Turning around on water retrieves

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coastalquacker
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Turning around on water retrieves

Post by coastalquacker » Tue Nov 02, 2021 11:02 am

Boykin spaniel. 1 year old, has been force fetched by a pro.....................

I few weeks ago I made a post about my boykin not wanting to enter water on steep banks and having a big issue with cheating the bank. We have worked and worked on this, and the problem is nearly fixed through dozens of reps on increasingly steeper banks and adding in some wing clipped ducks to amp up the drive.
Another problem that is popping up for me is she is starting to turn around on longer retrieves. 30+/- yard retrieves on water are perfect every time, and on land I can run her on 100 yard singles and doubles but when it gets to 50 yd+ retrieves on water, she will swim out about halfway (sometimes less) and turn around. I cannot find any information on this or how to fix it via any posts or any of the books I have.
I've got the thought that it is a confidence thing, but we have been working this on almost daily for over a month now and improvement is negligible.
Some things I have tried so far
1. Working up water retrieves from 20 yards up until 50+ and I will get a refusal once I get to longer distances.
2. Overlaying the "fetch" command while doing water (send dog for retrieve, command "fetch" mid retrieve *Nick* and repeat until bumper is in her mouth.
Option 2 has by far been the most successful, but the next day it seems that the information has been forgotten.

Any information or insight on what to do or try would be greatly appreciated. We failed a HT this weekend because of a turn around mid retrieve on the second water retrieve, and she was flawless on all other aspects of the test so it is very frustrating that I cannot figure out this hang-up in our training.

cjhills
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Re: Turning around on water retrieves

Post by cjhills » Tue Nov 02, 2021 4:59 pm

I don't know anything about retrieving, but I know a lot about hunt tests. Don't let failing a hunt test upset or frustrate you. It is easy to fail.
Sorry, I read your post wrong. I didn't get your frustration was cause by not getting it figured out. That is probably a good thing.
If you nick her and she don't finish the retrieve, what do you do. Do you keep nicking and going higher, until she retrieves or give up and let her quit. Neither option sounds good to me, Sounds like a confidence thing. I think I would back off the training a bit. But a lot better retriever people on here than me. It can get very hard to change some dogs mind if they get too set in their ways. Especially females ...Cj

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Sharon
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Re: Turning around on water retrieves

Post by Sharon » Wed Nov 03, 2021 1:01 pm

I know little about teaching retrieving on the water. I'd think your best source of info would be the other folks you hunt test with , particularly the judges. Any decent judge is always willing to help. We have two spaniel experts on here; hopefully they will respond.

edited as I forgot someone :)
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polmaise
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Re: Turning around on water retrieves

Post by polmaise » Wed Nov 03, 2021 1:41 pm

Sharon wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 1:01 pm
We have one spaniel expert on here; hopefully he will respond.
Yea! C'mon 'Crackered' don't by shy! ....
It's a Boykin .what can go wrong ? ..It's only 1 year old and been FF by a Pro ,what can go wrong ?
It's had an issue with flying in the air into water off high banks ,what can go wrong?
It had an issue with cheating on the return from water ,but that's now a work in progress , what can go wrong?
It now has a self employed reluctance to go the distance ,but option #2 is favored ,but gets no results .what can go wrong?
Disappointing results in competition but for this only action ,what can go wrong?
.....
I've tried a few Cockers and Springers to 'swim against the tide' and it just don't work. Many that made the grade were 'conned' into thinking it was their idea in the first place . "Making a dog want to do something is training it" said Grandpa...

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SwitchGrassWPG
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Re: Turning around on water retrieves

Post by SwitchGrassWPG » Wed Nov 03, 2021 4:27 pm

A few clarifying questions...

How many repetitions are you doing in one session?
At what point do the refusals start?
Are they from the beginning or after you've been at it a while?
Do you stop at a successful retrieve or do you try for "one more"?
Only thing worse than a bad dog is no dog at all...

http://www.switchgrasswpg.com

coastalquacker
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Re: Turning around on water retrieves

Post by coastalquacker » Thu Nov 04, 2021 8:57 am

First off thank you all for the replies.
Secondly, I never said nor implied that I wanted a flying retrieve off high bank. I want a hard charge and no stalling apon entry into the water. For instance, my chessie will hit water in midstride for a retrieve. Not a flashy high jump entry, but simply not stalling at the bank and deciding whether she wants to get in either. The boykin did not want to enter the water on anything other than a gentle sloping bank, which does not equate to a high bank. But as previously mentioned, we have worked on that and built up some confidence and achieving one fluid motion when entering the water.

As far as the water marks go, I would say that I do a maxima of 12 with the usual around 8 or so. Both thrown by myself, as well as a helper. If I stick to shorter retrieves, she will do them no problem and will be waiting for the next one when I put the bumper up for the day. In the area we train, the water is shallow for me to walk in waders but requires her to swim in most places. I do not have access to a technical pond, but will try to figure something out as with the aspects mentioned. I’ve done some work in a area with a water control structure that allows the dog to keep her feet on the ground, but still is in chest deep water throughout the entire retrieve. With this, she’s the same as on land and makes a retrieve everytime to hand without issue. On land the dog is full bore on retrieves. She “keeps a very good line on both the mark and return” according to one of the HT judges.
I simply do not understand what the disconnect is on water. It’s almost as if she gets out and panics when her feet leave solid ground for too long and she has to swim for a while. I’ve even tried putting on waders myself and simply walking through the marsh, where she has to swim to stick with me between shallow areas in an attempt to boost her confidence on swimming. She’s been around and in water from a young age and I have made sure that she views water as a “good thing”.

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gonehuntin'
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Re: Turning around on water retrieves

Post by gonehuntin' » Fri Nov 05, 2021 5:09 pm

What your dog is doing is called "popping" on a retrieve. Sounds like the dog has been forced to a pile with the collar since you're nicking it on fetch in the water. I would NOT nick on the fetch command or the word fetch will lose it's power, plus when the dog doesn't complete the task successfully, it has not only not completed the task, it has refused a command successfully, the fetch command.

Instead substitute BACK for fetch. Fetch should only be used when a dog drops a bird or when it is actually being forced. So, let's assume you dog has gone through FTP (force to pile). When the dog is on a water mark you will be able to tell when it is ready to pop. They'll kind of slow down and start to look to the side a bit. Don't let him pop. Immediately command NO! BACK and nick on the BACK. Do NOT keep nicking him on the way to the mark as long as he's progressing toward it. It you keep doing this, the dog MAY begin to blink the mark or refuse to go. Then you'll be into a major problem. Anyhow, that's how you cure it.

That being said, I'm not sure it isn't YOU that is creating the problem. Sounds like you may be giving the dog too many repetitions. You may be boring him to death. Just work him out gradually on the retrieves. When he does well at 20, go to 30. When he does well at 30, go to 40. Etc. until the pup is doing it willingly and with style. I think you're giving him too many retrieves then making them a house of horrors for him by burning him on the way out. Stop it. Make the marks fun. Blinds can be work but marks "bleep" well better be fun or you won't end up with much of a dog. Buy good waders because you'll be the one making the retrieves.
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