Training whoas?

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Sureshotshane
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Training whoas?

Post by Sureshotshane » Sat Jun 04, 2022 8:45 pm

Not training whoa. Training whoas.

I have two young bird dogs I'm working with right now, a DD and a brittany. I've been spending considerable time training obedience, bird work, and blood trailing.

Had my first uh oh moment with the britanny today.

She is a bit over 6 months and today was the day to introduce the big gun up close. I have a pile of feral pigeons that I need to use as birds to kill over the two pups. I knew she was going to be fine because I haven't rushed it at all and followed all the right steps. Additionally, she is used to all the noises from construction around the ranch and is just a good well balanced dog (though a bit of a spaz). I placed two birds side-by-side for fun. One in a launcher and one dizzied on the ground next to the launcher. Up till today her point hasn't been very impressive, she loves the birds though so I haven't been concerned, when she was young her point was much better so I know it's just a phase. She made a kind of sloppy point and I launched the bird up right before I thought she would break and shot it over her. She ran out like a bullet and grabbed it up and brought it back to me, once she came back and I gave some praise. I kicked the other bird up and shot it as well and she promptly ran and got it and came back as proud as a peacock.

Great! It was more an exercise in gun training but it ended up really helping her put the pieces together.

I was going to do one more lesson for the day with just one bird in a launcher. She already works the field beautifully for her age and this time around she was even more jazzed. She knew somewhere a bird was waiting, and as soon as she got into the scent cone she locked up like never before. I was quite pleased, I walked up steadily but cautiously and launched the bird before she broke and that's when the launcher malfunctioned, I had to stop her with the check cord, she didn't get the bird but it was close and she was practically on top of it. I didn't shoot of course because things just weren't right.

I didn't think it was really a big deal, things happen. She immediately started yelping in pain right after she was stopped by the check cord. It really wasn't very much whiplash. I couldn't figure out why but I could tell her ear was bothering her and she was tilting her head to one side, almost like when a dog has a foxtail in their ear. I immediately probed around the area and she was in some pretty bad pain, yelping and crying, but there was no visible injuries and I'm pretty certain there actually wasn't/isn't a foxtail in her ear. The only thing I can think at this point is that the recoil from hitting the end of the checkcord and having the GPS collar jolted her ear. One thing I do know is that she is a huge sissy. She stubbed her toe once and walked on three legs for 2 days. I bet any of my other dogs wouldn't have even recognized the pain.
.
Obviously I stopped for the day. Looking forward to getting her back out but will have to wait until her ear is totally better. It's a few hours later and she still has a lean to the side that's hurt and obviously isn't 100%. Also wondering if she is going to have some negative association with the birds. I kind of doubt it because she has seen a ton of birds and this is just one bad experience and she loves birds. I'm just bummed because it was nearly the perfect moment and it went to poop in seconds. Maybe it could be good training, don't go running in willy nilly after birds? She's already had sutures from running into a stray strand of barb wire, that certainly didn't slow her down one bit.

As for the DD, he is even younger and he's the kind of dog that makes training seem easy. He has an excellent point, very stylish and will let me get pretty close to the bird before he breaks. No whoa on birds at this age. A punt gun wouldn't bother him. The only annoying thing is that he doesn't pay much attention to the bird as it flys away, he understands that the launcher is what held the bird and loves to go and try to maul the launcher instead. This began after I started planting multiple birds together, he stopped chasing the birds as they flew away realizing there was more in the bush nearby. So I kind of accomplished one goal since he doesn't run 100 yards after a bird he clearly cannot catch but created another issue of paying no attention to the birds flying away. The first bird I shot over him, he had no clue died because he was busy trying to get to the launcher. So I've since stopped planting multiple birds for now with him. I think shooting birds over him that he sees fall out of the sky will help him get over that.

Anyways. Just curious if ya'll have any horror stories that actually set you back from a single incident. Or stories about things you thought were going to be worse and it ended up being nothing. Again, I'm not really concerned about this dog getting set back in any way but I could see how it could for a different dog or slightly worse situation. Dogs constantly amaze me with their intelligence so I like to give them credit.

I'll include some photos of the brittany for fun. A random person pointed out that she has a cat outline on her forehead, someone else said it looked like batman.
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molotov_birddogs
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Re: Training whoas?

Post by molotov_birddogs » Wed Jun 08, 2022 7:40 pm

Heres my uh oh horror story....It went like this.We went out to the woods and brought a shotgun cause we've seen bear tracks and mountain lions. My birddogs have had No gun intro, a little bird work but nothing much. Anyway, there fine with construction noises and other loud noises. I didn't relize that when they were standing next to the person with the gun that they were going to test if it works. They shot of a shot and it wasn't the loudest gun around but it was loud for the dogs cause one belined to me, I was standing mayby 20 feet away, and the other froze and wouldn't continue down the trial without a little encouragement. Gladly they didn't go far. After walking a few minutes they relaxed and seemed alright....unfortunately a week later we pulled out a gun and the youngest shied away from the sight and the other peed on the couch(which isn't unusual for him). So hopefully after a proper gun intro (whenever I get the resources) they will be able to be gun broke.

