Silly lab; especially with retrieving

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JNC
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Silly lab; especially with retrieving

Post by JNC » Sat May 28, 2022 12:11 am

I know this topic has probably been hammered into the dirt but our lab does not seem to get it. No we have not force fetched him. Even basic retrieving has never clicked. He just turned 1 and does seem to get better with commands by the week I must say. But now lately it’s been incredible, with the RRT dummy launcher he is like a fish and will bring every dummy to hand and it’s nuts. I try a few drills on land and he tends to drop it halfway, usually after a couple successful throws if I’m lucky. After he watches my other dogs he tends to do better but I swear he gets more distracted than any dog I’ve met. He drops retrieves halfway all the time and will almost never turn back and recover. He was probably 6-8 months or so before understanding lay down as a command. I’m very much so novice and I think this summer he should soak up a lot of knowledge. His drive is nuts, took him out shed hunting also and he never left 20-40 yds swaying back and forth side to side in front even with his pointer brother out 300 yds. I was pleasantly shocked by that. His parents seem to be awesome upland dogs that I met in person a couple times.

My question is, is he likely just a late bloomer? His breeder talked a lot about how these pups would be “too much dog” for anyone that Doesn’t hunt or expects a hunting dog without any training work. My previous dogs I think were on the easy side so this one that’s harder to train just raises some eyebrows. I mean he’s a lab whose 1 that barely retrieves. He apparently now will if it’s water work but on land it’s abysmal at times.

I was always going to set him loose on roosters but waterfowl hunting scares me, I fear he’d be a danger to himself if he doesn’t drastically improve.

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gonehuntin'
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Re: Silly lab; especially with retrieving

Post by gonehuntin' » Sat May 28, 2022 7:13 am

There is just so much you don't understand about dog's. First, he's not so young anymore. When I was still training professionally, I liked getting them at 10 months. Don't get me wrong, he's still young and easily trained, but YOU have not progressed in YOUR knowledge. I would get one of the excellent training programs on the market, the Smart Fetch series being the best I've seen, and go from there. LEARN a good program and follow it in the exact sequence.
LIFE WITHOUT BIRD DOGS AND FLY RODS REALLY ISN'T LIFE AT ALL.

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Re: Silly lab; especially with retrieving

Post by Steve007 » Sat May 28, 2022 1:04 pm

JNC wrote:
Sat May 28, 2022 12:11 am
He was probably 6-8 months or so before understanding lay down as a command.
I have nothing to add to gonehuntin's post, but, just out of curiosity, how many days a week and for how long per session did you try to teach the specific command (should be one word, by the way, not two) and how did you learn how to teach it?

JNC
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Re: Silly lab; especially with retrieving

Post by JNC » Wed Jul 13, 2022 8:39 pm

Well obviously there’s a lot I don’t understand about dogs, hence why I’m seeking wisdom. I have trained 2 other dogs (one 10 yr lab and other 2.5 yr old wirehair) and both have ended up being better than I could ever had expected! Doing my best and just know my dogs live a great life, just hit an obstacle with Chester my lab who is 1.

Well I began doing daily hold conditioning training based on programs I found, skipping actual fetch training while I was doing it. He appears to have improved a lot. Bringing to hand nearly everyday and just keeping him wanting more. I may have overreacted back in May but when you feel like you are wasting the dogs talent it is definitely not a good feeling!

Thanks
Last edited by JNC on Wed Jul 13, 2022 8:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Silly lab; especially with retrieving

Post by JNC » Wed Jul 13, 2022 8:47 pm

Steve007 wrote:
Sat May 28, 2022 1:04 pm
JNC wrote:
Sat May 28, 2022 12:11 am
He was probably 6-8 months or so before understanding lay down as a command.
I have nothing to add to gonehuntin's post, but, just out of curiosity, how many days a week and for how long per session did you try to teach the specific command (should be one word, by the way, not two) and how did you learn how to teach it?
I didn’t notice this post right away! Well it varied based on when he was a real young pup versus when he was much older and it still didn’t seem to click (or just being defiant, was hard to tell). I did it how I had always seen other dogs taught with using a treat from the sitting position and bringing it down their chest or in front of them and moving it to the floor. I guess I’m not sure how long but a few days a week for a few minutes each time but increased a bit as he got older. I don’t doubt a lot of it my was wrongdoing but I just hadn’t encountered it with other dogs and it wasn’t as alarming to me as retrieving. Also, “down” is the command I have always used with any dog.

