Pointing English Springer Spaniel, A Change of Strategy

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Higgins
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Pointing English Springer Spaniel, A Change of Strategy

Post by Higgins » Sat Jul 09, 2022 6:27 pm

I wrote a post recently about a young English Springer Spaniel that I was going to convert from a flushing dog to a pointing dog. The owner has a nice Shorthair that I trained recently and he wanted to include his young flushing dog in the hunt. For the type of hunting he was going to do, I decided the best way for these two dogs to work together would be to have both of them use a pointing strategy. Well, here she is this morning working quail with her owner. A Pointing English Springer Spaniel. She does beautiful work stalking, steady, pointing and retrieving. Worked out great. No obedience, no ecollars, no commands. I just showed her what works. I have a lot of video of the training. I'll have it posted soon.
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Re: Pointing English Springer Spaniel, A Change of Strategy

Post by BlessedGirl » Tue Jul 12, 2022 11:16 am

Wow, that is so neat!
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Re: Pointing English Springer Spaniel, A Change of Strategy

Post by DonF » Sun Jul 17, 2022 6:41 pm

Hard to believe! So what is the point? Pointing dogs just not good enough? I'd suggest you try a springer-doodle but am afraid you'd try!
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Re: Pointing English Springer Spaniel, A Change of Strategy

Post by mask » Mon Jul 18, 2022 10:30 am

What is hard to believe is no one has ask how he got it done. What was the process that was gone through to get the dog to stand and hold birds till he gets there to flush. It sounds like he had a customer that liked his dog but would be happier if the dog would point and now the dog does. Or how about this, the man is a good trainer and follows a program that works for his clients.

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Re: Pointing English Springer Spaniel, A Change of Strategy

Post by gonehuntin' » Mon Jul 18, 2022 10:45 am

For as long as I can remember, people have been training Lab's to stop and point. Problem is, when you TRAIN a flushing dog to stop and point, rather than engaging in a hard flush, you are beginning to negate years and generations of carefully bred dogs that were bred for a specific purpose. Someone once said, "You could teach a raccoon to point with electronic traps and an electric collar" and I think that's true. However, I see no reason to destroy years of breeding to create a TRAINED dog working from training, not from natural ability.
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Re: Pointing English Springer Spaniel, A Change of Strategy

Post by DonF » Mon Jul 18, 2022 11:07 am

I'm going to guess at how he got it done. Same as I do to get young pointer's started pointing. Springer's have what they call a fault called blinking. That a dog that goes into a flush but hesitates. Well train to increase the blink and you have a point! Take the dog out with remote traps and when the dog hit's the scent cone, pop the bird. Do not allow the dog time to establish a point or to move into flush. The dog learns to stop right away to keep from flushing the bird. Then you shot a few for the dog like that and the dog get's the reward it wanted in the bird. A way to motovate a dog to flush harder is to put the birds to sleep on the ground and let the dog catch a bunch on the ground. Then go back to dizzying the birds and the dog learns to hurry the flush or loose the bird. But when the dog flush's hard, shoot the bird for it and the dog keeps flushing hard.

I can't for the life of me understand why anyone would get a Springer and teach it to point! If it's the size and attitude you like but you want a pointing dog, get a Brittany! A lot of years went into breeding the Springer to do what it does and they do it well. Now he's looking at making the Springer into something it was not ment to be. People have done the same with the Lab, the pointing Lab. I have watched a number of videos on them and seen lot's of stills with them on point and have never seen even one that impressed me a bit!

I see Gone hunting has answered pretty much the same as I have here while I was writting.
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Re: Pointing English Springer Spaniel, A Change of Strategy

Post by mask » Mon Jul 18, 2022 11:23 am

People have altered dogs behavior for thousands of years the brit and the viz are two examples and most breeds for that matter.What is the big deal about training one individual to point.

