Does the NAVHDA Natural Ability Test Create Problems?

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sns2
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Does the NAVHDA Natural Ability Test Create Problems?

Post by sns2 » Sun Jun 12, 2022 12:06 pm

I have been to a few Navhda training days just because I am a dog person. Even joined a club as it seems like a good bunch of people who are enthusiastic about their dogs, it helps with access to group orders for birds, and why not support all forms of our sport.

Anyhow, my question is this… in their Natural Ability test for dogs up to 16 moths of age, one of the three performance components is tracking a live bird which has been hobbled. A pile of feathers are pulled from a pheasant which is the starting point for the dog. The young dog is taken up to the feathers and released to track the bird. Yesterday, I watched as a 5 month old dog tracked and then pointed the bird, which was obviously a good thing. The handler did a second track in which the dog was released, and it grabbed the pheasant. I can’t recall whether the dog pointed before grabbing it, but that’s immaterial to my question.

I have always worked overtime to NOT ever allow my young dogs to catch a bird, as I know firsthand how much problem it can create.

To me, any scenario which by design allows for the creation of bad habits doesn’t seem to be a good thing.

Am I missing something here?

I would love to hear what you folks think.

There are more than one way to skin a cat, but this one goes against the grey matter between these ears.

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Garrison
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Re: Does the NAVHDA Natural Ability Test Create Problems?

Post by Garrison » Sun Jun 12, 2022 2:51 pm

Depends who’s training and who’s asking. I have hunted over some Prize 1 dogs and been to several training days and tests. NAVHDA is one of the best resources available for a beginning trainer/hunter. There is a lot of help and it’s a great way to learn about dogs. There is also a lot of training that I have seen and in some aspects required that I feel would not be of any advantage to the development of the type of dog I want. Many amateur NAVHDA trainers I have seen exert far too much control over every aspect of a dogs performance for my liking. I know for a fact when I have let one of my dogs loose on a training day, many didn’t like what they saw either. I was asked/told “I would have a good dog if I got a handle on him” (dog was in contact the whole time) and “Why didn’t you call him back when he ran directly to a hill a few hundred yards off”. (Because that is where he would likely make a bird contact). Probably not a behavior they would want to see in a test.

There are also some experienced NAVHDA trainers who live and hunt on wild birds, they and their dogs have no problem playing the games or filling some country in pursuit of birds. A good dog and a good trainer figure out what they need to do to get the performance they need.

Garrison
“Heaven goes by favor. If it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in.”
- Mark Twain-

sns2
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Re: Does the NAVHDA Natural Ability Test Create Problems?

Post by sns2 » Sun Jun 12, 2022 3:50 pm

Garrison, I enjoyed your answer. Thank you. It didn’t say anything about my specific question regarding the tracking test creating bad habits, however :D

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Garrison
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Re: Does the NAVHDA Natural Ability Test Create Problems?

Post by Garrison » Sun Jun 12, 2022 3:57 pm

sns2 wrote:
Sun Jun 12, 2022 3:50 pm
Garrison, I enjoyed your answer. Thank you. It didn’t say anything about my specific question regarding the tracking test creating bad habits, however :D
There are lots of hunting dogs who are asked to track down a crippled bird and pick them up without establishing point again, who still have zero problems pointing, many from NAVHDA. I prefer to train for it after a bird has been pointed, it has been watched go to wing and shots fired.

Garrison
“Heaven goes by favor. If it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in.”
- Mark Twain-

sns2
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Re: Does the NAVHDA Natural Ability Test Create Problems?

Post by sns2 » Sun Jun 12, 2022 5:42 pm

I knew you had a good answer!

slistoe
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Re: Does the NAVHDA Natural Ability Test Create Problems?

Post by slistoe » Sun Jun 12, 2022 9:53 pm

Garrison wrote:
Sun Jun 12, 2022 3:57 pm
There are lots of hunting dogs who are asked to track down a crippled bird and pick them up without establishing point again, who still have zero problems pointing, many from NAVHDA. I prefer to train for it after a bird has been pointed, it has been watched go to wing and shots fired.

Garrison
The real cool part is when you see a dog that seems to have that extra sense of when a wounded bird is still capable of taking flight - and they will point it rather than going in for the retrieve.

As to the training - I really wouldn't know as I have always left the tracking of cripples till after the hunting and pointing aspects were solid.

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Re: Does the NAVHDA Natural Ability Test Create Problems?

Post by cjhills » Mon Jun 13, 2022 5:26 am

This is one of the NAVHDA things I don't like. I don't want my pointing dog putting his nose on the ground. I don't want him ground trailing healthy running birds, it is much more effective if he runs on the downwind side of the trail with his head up, like a fox hound. He does need to blood trail find wounded birds, but they seem to learn that later on in the hunting process. Some dogs like to point the wounded birds and some like to retrieve them. If I send my dog on a retrieve, I prefer him to bring back the bird dead or alive.
I have never had a problem caused by a dog catching a wounded bird. I guess that would be the reason for shackling the bird........Cj

sns2
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Re: Does the NAVHDA Natural Ability Test Create Problems?

Post by sns2 » Mon Jun 13, 2022 7:07 am

That is what I thought also, is that the tracking would be in the UPT or UT testing. I tried to intentionally word my post so as to not come across as a slight toward any group, rather an honest question as to whether this aspect of training while a dog is young, contributes to creeping and/or busting birds. I have met some really nice people over the years that are a part of the Navhda system, and I was asking a question so as to understand not disparage.

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Sharon
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Re: Does the NAVHDA Natural Ability Test Create Problems?

Post by Sharon » Mon Jun 13, 2022 9:18 am

In trying to respond, I wanted to delete/change my response and accidently deleted gonehuntin's post too. Very sorry.

THis is his post . SN2 is replying to it in the above post.

First, they don't hobble birds in any of the NAVHDA tests I've been to. They do pull primary feathers, but the birds aren't hobbled. The people that test in NAVHDA a lot, have no problem with the NA. If they don't, I don't, though I don't believe in the track. I also don't believe it should be called NATURAL ABILITY when the older dog's are sometimes through FF, Obedience, and steady on point, though not possible steady through point-flush. That is not "Natural Ability". At least, that's my view. I think it's interesting that the only test a live bird is tracked in, is the NA. All of the other tests are drag's. My own view is that, I ignore the track portion and what happens, happens. I want a dog running with it's nose to the wind, not pottering along sniffing ever track in the woods it comes to. So, I think NA does not really hurt a dog at all unless you ignore basic training just to get a high NA score. Great organization and I've never seen any test in any venue where EVERYONE agrees with it." gone huntin'
...........................................................................


And that is the truth. Even in American Field tests I dislike the fact that a dog can't relocate on its own. It it has to stand there and look at an empty bush, from where his birds just left, until the handler gets to him and gives him relocating permission. " Sharon
" We are more than our gender, skin color, class, sexuality or age; we are unlimited potential, and can not be defined by one label." quote A. Bartlett

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