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Re: Silly lab; especially with retrieving

Post by Swampbilly » Thu Jul 14, 2022 12:27 pm

If it were me I'd back up and regroup a little bit.
+1 on getting comprehensive training material.

You're getting a hand delivery more than likely because you're at waters edge and no where (really) for pup to drop a bumper.
Get yourself a hand delivery on land 1st ,(without pup simply just dropping marks in the training field), and I'd train ALONE without distractions from other dogs or anything else.
Take away the distance pup has to drop marks by keeping them short and manageable as Singles and gradually stretch them out.
Keep retrieving and Obedience separate!

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Re: Silly lab; especially with retrieving

Post by JNC » Thu Jul 14, 2022 6:13 pm

Thanks for the tips, my recent update is retrieving all on land, just keeping it fun right now

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Re: Silly lab; especially with retrieving

Post by Swampbilly » Thu Jul 14, 2022 7:06 pm

JNC wrote:
Thu Jul 14, 2022 6:13 pm
Thanks for the tips, my recent update is retrieving all on land, just keeping it fun right now
That's what you want to do, no pressure on marks, don't do a bunch of meaningless marks everyday, make them count. In other words if you do say, 3 marks- and get a hand delivery on that 2nd and 3rd one, leave it at that on a successful note for the day.
Keep it all separate from yardwork, (Obedience).. You're going to compartmentalize everything and bring it all together later, ON LAND.

Then you'll move into water afterwards.

Know and understand that "tips" can only take you and your dog but so far depending on what your goals are, you'll go farther with comprehensive training material that fits your goals.

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Re: Silly lab; especially with retrieving

Post by JNC » Fri Jul 15, 2022 12:11 am

Appreciate that greatly, I think a lot of novices like myself can read a lot and get a lot out of a dog but it varies so much dog to dog. Wanting to replicate is common for us novice trainers but doesn’t always make sense where THAT dog is at. So my first lab was a pheasant dog and still kicks a$$ at 10 yrs old, with little training beyond blinds and great obedience (I was 16), he’s my pride and joy and really gives the younguns wisdom. I’ll add my own cocky story, we hunted with a group in a high populated pheasant region when He was 6 months and he retrieved every bird of the day, 24 birds. Mind you probably half were luck where many an old setter wanted to not compete but still my group was amazed thinking he’d cause a ruckus. This is all to hand. He wasn’t perfect and did flush some wild but very few. At 6 months everyone was impressed.

My wire is 2.5 and at first was a real spitfire but has turned out great, holds to shot and retrieves birds well and is great, tho we have extra work to do that is ongoing. Retrieving was not like with my first lab of course but he picked up quick. I also learned to pheasant hunt over a pro trained GWP as a kid, my current is close to that for my expectations. He won’t win any trials. Some steadiness and waterfowl work and he’s what I have trained for.

Just my background being in my mid 20s and limited experience.
Last edited by JNC on Fri Jul 15, 2022 12:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Silly lab; especially with retrieving

Post by JNC » Fri Jul 15, 2022 12:16 am

The work at the lake was fun retrieves to see what he would do, I guess in my limited experience I thought he would swim away with it back then honestly because his ground work was so atrocious.

I am curious… I was told once by a pro that balls such as tennis balls ruin more bird dogs than anything and that no proposed hunting dog should have them around. I rid my house of mine but we do use dryer balls which are similar but much softer and this lab of mine got one. He retrieved it over and over, mind you he was younger, then we switch to bumpers and issues came over. Idk what it wAs and now he retrieves them fine after some hold conditioning but still; felt I could add it cuz others told me that was nonsense that starting on a tennis ball could wreck him.

