on a bit to soon. I catch myself doing that and just back up a bit.

I suspect that throwing a bird and firing could create a problem. The dog might associate the gun fire with the bird, doesn't sound to me like your dog has though. Something I believe about gun shy dog's, they are naturally timid! The vast majority of dog's I've fooled with never flinched when the gun went off but every one of them would stop and look toward the noise just a moment. Seem's to me a natural reaction. Dog is not afraid, just courious. But caution is your friend and shooting as your doing a bit longer is not gonna hurt a thing, go for it.
I pity the man that has never been loved by a dog!

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