Whats you preference? Steady to...

Post by **grant** » Wed Apr 14, 2004 10:03 pm

Whats you preference? Steady to wing, Steady to wing and shot.... etc.....

raven · Post by **raven** » Thu Apr 15, 2004 9:48 am

I'M WORKING ON STEADY TO WING AND SHOT

TheHooch · Post by **TheHooch** » Thu Apr 15, 2004 10:56 am

Steady to wing and shot

B-townhunter · Post by **B-townhunter** » Tue Apr 20, 2004 10:57 pm

This so far has proved one of the more difficult task to teach my lab, he just wants that bird sooooo bad!

Country-Side Breeders · Post by **Country-Side Breeders** » Wed Apr 21, 2004 5:59 am

I prefer steady to wing and shot. What do you prefer Grant?

terryg · Post by **terryg** » Mon Apr 26, 2004 12:26 pm

i haqve taught several dogs to be steady to wing and shot but it is for other than foot hunters. most gsp and other pointers are poor markers in my experince. i prefer they break on the flush and follow the bird so as to leave few cripples. pheasants seldom die unless they are close and thewy can run like carl lewis even when wounded. i want them grabbed when they hit the ground.

as for the argument that the dog could be shot becasue he is too close to the bird, that is a safety call. if the shot is bad don't take it. i have also found very few of any breed of bird that a dog can get too close to if they are in good health.

steady to wing and shot is pretty but not really useful for the average guy. if that is what you like and train for consider yourself above average.

B-townhunter · Post by **B-townhunter** » Mon Apr 26, 2004 12:30 pm

I think that going after the bird in air is bad not only because they could in theory get shot, but also if you miss a shot even a well trained dog can be overcome with excitment and run after the bird and not stop when the command is given. and pheasants in particular can fly a long ways!!!

12 Volt Man · Post by **12 Volt Man** » Mon Apr 26, 2004 2:26 pm

I am going to work on steady to wing and shot.

terryg · Post by **terryg** » Mon Apr 26, 2004 2:36 pm

sorry b-townhunter. well trained dogs NEVER run after birds when they are called. if the dog runs after it and won't listen to the handletr he is NOT well trained.

as i said, if the shot is not safe you let it go. if the dog runs after a bird and keeps going instead of listening to you he is not well trained.

and just as an aside, if a trainer can't keep a dog from chasing a bird when it flies he will have his hands full when it comes to steady on wing and shot.

B-townhunter · Post by **B-townhunter** » Mon Apr 26, 2004 4:32 pm

I disagree even a well trained dog that hasn't been trained steady to wing will run, dogs have a mind of there own too, all the training in the world wont take that out of them. and if the dog doesn't want to chase the bird, atleast a flushing breed, the dog isn't birdy!

terryg · Post by **terryg** » Mon Apr 26, 2004 4:54 pm

well then we are just gonna have to agree to disagree. i will make ya this offer though. if you invite me out to your place for some nebraska duck and goose hunting along with some of that famous upland nebraska is know for i'll show you how to train a dog do it.

we can mix up hunting in the morning, training at midday, hunting at sundown and eating teill mwe go to bed.

what do ya think?

B-townhunter · Post by **B-townhunter** » Mon Apr 26, 2004 4:59 pm

you forgot the beer drinking in the evening....

Setter Man · Post by **Setter Man** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 10:14 pm

btown,

Ever heard the ole theory "you can learn more from listening than talking"

BTW I train my trial dogs wing and shot (broke) and hunting dogs dead bird......it only makes sense.

B-townhunter · Post by **B-townhunter** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 10:22 pm

you know setterman, I am really getting tired of your crap, I don't claim to be a pro, or to even know alot. Just stating that I don't agree and that dogs no matter how well trained can bolt, or have a lapse and not obey all commands, you should know, you seem to be an expert.

Setter Man · Post by **Setter Man** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 10:55 pm

RELAX btownhunter

Lisalongun · Post by **Lisalongun** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 1:50 am

I agree with B-townhunter.

Dogs are thinking, sentient beings - and if you cannot respect and train them with this in mind - then surely it is as good as brain-washing.

Would be interesting to know how many dogs they have given up on as they don't 'work/learn to the schedule'

The skill of dog training is to train a behaviour that the dog is finding extremely hard to learn - not force it!