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Re: Pointing English Springer Spaniel, A Change of Strategy

Post by BlessedGirl » Mon Jul 18, 2022 12:00 pm

mask wrote:
Mon Jul 18, 2022 11:23 am
People have altered dogs behavior for thousands of years the brit and the viz are two examples and most breeds for that matter.What is the big deal about training one individual to point.
I agree. I think it would be a different thing if someone were breeding Springers and training them all as pointing dogs, or something like that.
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Re: Pointing English Springer Spaniel, A Change of Strategy

Post by Sharon » Mon Jul 18, 2022 1:19 pm

mask wrote:
Mon Jul 18, 2022 10:30 am
What is hard to believe is no one has ask how he got it done. What was the process that was gone through to get the dog to stand and hold birds till he gets there to flush. It sounds like he had a customer that liked his dog but would be happier if the dog would point and now the dog does. Or how about this, the man is a good trainer and follows a program that works for his clients.
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Re: Pointing English Springer Spaniel, A Change of Strategy

Post by gonehuntin' » Mon Jul 18, 2022 1:38 pm

mask wrote:
Mon Jul 18, 2022 11:23 am
People have altered dogs behavior for thousands of years the brit and the viz are two examples and most breeds for that matter.What is the big deal about training one individual to point.
It's not a big deal but it shows a defect in that particular breeding. A springer should have a hard flush, as all flushing dog's should have. This one apparently had the same hesitation many Lab's exhibit and the trainer capitalized on it. It's certainly nothing I'd brag about doing, because in doing so you risk other people doing it in total ignorance of what the dog's natural instincts are and what they've been bred for. Like stimulating a pointing dog each time it points until it only flushes the bird. If you want a flusher, buy a flusher. If you want a pointer, buy a pointer. Please don't detract from the breed by breeding an instinct out of it. Springers, especially, have had enough problems over the years.
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Re: Pointing English Springer Spaniel, A Change of Strategy

Post by BlessedGirl » Mon Jul 18, 2022 1:45 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:
Mon Jul 18, 2022 1:38 pm
mask wrote:
Mon Jul 18, 2022 11:23 am
People have altered dogs behavior for thousands of years the brit and the viz are two examples and most breeds for that matter.What is the big deal about training one individual to point.
It's not a big deal but it shows a defect in that particular breeding. A springer should have a hard flush, as all flushing dog's should have. This one apparently had the same hesitation many Lab's exhibit and the trainer capitalized on it. It's certainly nothing I'd brag about doing, because in doing so you risk other people doing it in total ignorance of what the dog's natural instincts are and what they've been bred for. Like stimulating a pointing dog each time it points until it only flushes the bird. Why would any idiot do that? If you want a flusher, buy a flusher. If you want a pointer, buy a pointer. Please don't detract from the breed by breeding an instinct out of it. Springers, especially, have had enough problems over the years.
Without asking Higgins, how do you know the dog had a defect in breeding? Say you train a blue heeler or a coon hound to point - would you say the same thing? Just curious. I'm here to learn.
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Re: Pointing English Springer Spaniel, A Change of Strategy

Post by cjhills » Mon Jul 18, 2022 9:34 pm

Blue heelers and coonhounds are not bred to flush hard. You are not training them to do something that is considered a fault for their breed. All predators will point and most will flush, maybe all. In dogs we want to keep them separate. I have always thought I would like to have my pointers flush on command like they do in other countries. Seems like it would require a pretty close point though......... Cj

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Re: Pointing English Springer Spaniel, A Change of Strategy

Post by Higgins » Mon Jul 18, 2022 9:57 pm

Here ya go Cj. I give all the dogs I train the freedom to flush the bird. The only rule is that they must wait for my verbal "alright" cue. Then, no chasing. They get to go to the bird on my "hunt dead" cue. When I say "alright, (flush but don't chase)" I have to be sure I'm close enough to get a shot. No obedience, and no ecollars. Don't need them.
https://youtu.be/rJ1UJrz9XRo

Here is a link to lots of videos showing dogs waiting and flushing on cue.
https://www.youtube.com/c/HigginsGunDogs

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Re: Pointing English Springer Spaniel, A Change of Strategy