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Re: Silly lab; especially with retrieving

Post by gonehuntin' » Sun Jul 17, 2022 7:45 am

If you analyze that statement from the Pro, why do YOU think he said it?
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Re: Silly lab; especially with retrieving

Post by Sharon » Sun Jul 17, 2022 2:48 pm

JNC

Have you chosen a programme to follow yet?
" We are more than our gender, skin color, class, sexuality or age; we are unlimited potential, and can not be defined by one label." quote A. Bartlett

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Re: Silly lab; especially with retrieving

Post by JNC » Thu Jul 21, 2022 11:01 pm

I have not subscribed to one entirely which may be a mistake. But my dog is doing well, retrieving really well. I have further plans but this has been a mix of recommendations (dogbonehunter) and also Freddy king. Also references to 10 min retriever book and water dog. I appreciate advice.

Asking me what I came to a conclusion to feels unfair, I’m asking some expert advice as gonehuntin’ likely wants it… I remember that trainer stating it caused hard mouth but I’ve seen so many where it was fine. I could see issues using a ball for 2 years but not in using one in first 6 months. I admit I am probably wrong but out of 3 dogs no hard mouth yet.

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Re: Silly lab; especially with retrieving

Post by gonehuntin' » Fri Jul 22, 2022 6:44 am

JNC wrote:
Thu Jul 21, 2022 11:01 pm

Asking me what I came to a conclusion to feels unfair, I’m asking some expert advice as gonehuntin’ likely wants it… I remember that trainer stating it caused hard mouth but I’ve seen so many where it was fine. I could see issues using a ball for 2 years but not in using one in first 6 months. I admit I am probably wrong but out of 3 dogs no hard mouth yet.
Reason I asked that is because too many beginners like yourself ask for advice on every matter but never think about the answer. To train a dog you have to understand a dog. So, when you are taking advice from various people which you should not be doing, you have to read the advice and think about it. If you can't come to a reasonable conclusion about the advice, don't use it.

I'll let you off the hook now. The advice from the pro makes NO sense unless you analyze the reason behind it. Every lab loves to retrieve tennis balls but as with any play time fun, if done wrong it can cause problems. 1: If you throw a ball and he doesn't bring it back, it can cause delivery problems so make sure he brings it to you. 2: Make him drop it in your hand and not sit there and chew on it or it may cause mouth problems. 3: They sometimes swallow them and that creates huge Vet bills. 4: Throw them to much and you can lessen his retrieving desire, wear him out, and ultimately lessen his retrieving drive.

Now, all that being said, think about it. The same things could be said for training bumpers or any toy you let the dog have.

Try to think like a dog and you'll develop and understand your dog. No one, no book, no DVD, no internet advice can do that for you.
LIFE WITHOUT BIRD DOGS AND FLY RODS REALLY ISN'T LIFE AT ALL.

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Re: Silly lab; especially with retrieving

Post by JNC » Sun Sep 04, 2022 2:20 pm

Now that is helpful advice!

My dogs definitely get on a lot of birds and do well. But, like so many others, I overthink things. Generally I still do what makes sense to me once I’m actually out training but just trying to do right by my dogs and improve as I go, making sure I don’t set them up to fail. It feels like such a limited window to really make the most of those first 1-2 developmental years.

All 3 of my dogs I’ve worked with will hunt and retrieve upland pretty well and lots of guys would think they’re pretty great, but I know there is unlocked potential there. Especially with waterfowl and steadiness. I’ve seen a few dogs nearly get shot by breaking and idiots pulling up on birds they shouldn’t.

This is a hard forum to ask questions on, but I trust the sources more. I get that most guys do the bare minimum and flood forums like these asking nonsense.

I do appreciate the advice! I’m not trying to be ‘that guy’ - haha.

- Justin

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Re: Silly lab; especially with retrieving

Post by JNC » Sun Sep 04, 2022 2:32 pm

Here are my two boys, lab is Chester age 1 and wire is Malkom age 2. My British lab Beau is 10.5 but lives at my parents, got him when I was 16.
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Re: Silly lab; especially with retrieving

Post by slistoe » Sun Sep 04, 2022 3:00 pm

Good looking dogs.

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