Some people on this forum - and I am amazed as only a few days ago I recommended it to someone as it was a friendly, informative site - have taken to slating people training and techniques if they don't agree with theirs.

Small-minded and controlling comes to mind - obviously they way they train their dogs too!

Lisa

Country-Side Breeders · Post by **Country-Side Breeders** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 5:58 am

grantc2 wrote:Here's my $.02..... I'm all for debates, as long as they are not abusive, obscene, vulgar, slanderous, hateful, threatening, or sexually-oriented etc...bla...bla...bla....

Let's everyone keep this in mind!

Post by **grant** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 9:00 am

Thanks Country-Side Breeders!

Post by **grant** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 9:24 am

I prefer steady to wing and shot.

I work at a plantation from time to time and I saw one of the plantations best dogs get shot and killed this year. He was not steady to wing and shot, and I believe that had he of been, he would be alive today.

The Owners noticed how attached I am with my dogs and had warned me about the dangers a gun dog faces, especially when the dog is hunted over often by plantation customers. This is why I do not guide commercial hunts with Bell or Carl. I guess some plantation customers have no relationship with the dog, so they aren't as careful when shooting.

So, not only for safety reasons, but I just think it makes my dogs a bit more refined to be steady to wing and shot.

grousehunter · Post by **grousehunter** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 12:02 pm

There is never any excuse for a dog being shot. It doesnt matter how the dog is trained. My dog isnt steady to shot and I dont want him to be, but I guarantee I will never shoot him either. People that "accidently" shoot their dogs should have there gun and dogs taken away.

Post by **grant** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 1:03 pm

I can see where these mistakes, or occurrences for better words, happen. Especially, when you have a dog that is not steady to wing and shot that give chase as soon as the bird is flushed, pen raised birds that fly slow and low unlike wild birds, and hunters that come to the plantation with little hunting experience. Under the above circumstances, these occurrences are bound to happen.

Even for the experienced hunter, when your aiming at the bird that is flying low and slow, it can be hard to see the dog about to leap for the bird.

As for me, when I hunt, I keep my dogs position in mind before I pull the trigger. My dogs life is not worth a $2.95 quail....

grousehunter · Post by **grousehunter** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 2:24 pm

I hunt nothing but wild birds so maybe its a little different, once they get up they dont mess around. But nevertheless, I wouldnt risk my dog for a bird either.

terryg · Post by **terryg** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 1:25 pm

you can make all the excuses in the world for not shooting safely but that doesn't change the truth.

the first rule of gun safety is never point your gun at something unless you are sure of the target.

i don't mince words with someone that thinks guns do things accidentally. there are no "accidents" with guns. only intentional things that were not thought out properly.

not only would i keep my dog away from these reckless fools i would stay clear of them myself. no telling when they are gonna cliaim they "accidently" shot you cause you leaped in their way.

and FYI , in calif if you shoot a dog or a person by "accident" your hunting priviledge is revoked for a minimum of 5 years and could be gone for life. you may also be open to criminal charges as well as civil suit.

Post by **grant** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 2:30 pm

Terryg, who is making excuses, and who used the word accident? Are you just giving an example?

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Sat May 08, 2004 10:22 pm

STK (Steady to Kill) is a beautiful thing. If I were trialing, testing, or hunting planted poultry with idiots I'd have all my dogs steady, and stopping on first scent!

I do none of the above though as a rule. Most of the time our birds refuse to hold at all so it's a constant battle of point and relocate in order to simply get a good shot. Out here due to wind, terrain, and mesquite, often even if you have a picture perfect point, birds that hold, and are a good quick shooter, your first shot is often at 30 yards and your second at forty or more. When the birds go down because of the range and shooting through thick trees often they are still very much alive and can then disappear into the middle of cactus heck or down a rat, badger, or other varmint hole!

I want my dogs to stay staunch as long as the birds are there, break on the rise, but I'm able to whoah them at any point.

Never shoot at a low flier, never shoot unless you know all the dogs, and people are clear... . that's just basic safety.