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Sharon
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Re: Training whoas?

Post by Sharon » Fri Jun 10, 2022 11:01 am

That is a cat! :) but also a beautiful Brittany. Only had one horror story that I can think of, and that seemed to fix itself.
We were participating in an AKC field trial. Dog was doing well. Then the dog notices a couple big geese on the pond near the trial grounds honking away. Off she goes. Refused to come when called, and swam after geese for 30 + minutes. :oops:
" We are more than our gender, skin color, class, sexuality or age; we are unlimited potential, and can not be defined by one label." quote A. Bartlett

Sureshotshane
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Re: Training whoas?

Post by Sureshotshane » Sun Jun 12, 2022 4:04 pm

Dayla wrote:
Wed Jun 08, 2022 7:40 pm
Heres my uh oh horror story....It went like this.We went out to the woods and brought a shotgun cause we've seen bear tracks and mountain lions. My birddogs have had No gun intro, a little bird work but nothing much. Anyway, there fine with construction noises and other loud noises. I didn't relize that when they were standing next to the person with the gun that they were going to test if it works. They shot of a shot and it wasn't the loudest gun around but it was loud for the dogs cause one belined to me, I was standing mayby 20 feet away, and the other froze and wouldn't continue down the trial without a little encouragement. Gladly they didn't go far. After walking a few minutes they relaxed and seemed alright....unfortunately a week later we pulled out a gun and the youngest shied away from the sight and the other peed on the couch(which isn't unusual for him). So hopefully after a proper gun intro (whenever I get the resources) they will be able to be gun broke.
That's a really unfortunate situation. I'm careful around my hunting buddies who aren't dog people, most of them seem to have an itchier trigger finger. Last duck season I took one of my dogs out just to get him some exposure on the boat, he wasn't fully gun conditioned. The plan was to leave him in a crate in the boat and we were going to set up several hundred yards down river. It was a slow hunt, as we were walking back along the bank some ducks flew overhead and I told him not to shoot because we were too close to the boats location. He gets frustrated with me and kind of lashes out saying he doesn't know why I even brought the dang dog in the first place. All I could say was that it's just a duck.

Sureshotshane
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Re: Training whoas?

Post by Sureshotshane » Sun Jun 12, 2022 4:07 pm

Sharon wrote:
Fri Jun 10, 2022 11:01 am
That is a cat! :) but also a beautiful Brittany. Only had one horror story that I can think of, and that seemed to fix itself.
We were participating in an AKC field trial. Dog was doing well. Then the dog notices a couple big geese on the pond near the trial grounds honking away. Off she goes. Refused to come when called, and swam after geese for 30 + minutes. :oops:
Hahaha, I've dipped my feet into the NAVHDA and VDD hunt test world but I haven't dove into AKC trials but I'm going to assume that's no bueno? :wink:

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DonF
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Re: Training whoas?

Post by DonF » Mon Jul 18, 2022 11:49 am

I think you said you started the pup at 6mos. Big problem for me right there. At 6 mos they truly are a pup and your watching puppy junk hoping for something else. As for the traps, sounds like they are remote traps and you have the best thing for doing a dog in my opinion. Beauty of the remote is you can make the bird act like a wild bird and the thing will help you out. You mentioned something about stopping the pup with the check cord. That's fine in pre-remote trap days, not so fine now unless you don't have remotes. You mentioned something your pup did you didn't care for much and when it came back to you praised it. What did you praise it for? Puppy that age don't praise it for doing the wrong thing, simply ignore it and go on. Take the pup out with the traps set and I mark them with a floresent painted close pin on the bush the trap is in. I check wind to know about where the pup should hit scent. Then I turn the pup loose. Soon as it enter's the scent cone I pop the bird. Do not wait to see if the pup will point on its own, don't do that! Pop the bird and go on to the next trap. No scolding no praise, it was a non event!

Do the same thing at several more traps. What your wanting to happen is the pup stop on point before you can release the bird. At that point don't release the bird till the pup moves again. The pup is learning the what makes the bird fly away is it's own movement! You have had nothing to do with it and everything to do with it. You took a barn pigeon and made it act like a wild game bird. Word of caution, at 6 mos you are dealing with a puppy, don't forget that. The pup won't do anything wrong, you will! Get your ducks in a row and let the little guy grow up some more. waiting on him to get there, I'd suggest long walks where there is lots of di*ky birds. Watch him with them and he'll tell you when he's ready. In the begining when he spots a bird he'l simply chase it, or at least probably will. At some point you'll notice he hesitates before taking the bird out. That's when to go back to the traps. That little hesitation is him trying to figure out how to catch the bird, now you can teach him!
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Sureshotshane
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Re: Training whoas?

