Too much tracking for young pup?

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HerringBone
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Too much tracking for young pup?

Post by HerringBone » Thu Mar 24, 2022 8:36 pm

Hello all,
This is my first post to the forum. I have some experience in dog training and bird hunting, but I've never had a bird dog before (and thus never trained a bird dog!). This summer I am planning on getting my first bird dog puppy - an Irish setter from hunting lines.

I hope to get as many opportunities to train with live birds as possible, but I am concerned that I may not be able to do it very frequently due to both costs and logistics. I am a renter, not a home owner, in a fairly urban area in a town that does not allow you to keep pigeons (you also cannot trap/catch pigeons). Getting pigeons or game birds like chukar will require considerable time and money for each individual training session, then I have to travel to a suitable area to train. For these reasons, I may not be able to do training with live birds very frequently.

However, tracking and/or hunting dead training seems much more feasible for me. I am really excited to work with the dog on a regular basis. But should I be wary of causing any problems with pointing or anything else in the future if I do too much tracking work? Is timing of these trainings important? For example, should I not work on training to hunt dead until after the dog has had a chance to search for live birds?

Thanks in advance for any thoughts/guidance.

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deseeker
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Re: Too much tracking for young pup?

Post by deseeker » Fri Mar 25, 2022 8:37 am

Welcome to the forum. You didn't put where you live. By saying where you live you might be able to come up with a training partner who has access to birds and training grounds. Another idea is look for a NAVHDA club in your area. Thru them you would have access to training areas, birds, and help with training your new pup. Good luck with your future pup and post some pictures after you get it :D

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Dakotazeb
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Re: Too much tracking for young pup?

Post by Dakotazeb » Fri Mar 25, 2022 10:59 am

You are buying a hunting dog to hunt wild birds. I don't understand why you are so concerned about training the dog to track. But the first year or more you need to concentrate on obedience. Get the dog in the field as much as possible and just let the dog explore and learn. If your dog has a proper breeding he/she will figure things out. I wouldn't worry about any formal training until the dog is about a year and a half old. If your ability to get the dog on birds is limited you may need to enlist and help of a professional trainer and probably send the dog off with the trainer for a few months. Please let us know where you are located and we may be able to steer you in an appropriate direction.
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Re: Too much tracking for young pup?

Post by shags » Fri Mar 25, 2022 11:02 am

You can search events in your area and use the secretaries as contacts for club training days, members who might be willing to get together with you to train, or otherwise help. Look at NAVHDA ( North American Versatile Hunting Dog Association), NSTRA (National Shoot to Retrieve Association), NBHA ( National Bird Hunters Association), AKC (do an event search for both pointing breed field trials and pointing breed hunt tests) and UKC (United Kennel Club) which has acquired American Field.
Visit an event if you can, and talk to folks there.
Check out the venues where these events are held. Sometimes they go on at sportsmens clubs and the like, and there will likely be members who train. If there is a club within reasonable distance, give the contact person a call.
Congrats on the new pup. But you must post pictures....without pics, it didn't happen :D

HerringBone
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Re: Too much tracking for young pup?

Post by HerringBone » Fri Mar 25, 2022 11:37 am

Dakotazeb wrote:
Fri Mar 25, 2022 10:59 am
You are buying a hunting dog to hunt wild birds. I don't understand why you are so concerned about training the dog to track. But the first year or more you need to concentrate on obedience. Get the dog in the field as much as possible and just let the dog explore and learn. If your dog has a proper breeding he/she will figure things out. I wouldn't worry about any formal training until the dog is about a year and a half old. If your ability to get the dog on birds is limited you may need to enlist and help of a professional trainer and probably send the dog off with the trainer for a few months. Please let us know where you are located and we may be able to steer you in an appropriate direction.
I wouldn't say I'm concerned about teaching the dog to track. I'm just excited to work with the dog. I suspect I might only have access to live birds maybe once a month tops? Maybe less often than that. But training to find downed birds I think I could do once a week for far less money. Searching for downed birds that the dog didn't see drop, and potentially tracking a wounded bird are both part of hunting wild birds. I just don't want to make my life harder by working on that too much just because it's more accessible (if that is a problem - that's the point of the question).

