Pup not pointing

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Hillbilly kennel
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Pup not pointing

Post by Hillbilly kennel » Sat Oct 16, 2021 11:20 am

I have 7 month old gsp male, he has had 4 quail and 2 pigeons, he just roads in on bird not pointing, I have been popping the last few when I know he smells them, he wants to chase but I have him on check cord, I set him back take to next bird and does the same thing, gave him about a 4 week break from birds and still not pointing, he pointed a wing on string at 8 weeks old and I only done that one time, he is getting whoa ok so far but I don’t want to stop him with whoa, I want him to point on his own, some people say more birds, some say less birds, I have never seen a pup that wouldn’t point , I have plenty of birds but not sure what is best thing to do next

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Garrison
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Re: Pup not pointing

Post by Garrison » Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:10 pm

What do you mean by “he has had 4 Quail and 2 pigeons”? Did he catch any birds?

If the pup is well bred, he will point in due time. He needs to learn he can’t catch birds, restraining him with a check cord can keep that light bulb turned off. If he is fighting a cord his brain is in trying to break free and get to the prize mode. I would start with unrestrained exposure to hard flying birds that can’t be caught, like you would a young pup. Let him be a pup and run, bump and chase birds. Unless he is a real knot head, he will learn he can’t catch them. At the moment he thinks he can.

If you don’t have wild birds that you can work (which would be ideal), set out a couple launchers and pop them as soon as it looks like he catches first sent or gets in proximity where he can see them fly off.

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Hillbilly kennel
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Re: Pup not pointing

Post by Hillbilly kennel » Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:32 pm

No he hasn’t caught any birds, I don’t want him to chase he would if I let him, but I’ve always thought if I don’t let them start chaseing I don’t have to stop it later, I plan on Running him in hunt test so he needs to learn to be steady, he has plenty of prey drive

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Sharon
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Re: Pup not pointing

Post by Sharon » Sat Oct 16, 2021 2:51 pm

Well, I gave you(by PM) the same advice as Garrison. :) It doesn't sound like you have heard either of us though. :)

"No he hasn’t caught any birds, I don’t want him to chase ; he would if I let him, but I’ve always thought if I don’t let them start chasing I don’t have to stop it later, I plan on running him in hunt test so he needs to learn to be steady, he has plenty of prey drive." quote Hillbilly Kennel

As I said, lots of time to stop him from chasing. Soon as he starts hesitating on the chase /brief points then it's time for the check cord. He'll learn to be steady, but not at 7 months. Some stages shouldn't be missed.
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Re: Pup not pointing

Post by Hillbilly kennel » Sat Oct 16, 2021 2:58 pm

I’ve seen to many dogs ruined by letting them chase and chase they have a dog 6 years old they still can’t trust not to chase

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Garrison
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Re: Pup not pointing

Post by Garrison » Sat Oct 16, 2021 6:03 pm

Then why are you asking a bunch of people who have, and know how to install brakes on a dog if you got it all figured out?
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Re: Pup not pointing

Post by DonF » Sat Oct 16, 2021 10:29 pm

It's not the pup, it's the trainer. Don't train him to do what you want, teach him how to get what he wants. Sounds like you have remote traps, best thing you can do is learn how to make your pigeons act like wild birds and then do that! Wring the quails necks and have them for dinner! Pigeons are the best training birds! That is my opinion and I have done it with pigeons, quail and chukar. Little known secrete about dogs, they don't have a clue what type bird your using they only know what they learn that get's them the bird! The bird is what they want. What you have to do is learn to make the bird act like a wild bird! Bear in mind when using the traps, you need to know exactly where the trap is and which way the breeze is going through it and about where the scent cone is and when the dog enters it, let the dog chase! What you are teaching right now by stopping him all the time so you don't have to fix it later is to simply leave the bird alone, keep it up and at some point he will quit on you!

I have a friend that decided she'd train on game birds and today she has a really really nice dog that won't point a pen raised bird but is great on wild birds. She had turned her pen raised birds into training birds and her dog want's none of it. Dog is great on wild birds. Don't be a trainer, become a teacher!
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Re: Pup not pointing

Post by Coveyrise64 » Sat Oct 16, 2021 10:44 pm

Perfection Kennels post live videos of their training methods on Facebook every Tues and Thur at noon. This video is about a dog that would not point.

https://fb.watch/8Ho9TqqWEo/

I've seen nothing beneficial come from letting a dog chase launcher birds and I've launched a bunch of them.