Post by Sureshotshane » Fri Jul 29, 2022 5:20 pm

DonF wrote:
Mon Jul 18, 2022 11:49 am
I think you said you started the pup at 6mos. Big problem for me right there. At 6 mos they truly are a pup and your watching puppy junk hoping for something else. As for the traps, sounds like they are remote traps and you have the best thing for doing a dog in my opinion. Beauty of the remote is you can make the bird act like a wild bird and the thing will help you out. You mentioned something about stopping the pup with the check cord. That's fine in pre-remote trap days, not so fine now unless you don't have remotes. You mentioned something your pup did you didn't care for much and when it came back to you praised it. What did you praise it for? Puppy that age don't praise it for doing the wrong thing, simply ignore it and go on. Take the pup out with the traps set and I mark them with a floresent painted close pin on the bush the trap is in. I check wind to know about where the pup should hit scent. Then I turn the pup loose. Soon as it enter's the scent cone I pop the bird. Do not wait to see if the pup will point on its own, don't do that! Pop the bird and go on to the next trap. No scolding no praise, it was a non event!

Do the same thing at several more traps. What your wanting to happen is the pup stop on point before you can release the bird. At that point don't release the bird till the pup moves again. The pup is learning the what makes the bird fly away is it's own movement! You have had nothing to do with it and everything to do with it. You took a barn pigeon and made it act like a wild game bird. Word of caution, at 6 mos you are dealing with a puppy, don't forget that. The pup won't do anything wrong, you will! Get your ducks in a row and let the little guy grow up some more. waiting on him to get there, I'd suggest long walks where there is lots of di*ky birds. Watch him with them and he'll tell you when he's ready. In the begining when he spots a bird he'l simply chase it, or at least probably will. At some point you'll notice he hesitates before taking the bird out. That's when to go back to the traps. That little hesitation is him trying to figure out how to catch the bird, now you can teach him!
Yes, I have remote traps. You've described my strategy. I spend a great deal of time choosing the location where I'll plant the birds, noting the wind (almost always comes from the south), and I never come in from the direction I plan to take the dog. I don't wait for the dog to point. I just launch the bird when we are in the scent cone and the dog has indicated that it has smelled the bird to any extent. I stopped the dog with the checkcord in this instance because something was wrong with the launcher, which is exactly why I had it on in the first place so she doesn't get smacked. I don't use the checkcord to hold her back or to try to initiate a point if that's what you meant? I did a lot of work without the checkcord but as she became faster and further ranging I put it on her to get used to it. Recently she is almost never on the CC. We spend countless hours just walking through the hills where she can chase the butterflies and tweety birds, everything is always fun. No pressure. Probably needless to say, the small mishap as described in the first post didn't amount to anything. Although I have no clue what was wrong with her ear. It persisted a couple days, she got better and we continued about our business.

Lately we've stopped doing as much bird work because we left on a good note, and I have other things to prepare for since her NA test is mid-August. Right now we are focusing on swimming, fetch, and basic obedience. Not too worried about her pointing, or tracking skills for the test. She loves to swim but isn't fond of the bumper (my fault really) so we have a couple weeks to build that desire so she can pass the water portion of the test. My pigeons won't be seeing any use until February because the mtn. quail and grouse season begins early September and the real training can begin. I'll be hunting nearly every day, even if just for an hour or two, switching dogs out to rest as needed and being particular what shots I take.

MarkTrsst
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Re: Training whoas?

Post by MarkTrsst » Sat Aug 13, 2022 3:37 pm

DonF wrote:
Mon Jul 18, 2022 11:49 am
I think you said you started the pup at 6mos. Big problem for me right there. At 6 mos they truly are a pup and your watching puppy junk hoping for something else. As for the traps, sounds like they are remote traps and you have the best thing for doing a dog in my opinion. Beauty of the remote is you can make the bird act like a wild bird and the thing will help you out. You mentioned something about stopping the pup with the check cord. That's fine in pre-remote trap days, not so fine now unless you don't have remotes. You mentioned something your pup did you didn't care for much and when it came back to you praised it. What did you praise it for? Puppy that age don't praise it for doing the wrong thing, simply ignore it and go on. Take the pup out with the traps set and I mark them with a floresent painted close pin on the bush the trap is in. I check wind to know about where the pup should hit scent. Then I turn the pup loose. Soon as it enter's the scent cone I pop the bird. Do not wait to see if the pup will point on its own, don't do that! Pop the bird and go on to the next trap. No scolding no praise, it was a non event!

Do the same thing at several more traps. What your wanting to happen is the pup stop on point before you can release the bird. At that point don't release the bird till the pup moves again. The pup is learning the what makes the bird fly away is it's own movement! You have had nothing to do with it and everything to do with it. You took a barn pigeon and made it act like a wild game bird. Word of caution, at 6 mos you are dealing with a puppy, don't forget that. The pup won't do anything wrong, you will! Get your ducks in a row and let the little guy grow up some more. waiting on him to get there, I'd suggest long walks where there is lots of di*ky birds. Watch him with them and he'll tell you when he's ready. In the begining when he spots a bird he'l simply chase it, or at least probably will. At some point you'll notice he hesitates before taking the bird out. That's when to go back to the traps. That little hesitation is him trying to figure out how to catch the bird, now you can teach him!
I agree with you here, you explained perfectly what i wanted to say

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