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Re: Too much tracking for young pup?

Post by HerringBone » Fri Mar 25, 2022 12:20 pm

I live near Sacramento, CA. I have reached out to the local NAVHDA chapter. They recommended that I get a more versatile breed, though setters are officially recognized by NAVHDA as "versatile". I feel a bit guilty about not being interested in the spirit of NAVHDA since I am only really interested in the upland aspects of NAVHDA. I don't do much duck hunting and setters aren't thought of as particularly effective duck dogs. I was worried that NAVHDA folks might not appreciate someone that isn't very interested in the "versatile" part. Maybe I am overthinking (I am one to do that). And it would be cool if I had an Irish Setter that would retrieve ducks too!

I can't wait to have photos to share!

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Garrison
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Re: Too much tracking for young pup?

Post by Garrison » Fri Mar 25, 2022 1:34 pm

HerringBone wrote:
Fri Mar 25, 2022 12:20 pm
I live near Sacramento, CA. I have reached out to the local NAVHDA chapter. They recommended that I get a more versatile breed, though setters are officially recognized by NAVHDA as "versatile". I feel a bit guilty about not being interested in the spirit of NAVHDA since I am only really interested in the upland aspects of NAVHDA. I don't do much duck hunting and setters aren't thought of as particularly effective duck dogs. I was worried that NAVHDA folks might not appreciate someone that isn't very interested in the "versatile" part. Maybe I am overthinking (I am one to do that). And it would be cool if I had an Irish Setter that would retrieve ducks too!

I can't wait to have photos to share!
Bird dog people are bird dog people no matter the breed. I have gone to some NAVHDA training days with an English Setter and have been made to feel comfortable every time. NAVHDA tests are much less frequent than training days and you do not have to participate in tests or the water work if you don’t plan on testing. NAVHDA is not the style of dog or training I personally enjoy. Not because there is anything inherently wrong with the dogs or the group, good dogs are good dogs. I just prefer the experience of being alone out in the hills doing my own thing on the plentiful wild bird population California has to offer. NAVHDA is a good way to learn and get your dog on some birds with a group of people who are fairly knowledgeable about bird dogs, and happy to share. Even if their dogs are not as pretty 😉, I meant are a different color.😁

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Re: Too much tracking for young pup?

Post by ckirsch » Fri Mar 25, 2022 2:26 pm

Get with the NAVHDA group. I doubt you'll run into anyone who objects to you and your setter. I've been running pointers in NAVHDA for the past fifteen years with no problems. My guess is that most will be intrigued by your dog - I got lots of "I didn't know they'd swim / retrieve" comments. You'll learn a lot and might even decide to take your pup waterfowling at some point.

You'll learn a bunch, gain access to some good training grounds, and meet some potential hunting partners.

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Re: Too much tracking for young pup?

Post by Coveyrise64 » Fri Mar 25, 2022 6:59 pm

For my NAVHDA pups I never started tracking exposure until the pups were pointing birds. For a pup I prefer walks in the field letting them learn to use/trust their nose and work on a good recall.

As an example, for the German Tests there is a lot of focus on tracking and many new owners of VDD (Drahthaars) dogs that test start early exposure to tracking. Thats fine if the dog is required to track a live rabbit or retrieve a 300yd fur drag. Many of those dogs that I have seen struggle at pointing though. All they have been required to do is put their nose to the ground and follow a scent trail, find whatever is the reward, grab it and retrieve to hand. The end result is a dog that might scent a bird and instead of pointing, it tries to catch it because that is their training foundation. If you are doing drags most likely your dog is tracking your path which is counter productive to an actual track. It takes birds, birds, and more birds to develop a bird dog.

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BlessedGirl
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Re: Too much tracking for young pup?

