Bumping Woodcock

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504_Greek
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Bumping Woodcock

Post by 504_Greek » Tue Jan 25, 2022 9:18 pm

Hello everyone! I’m hoping I can get some insight and tips on my 3 year old GSP and pointing woodcock. I live in south Louisiana, so our wild upland birds are limited to woodcock and snipe.
My GSP will point pen raised quail to flush and retrieves them. She’s my first bird dog and to me, I think she does a great job. She will also point wild snipe on our morning walks. I will say she won’t point snipe as well as the quail, but still does a decent job.

Now here’s the problem, she seems to not point woodcock. I’ve only seen her have a solid point at one once and at a couple dead ones we’ve shot. I will say she runs through the woods pretty quickly but seems to be able to find birds. Usually, it’s in pretty thick cover where I can’t really see what she’s doing and only hear/see the birds once they flush. It seems like when we are in the woods she treats it as “play time” and just moves very quickly.

I have shot a few WC over her even though she didn’t point them. The one she did point, I of course missed. I know some say don’t shoot non pointed birds, but I did just to let her know that I’m interested in that particular bird. She doesn’t like to retrieve them but she’s able to find those dead ones in thick cover. Takes a little work to get her to fully retrieve them.

My question is, what can/should I do to get her to point WC? I have some WC wings if that would help.
Should I be correcting her in anyway when she bumps the birds?
Should I stop shooting bumped birds?
Have her work closer so I can see what she’s actually doing?

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gonehuntin'
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Re: Bumping Woodcock

Post by gonehuntin' » Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:54 pm

There is really no way to train for this. Just keep getting her into a ton of birds and STOP SHOOTING THE ONE'S SHE BUMPS!. Eventually the light will come on and she'll start pointing them. I think. Most do. If you can just CATCH her busting one, Yell WHOA!, pick her up and shake her commanding, NO, WHOA! and set her back down where she busted them. The key to this is to keep her close to her and not let her roll until she starts pointing them and you can trust her.
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Garrison
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Re: Bumping Woodcock

Post by Garrison » Wed Jan 26, 2022 4:15 pm

With the stipulation that I have no personal experience with woodcock, I will attempt to answer your question since none of the woodsman/woman have. From what I have gathered from friends and family who have hunted them extensively, they hold reasonably well for a pointing dog, at least compared to grouse and wild covey birds “so I am told”. Which is great for you and training a young dog. I do however have experience with wild birds. Besides a couple of pigeons for my current dog, I train on and hunt all wild birds because they are free, easily accessible, don’t have to be fed and I feel they best help the dog learn.

Many if not most here, whether die hard hunters or not, place class dog work much higher on their priority list than the pursuit of game. If good dog work is what you are after, than you don’t shoot birds and reward lousy work, period. After initial bird introduction and a dog that shows plenty of drive, killing bumped birds or even wild flushes near a dog only creates bad habits, possibly like you are experiencing now. Bird dogs know what birds are no matter their flavor, and will happily point them if given some space/time to figure them out. I said possibly, because I would be hesitant to judge a dog’s behavior who has been given so few opportunities to figure them out, and the opportunities had, have largely been ruined with a Ill placed shot. Bird contacts make bird dogs and having a population of wild birds can really help you out if you use them correctly, as often as humanly possible.

Reeling the dog in can help in the short term in training situations, that is why we start with check cords. Long term it is only a bandaid for the real issue. The whole point of having a pointer is to have them work wider areas so you don’t have to. Don’t turn your dog into a flusher because you don’t put the work into expose and train her. The work really can be the most enjoyable part.

In my experience I have made much more progress with my dogs when the shotgun is away and I am not tempted to shoot. I seem to have much more self control with a blank pistol, and I am much more in tune with the dog if I am not worried about getting a shot. After more experience and prioritizing my goals, that has carried over to the shotgun as well. I only close my shotgun on solid work. Dogs can sense your excitement too, a dog is much less likely to bust a bird if you take your time to leisurely walk over and give them a wide berth while doing so, instead of hustling over and pushing them from behind because you think they are going to break on your one attempt at a bird. Letting them break and watching the bird go is what makes them, you have to let it happen when they are young and let them figure it out without reward.

If she is pointing other birds, it doesn’t sound like she is knowingly just blowing through this one particular species. If she was, I would be rolling her to a stop, on stop to flush work at first and be making darn sure there is no situation where she can catch a planted bird. My setters have always had plenty of point to let them just figure it out on their own, my GSP became a much more honest/cautious dog when he learned he had to stop when birds were in the air. If she continues to blow through them and not figure figure it out and not stopping to flush then it is time to manually install the brakes on the birds.

I have a dog that just turned three, here is our timeline thus far.

Year one my dog bumped chased and had fun, he started pointing and backing.

Year two we got a ton of exposure to wild covey birds and learned how much we could pressure them before they would blow up, I only shot birds that were handled properly, which means not all that many.

Year three, we loaded some tailgates while still only shooting over good dog work, and I still spend the majority of the time with the blank pistol only shooting after good dog work. Good dog work equals more opportunities as a hunter.