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Re: Pup not pointing

Post by slistoe » Sun Oct 17, 2021 8:06 am

Coveyrise64 wrote:
Sat Oct 16, 2021 10:44 pm
Perfection Kennels post live videos of their training methods on Facebook every Tues and Thur at noon. This video is about a dog that would not point.

https://fb.watch/8Ho9TqqWEo/

I've seen nothing beneficial come from letting a dog chase launcher birds and I've launched a bunch of them.

cr
I've helped a number of folks fix their dog that they had convinced that birds were no fun and should be ignored. In your video there is no attempt to eliminate the chase, he is simply using the cord to control the chase and then move on to the next bird. He is not doing anything to discourage the dog from chasing.

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Re: Pup not pointing

Post by Garrison » Sun Oct 17, 2021 9:28 am

They also suggest,

“A dog won’t point if they think they can catch a bird.”

“you can place the releases on a young pup’s run on the course”

“A dog pulling on a check cord won’t point”


My question is, how will a pup ever know it can’t catch a bird, unless it is given the opportunity to try? As slistoe pointed out, the drill has zero to do with eliminating chase and everything to do with control of a dog while introducing launchers for the first time. In my opinion we need to remember we are talking about 7 month old pup. There is a time for eliminating chase, but it doesn’t come before a pup has had a chance to learn how to use the tools it was born with to hunt, figure out what game is, figure out that his actions make it fly away and has been introduced properly to the gun.

Garrison
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Re: Pup not pointing

Post by Garrison » Sun Oct 17, 2021 9:34 am

Great video btw, so glad they put them out for the public. Thanks for sharing.

Garrison
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Re: Pup not pointing

Post by mask » Sun Oct 17, 2021 10:30 am

if the pup is chasing he already shows prey drive. I would not let him chase any more until he is pointing well. It sounds as though he is fast becoming inclined to be a flusher. You might try carded pigeons. The book training with Mo might be worth trying. If nothing else works a new pup might be in order. Best of luck and I hope he comes around and works out well for you.

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Re: Pup not pointing

Post by polmaise » Sun Oct 17, 2021 12:06 pm

Some young pointing breeds ,especially Hpr's don't point until over a year old.
Everything dependent on what time of year the dog was born -nurture , training, availability of ground and game etc etc.
Wing on a string is a sight point, and you really don't want that ,although it makes great movies for some.
If 'Wullie/Trekmoor' was still here, he would tell you that the game teaches the bird dog to point .And a check cord is just an interruption to a 'Teaching hunt and point' .

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Re: Pup not pointing

Post by Garrison » Sun Oct 17, 2021 2:01 pm

The question and answer at minute 4:00 is germane to the conversation.

https://youtu.be/xN9Bj7x0jx4
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Re: Pup not pointing

Post by slistoe » Sun Oct 17, 2021 2:07 pm

Garrison wrote:
Sun Oct 17, 2021 2:01 pm
The question and answer at minute 4:00 is germane to the conversation.

https://youtu.be/xN9Bj7x0jx4
Now if there was anyone I would listen to about how to develop and bring on a dog, Ferrell Miller would be right up there at the top of the list.

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Re: Pup not pointing

Post by polmaise » Sun Oct 17, 2021 2:18 pm

slistoe wrote:
Sun Oct 17, 2021 2:07 pm
Now if there was anyone I would listen to about how to develop and bring on a dog, Ferrell Miller would be right up there at the top of the list.
Brilliant! Now show us Yours . That would be great, based on the top of the list .
Be real good viewing and educational for us all .Thanks.
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Re: Pup not pointing

Post by slistoe » Sun Oct 17, 2021 3:47 pm

polmaise wrote:
Sun Oct 17, 2021 2:18 pm
slistoe wrote:
Sun Oct 17, 2021 2:07 pm
Now if there was anyone I would listen to about how to develop and bring on a dog, Ferrell Miller would be right up there at the top of the list.
Brilliant! Now show us Yours . That would be great, based on the top of the list .
Be real good viewing and educational for us all .Thanks.
I love a good listener and even more , one that listened and learned , then emulated .
Sorry - no videos. I hardly take pictures - I am busy either training or hunting when I am out with the dogs and I have no need to promote myself - I am not out to sell anything and I don't train professionally so no need to document for clients etc.

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Re: Pup not pointing

Post by Coveyrise64 » Sun Oct 17, 2021 8:14 pm

slistoe wrote:
Sun Oct 17, 2021 8:06 am
Coveyrise64 wrote:
Sat Oct 16, 2021 10:44 pm
Perfection Kennels post live videos of their training methods on Facebook every Tues and Thur at noon. This video is about a dog that would not point.

https://fb.watch/8Ho9TqqWEo/

I've seen nothing beneficial come from letting a dog chase launcher birds and I've launched a bunch of them.

cr
I've helped a number of folks fix their dog that they had convinced that birds were no fun and should be ignored. In your video there is no attempt to eliminate the chase, he is simply using the cord to control the chase and then move on to the next bird. He is not doing anything to discourage the dog from chasing.
I didn't say the video had anything to do stopping the chase. It showed the OP the steps PK uses to help in developing point. The dog featured had shown little desire to point birds so I'm not sure where you came up with the notion birds were no fun or the dog ignored birds. Please try and stay up with the conversation.