Post by Higgins » Mon Jul 18, 2022 10:20 pm

Here is one of the locals during her training. The first photo was taken during her "whoa" barrel work :D . The second photo shows her finished, steady, pointing a quail. I often work some of the local prairie wolves. This one is still a little gun sensitive though :D. I trained her the same way I train the domestic canids. I didn't ask her what she was bred to do. I just showed her what works and she chose to do it. Again, no obedience, no collars, no commands. The wild ones will keep you honest.
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Re: Pointing English Springer Spaniel, A Change of Strategy

Post by cjhills » Tue Jul 19, 2022 5:41 am

Higgins:
That is all very nice, however, if I was a betting man, my money would be on the fact that dog won't wait for your command to flush, but more likely catch the bird and run off and eat it. She has much more at stake than you do. Not the least is survival.
Dog trainers get paid big bucks to teach the dog what it has known for centuries........Cj

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Re: Pointing English Springer Spaniel, A Change of Strategy

Post by gonehuntin' » Tue Jul 19, 2022 10:34 am

BlessedGirl wrote:
Mon Jul 18, 2022 1:45 pm
gonehuntin' wrote:
Mon Jul 18, 2022 1:38 pm
mask wrote:
Mon Jul 18, 2022 11:23 am
People have altered dogs behavior for thousands of years the brit and the viz are two examples and most breeds for that matter.What is the big deal about training one individual to point.
It's not a big deal but it shows a defect in that particular breeding. A springer should have a hard flush, as all flushing dog's should have. This one apparently had the same hesitation many Lab's exhibit and the trainer capitalized on it. It's certainly nothing I'd brag about doing, because in doing so you risk other people doing it in total ignorance of what the dog's natural instincts are and what they've been bred for. Like stimulating a pointing dog each time it points until it only flushes the bird. Why would any idiot do that? If you want a flusher, buy a flusher. If you want a pointer, buy a pointer. Please don't detract from the breed by breeding an instinct out of it. Springers, especially, have had enough problems over the years.
Without asking Higgins, how do you know the dog had a defect in breeding? Say you train a blue heeler or a coon hound to point - would you say the same thing? Just curious. I'm here to learn.
I didn't say there WAS a defect in breeding, I said there apparently was. That's not the point. The point is, you're trying to negate generations of careful breeding to develop a trait the dog should NOT have. They are FLUSHERS. Why, why, would you do that to the breed?
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Re: Pointing English Springer Spaniel, A Change of Strategy

Post by BlessedGirl » Tue Jul 19, 2022 6:25 pm

With all due respect...

I believe was and apparently was mean a very similar thing.

Higgins stated in the OP why he taught the dog, as an individual, to point. It was the system that worked best for his client who wanted to hunt both dogs as a team. It just doesn't seem like it would make sense for him to retire his ESS to couch potato status (or something like that) because it didn't work well to run a flusher and pointer at one time. If the owner had the Springer and then found out it didn't work so well to run both dogs together, it's different than if he had bought a flushing dog with the intention of making a pointing dog out of it. If he could still include the dog in the hunt and make the dog happy, what's not to love? It sure is better than depriving the poor thing of hunting time.

Unless he's breeding the dog (and it sounds like he just runs two dogs of different breeds), any faults that have been made unobservable because of that training method will not be passed down to future generations.
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Re: Pointing English Springer Spaniel, A Change of Strategy

Post by Garrison » Tue Jul 19, 2022 9:29 pm

BlessedGirl wrote:
Tue Jul 19, 2022 6:25 pm
With all due respect...

I believe was and apparently was mean a very similar thing.

Higgins stated in the OP why he taught the dog, as an individual, to point. It was the system that worked best for his client who wanted to hunt both dogs as a team. It just doesn't seem like it would make sense for him to retire his ESS to couch potato status (or something like that) because it didn't work well to run a flusher and pointer at one time. If the owner had the Springer and then found out it didn't work so well to run both dogs together, it's different than if he had bought a flushing dog with the intention of making a pointing dog out of it. If he could still include the dog in the hunt and make the dog happy, what's not to love? It sure is better than depriving the poor thing of hunting time.