Post by BlessedGirl » Sat Mar 26, 2022 11:57 am

Can't wait to see your dog. :) I know it's already been said twice, but make sure to post lots of pictures!
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Re: Too much tracking for young pup?

Post by RayGubernat » Tue Mar 29, 2022 8:15 am

HB -

First off, there are many ways of getting from here to there with a bird dog. Navhda is certainly one of them and you will come in contact with a bunch of folks with widely different situations, widely different levels of experience and training goals. My advice is to go...watch...learn what you want to do...AND... what you DON'T want to do. Then participate at the level YOU choose. There are Navhda folks who are totally focused on training their dogs for the NA and following tests. They want their dogs to swim after a live duck in a pond. I don't and you may not. They do a "duck drag" where the dog is expected to sniff out and follow the drag to the bird. I don't want my dogs to do that either. I want them to hunt with their heads up, searching for live bird scent, not head down searching for foot scent. Your dog...your choice.

FWIW, I do mess with puppies in the year using puppy treats and encourage them to put their noses down and "hunt dead" , ON COMMND, for those puppy treats. Later on in their lives, that lesson gets used in the field to find downed birds...but that comes LONG after they have learned to find and point the birds.

FWIW, most of my dogs don't see or smell a bird until they are 7 or 8 months old and I don't usually start andy formal birdwork until they are at least 9 months old. If the dog has a decent nose and a decent amount of drive, you will be fine.

i am a HUGE believer in doing the boring, repetitive yardwork first. i want to install the come in command and using heel/whoa drills to install a "stop and stand" command. I do a lot of work on stoppoing and standing, both on the ground and on n elevated surface. I often use a picnic table to set the dog up, style it up and stroke it up. The dog learn, not only to stand there looking pretty, but also learns to enjoy your touch and stroking. putting your hands on a dog is great way to help them to bond with you. You can do ALL of this in the yard, in a relatively small space and it will pay massive dividends when you go afield with the dog.

Don't worry about what you cannot do with your dog becasue of your living arrangements. Focus on what you CAN do, and work with it that way. One thing I will tell you is that if you do the yardwork first and get it done right...the rest will be much easier on both you and the dog. I liken it to installing and testing the brakes and steering in a race car BEFORE you take it out on the track. Much less chance of a wreck that way.

Good luck with your youngster and have fun. Remember...if you are having fun, it is a pretty good bet that the dog is also, but if you ain't having fun, the dog probably is not either.

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Re: Too much tracking for young pup?

Post by oregon woodsmoke » Tue Mar 29, 2022 3:19 pm

HerringBone wrote:
Fri Mar 25, 2022 12:20 pm
......They recommended that I get a more versatile breed.........
Your setter will be fine. You do not need to change breeds.

Possibly, we are having a vocabulary mismatch? I'm not quite sure what you are wanting to do. My bird dogs don't "track" game. They find the birds with air scenting, not tracking, and they learn to "mark the fall" so they see the area where the bird goes down and they go to that area and air scent. They aren't going to be doing much tracking, unless it is an injured bird who is a runner. You don't have to train a dog to track. They are born knowing how to track.

You can be doing memory retrieves, where you put the dog on a stay and throw out three dummies in different directions and then send the dog out to get them one at a time. The dog learns to take direction and the dog learns to mark the fall of all the dummies. When the dog gets good at it, throw three, send him for two and then throw a fourth and send him for that. He can learn to remember where the third one is located and when he has picked up the others, he will go and get that one. That is spaniel training and mostly for dogs who are picking up, but it will be good training for your setter and won't harm his hunting ability in any way and it will give you something to train the dog to do.

Most training is done with dummies, you don't need a lot of live birds. Mostly the live birds are to train your dog to be steady to wing and shot. You might be able to rent homing pigeons for steadiness training, and then buy a few barn pigeons to shoot.

Not many of us have a lot of access to live birds to train with and the live birds are to finish off the training that has been done with the dummies.

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