I hear horror stories all the time of dogs being killed "accidentally" but the only cases I can verify where dogs actually were, was with two preserve dogs, and a preserve guide actually. One of the dogs was shot by an idiot walking up to a point with his safety off and finger on the trigger, who tripped and killed the pointed dog. The other was a dog chasing a wounded cripple, and again an idiot did something stupid and shot the dog trying to kill the bird. The guide himself was shot severely by another idiot shooting at a wild flushing bird. Unfortunately all this happend in about a nine month period and the poor man is no longer in the business because of it.

Were I guiding on a preserve I'd take the european approach and teach my dogs to actually lay down on point as the hunters approached, and I'd always walk up to the points directly BEHIND the shooter for my own safety.

I have two dogs that I will hunt test and or begin trialing next year so they are being broken STK now. It takes a lot more work from what I'm told to do so after the dogs have had a great deal of wild bird work, but I'm finding it very easy.

As to the chasing, I don't own a dog that's hunted a season I can't whoa under any circumstances, nor one that won't come when called so I don't find it an issue. We get a lot of very far flying cripples though and somehow the dogs seem to know when a bird is hit and not going down. It's not unusual to have a number of birds retreived through the season I couldn't even tell were hit, 100-200 yards from flush to fall. If my experienced dogs follow them I let them barring safety concerns because they've all learned not to bother with the chase unless they know one is gong down eventually; and I simply HATE to leave a dead or crippled bird for the predaors and scavengers. Wild birds are a precious resource out here and are wort their weight in gold, especially on bad years. CR

Post by **Ayres** » Sun May 09, 2004 1:15 pm

Really, if you're worried about shooting your dog then just don't shoot.

If you're confident in your shot, then take it. I've rolled a rabbit five feet in front of a chasing dog before, no problem. You could even describe the rabbit as a "low flier". The thing is, there's basically no other way to rabbit hunt with dogs. You just gotta get them running perpendicular to you, and take out the rabbit with a short lead shot. It's a similar fashion with flushed birds; if you've got the shot and are confident, then take it. If not, don't.

I've heard lots of things about steady to wing & shot, and if I'm not mistaken, I believe that's actually preferred at field trials. However, I want my dog to be able to mark the bird. Delmar Smith has a nice method to do this, using a simple bowline knot tied about six inches from the collar-end of the checkcord. When the bird flushes, you whip the slack in the checkcord and give pup a delicate thwack under the chin with that knot. It teaches him to raise his head, yet not break out against a woah command. This allows him to look up and mark the bird, but not move to get in the way. It's the method I'm going to use when training my dog.

For reference, the book I'm using is by Bill Tarrant, called "The Best Way to Train Your Gun Dog, the Delmar Smith Method" and it's affectionately called the "green book," because of its green outer cover, by most members of the Vizsla Club of Illinois and other similar clubs. As a side note: my recommendation of this book comes just because I've read it and a lot of things in it made sense to me. I've not actually used the methods myself, and my recommendation is just a recommendation, not a claim that all other methods are crap.

'Wouldn't wanna ruffle any feathers, so to speak.

In response to WildRose above... I'm sorry to hear of those stories. I wonder if those hunters ever took a hunter safety education course? Whenever I go out with a person new to hunting (like my fiance) I always find it helpful to tell them to mimick what I do, and never take a shot with anyone at any forward angle to you other than 180 degrees. And then I always keep an ear listening for clicks of the safety switch. I don't teach anyone how to hunt, because I'm of the belief that it comes naturally after awhile... but I do teach how "not" to hunt, so noone gets shot. (By the way, my fiance has turned out to be a teriffic shot, so I'm not worried about her hitting anything she didn't aim at)

Setter Man · Post by **Setter Man** » Mon May 10, 2004 10:04 pm

Hello,
The whole POINT behind this thread is GUN SAFETY!
Use your HEAD when hunting with a dog.....
Wing and shot is excellent (experienced trainers only) otherwise steady to wing is desired, a dog that is steady either way does not have a disadvantage to a dog that breaks upon making game.
A good bird dogwill almost always make the retrieve regardless if he stood broke or not (wing and shot) put him in the area and tell him dead bird...............BINGO

Just my opinion but it has been a proven technique and I use it daily.

REMEMBER OPINIONS ARE LIKE A....HOLES EVERYONE HAS ONE!

PATIENCE PRAISE PERSISTENCE
not everyone are trainers some are owners?