Unless he's breeding the dog (and it sounds like he just runs two dogs of different breeds), any faults that have been made unobservable because of that training method will not be passed down to future generations.
There are really nice pointing dogs that work with flushers all across the south on a daily basis. But it doesn’t seem to take a special proprietary method to accomplish this. All those folks call it what is, and what it has been called for decades, breaking a dog. It does take more time, ability and diligence than most care to impart or posses. Myself included.

I don’t much care what others do with their dogs as long as they are cared for and the owners enjoy them. That said, I would probably feel differently if I was a breeder of a dog in question. I wouldn’t be real excited to find out the hard work and time I put into a pointer breeding was flushed down the toilet when it was turned into a flusher, or vice versa.

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Re: Pointing English Springer Spaniel, A Change of Strategy

Post by gonehuntin' » Wed Jul 20, 2022 12:26 pm

We have to also realize that this dog wasn't trained to point. It was trained to stop at first scent. There's a big difference. Any dog can probably be taught to stop at first scent, it's really comparatively easy. Especially with launchers. Like all dog training, simply exposure, consistency, reinforcement.
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Re: Pointing English Springer Spaniel, A Change of Strategy

Post by DonF » Tue Jul 26, 2022 10:19 am

Higgins wrote:
Mon Jul 18, 2022 10:20 pm
Here is one of the locals during her training. The first photo was taken during her "whoa" barrel work :D . The second photo shows her finished, steady, pointing a quail. I often work some of the local prairie wolves. This one is still a little gun sensitive though :D. I trained her the same way I train the domestic canids. I didn't ask her what she was bred to do. I just showed her what works and she chose to do it. Again, no obedience, no collars, no commands. The wild ones will keep you honest.
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What you are seeing in the second photo is called stalking. Watch any preditor on a meal. They stalk, usually in a crouch to hide. To get to that point we short circuit the stalk and teach the dog to prolong the halt in the stalk till we can get there and flush the bird for it. I use remote traps to create the point. Dog is allowed to get only so close and it will flush the bird. Bear in mind doesn't make much difference what the breed is, dog's came to us by way of preditor's, all we did was to inhance the stalk to get the dog what it wants the bird! In the case of the Springer what is normal is to teach the dog it can catch the bird on the gound. Simple thing to do really. Plant birds hard. Head under a wing and put them to sleep, good springer will catch every one! That teachs flush. Form there go to lightly planted birds, dizzy and put into brush and auddenly it becomes harder for the dog to catch the bird but your there and shoot it for the dog, dog's naturally learns to flush hard!

I had a guy bring me a GSP years ago he said wouldn't point a bird. he'd got it from a preserve that didn't get it trained and they told him it had to much prey drive. Hog wash! Took about six birds and 20 minutes to get the dog to point the first bird and it pointed every one after that. But you cannot teach a pointing dog to point by letting it catch birds on the ground! Most pointing breeds became pointer's probably because they simply ran out of gun range, most flusher's don't. The setter's, know where their name came from? Early time hunter's found birds and threw a net over them to catch them. Setter's were developed there and what was appening is the dog was said to be setting the birds and the net was thrown over the birds and the dog. That's the way I heard it anyway. Setter's often have a trait to make me believe that also. Watch them and a good number of them squat on point. Watch the European Setters and they have a low tail and squat. Left over from early days when Setter's sat their birds? I kind of think so.

A lot of centuries have gone by breeding dogs for certain traits. Had a guy with a cocker wanted to hunt with it. Iold him it might not work and it did not work. American Cocker's have pretty much had it bred out, want a hunting cocker you really need to go with the English cocker, breeding hasn't been fooled with. Pretty much everything we do with dog's amounts to inhancing wild traits and breeding for those traits. I'm quite sure Mr Higgans Springer will learn to point if that's what the owner wants, sinply a matter of encouraging a prolonged blink. The blink in the Springer world and with any flushing breed is a fault. Dog that blinks risk's a wild bird running out on it. So to fix that they were taught to flush hard. How, easy, let them catch lots of birds on the gorund and then one day get the bird out befor the dog can get it. At that point the dog will try harder and that is the bird you shoot for the dog. After all, what every dog want's, flushing and pointing, is actually the bird. teach them how to get the bird and they are a happy guy.
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