Don’t worry about the dog not getting the prize, you and your own pride are worried about it much more than they are. They will learn smelling a bird and hearing a bang is prize enough, and you will probably learn a nice piece of dog work will stay with you much much longer than the tailgate picture of the couple birds your dog blew up close enough for you to shoot.

Garrison
Last edited by Garrison on Wed Jan 26, 2022 5:21 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Garrison
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Re: Bumping Woodcock

Post by Garrison » Wed Jan 26, 2022 4:19 pm

Looks like Gonehuntin beat me to it while I was posting and has much more experience with the birds in question.

X2 probably would of been much easier to write! :lol:
“Heaven goes by favor. If it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in.”
- Mark Twain-

504_Greek
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Re: Bumping Woodcock

Post by 504_Greek » Thu Jan 27, 2022 9:36 am

Thank y’all for the replies!

I will admit, part of it is getting the prize. I’ll have to refrain from shooting them. However, most of it is for the dog because I know she enjoys it. She loves being out in the woods, running free and finding game. That’s 90% of my satisfaction.
I just found it odd that she’s hold point for pen raised quail but not woodcock.
Unfortunately, woodcock are really the only wild birds available to us down here in Louisiana. Our quail numbers have gone down a whole lot. And it’s hit or miss on how many birds we may encounter in the wild.

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Sharon
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Re: Bumping Woodcock

Post by Sharon » Thu Jan 27, 2022 11:10 am

Lots of woodcock in Ontario where I live. I've always found woodcock to be so quick to flush, very attentive to what's going on around them . They don't seem to stay put and hide away like other birds. The dog hardly has a chance to point before the bird takes off from many yards away. This makes a big challenge for the dog.
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Garrison
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Re: Bumping Woodcock

Post by Garrison » Thu Jan 27, 2022 11:43 am

Sharon wrote:
Thu Jan 27, 2022 11:10 am
Lots of woodcock in Ontario where I live. I've always found woodcock to be so quick to flush, very attentive to what's going on around them . They don't seem to stay put and hide away like other birds. The dog hardly has a chance to point before the bird takes off from many yards away. This makes a big challenge for the dog.
I have always heard comparisons between them and how tough Rough Grouse are on a dog, Grouse must be pretty darn challenging! On my bucket list of experiences before I check out.

Chukar are physically the toughest on me, but Mountain Quail are by far the most challenging. I spend the majority of my time 90% chasing them and they are maybe 10% of my take on the year. Thick cover and sneaky birds make it sporty!

Garrison
“Heaven goes by favor. If it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in.”
- Mark Twain-

Willie T
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Re: Bumping Woodcock

Post by Willie T » Fri Jan 28, 2022 10:16 am

Greek, I am in Texas and also a woodcock hunter. I registered to comment on your post. Like the others already posted, stop shooting bumped birds. You are rewarding bad behavior. Some dogs that have been worked a lot on pen raised birds will initially have a tendency to crowd wild birds. Bumping wild birds is the anecdote to learning to handle wild birds. To help you and your dog work through it, move out of the heavy cover to more open woods with isolated thickets where you can see the dog work it’s birds. You won’t find as many but you can see what is taking place. Woodcock do in fact move around on the dog and flush wild if pressed. Your dog has to make its share of mistakes to learn to handle them. Getting further in, when your dog figures it out and gets them pointed, the birds will usually move out from under the dogs point as you approach. So the dog has to learn to move to keep the wind on the bird and relocate to pin them again. If the dog advances into the scent cone the bird will go. Good grouse and woodcock dogs have the commonality of pointing at first scent. It is easy enough to determine if the dogs points are honest. The back of an honest dog will be faced the way the dog was traveling. Usually perpendicular to the wind. The front of the dog will be screwed into the wind. If the trend is a dog that is consistently lined up with its point, it is advancing into the scent. When a bird runs out from under a dogs point, most inexperienced dogs rush to where the bird has been and get a nose full of bird and track with nose to the ground. The result is a bumped bird. Experience and flushed birds teach the dog to keep the wind and with a high head relocate the bird. It takes birds to make a dog. Stay the course and keep putting your dog in them and it will work it out. Stay off the trigger till it gets it right then kill some for her. When you move to more open isolated cover and can see what is taking place, if the dog is intentionally taking birds out, dechasing with pigeons is often a productive training strategy. Good luck working it out.
Willie
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Garrison
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Re: Bumping Woodcock

Post by Garrison » Fri Jan 28, 2022 11:01 am

Great first post Willie we don't often get that, thanks for joining us! Looks as if your boy has enough miles on the odometer to have them pretty well dialed in. If we could just keep the good ones about 6 years old forever!

Garrison
“Heaven goes by favor. If it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in.”
- Mark Twain-

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deseeker
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Re: Bumping Woodcock

Post by deseeker » Fri Jan 28, 2022 12:41 pm

I love gray faced old dogs that know what they are doing :D :D

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