Control the chase or eliminate the chase ? I see very little difference but I imagine the check cord and the 250lbs on the other end would go along way in dealing with either.

cr
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Re: Pup not pointing

Post by Garrison » Mon Oct 18, 2021 10:50 am

Coveyrise64 wrote:
Sun Oct 17, 2021 8:14 pm
slistoe wrote:
Sun Oct 17, 2021 8:06 am
Coveyrise64 wrote:
Sat Oct 16, 2021 10:44 pm
Perfection Kennels post live videos of their training methods on Facebook every Tues and Thur at noon. This video is about a dog that would not point.

https://fb.watch/8Ho9TqqWEo/

I've seen nothing beneficial come from letting a dog chase launcher birds and I've launched a bunch of them.

cr
I've helped a number of folks fix their dog that they had convinced that birds were no fun and should be ignored. In your video there is no attempt to eliminate the chase, he is simply using the cord to control the chase and then move on to the next bird. He is not doing anything to discourage the dog from chasing.
I didn't say the video had anything to do stopping the chase. It showed the OP the steps PK uses to help in developing point. The dog featured had shown little desire to point birds so I'm not sure where you came up with the notion birds were no fun or the dog ignored birds. Please try and stay up with the conversation.

Control the chase or eliminate the chase ? I see very little difference but I imagine the check cord and the 250lbs on the other end would go along way in dealing with either.

cr
Slistoe can and does speak for himself, but in my reading of the comment, I didn’t translate the direction or purpose in the the same fashion. A common issue with this type of communication.

Perhaps the comment was not directed towards your, or Perfection Kennels’ proven ability to read and train a dog to a high level. I read it as more of an extension of DonF’s experience quoted below, and directed toward the original poster, who is the subject of this conversation and who has said he is picking up a pup and setting it back after the pup pulls in on a check cord and does not point birds. Not a practice that seems to be working for him. Not a practice used in the video, not a practice used by Mr. Miller, not a practice used by many of the folks I have been lucky enough to train with, and probably not a practice you subscribe to either.

“What you are teaching right now by stopping him all the time so you don't have to fix it later is to simply leave the bird alone, keep it up and at some point he will quit on you!”

Garrison
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Re: Pup not pointing

Post by Coveyrise64 » Mon Oct 18, 2021 12:28 pm

Garrison wrote:
Mon Oct 18, 2021 10:50 am

Slistoe can and does speak for himself, but in my reading of the comment, I didn’t translate the direction or purpose in the the same fashion. A common issue with this type of communication.

Perhaps the comment was not directed towards your, or Perfection Kennels’ proven ability to read and train a dog to a high level. I read it as more of an extension of DonF’s experience quoted below, and directed toward the original poster, who is the subject of this conversation and who has said he is picking up a pup and setting it back after the pup pulls in on a check cord and does not point birds. Not a practice that seems to be working for him. Not a practice used in the video, not a practice used by Mr. Miller, not a practice used by many of the folks I have been lucky enough to train with, and probably not a practice you subscribe to either.

“What you are teaching right now by stopping him all the time so you don't have to fix it later is to simply leave the bird alone, keep it up and at some point he will quit on you!”

Garrison
Nope, not a method I subscribe to.....and I don't follow the PK method explicitly. I do what works for me and the situation.

Follow up PK video 2 days later with the same dog. Dog work starts about the 15:00 mark.
https://www.facebook.com/watch/live/?re ... o_explicit

cr
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Pup not pointing

Post by slistoe » Mon Oct 18, 2021 12:45 pm

Three and four-way conversations on these formats can be hard to follow. Thank you Garrison for taking the time.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Re: Pup not pointing

Post by Garrison » Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:18 pm

Coveyrise64 wrote:
Mon Oct 18, 2021 12:28 pm
Garrison wrote:
Mon Oct 18, 2021 10:50 am

Slistoe can and does speak for himself, but in my reading of the comment, I didn’t translate the direction or purpose in the the same fashion. A common issue with this type of communication.

Perhaps the comment was not directed towards your, or Perfection Kennels’ proven ability to read and train a dog to a high level. I read it as more of an extension of DonF’s experience quoted below, and directed toward the original poster, who is the subject of this conversation and who has said he is picking up a pup and setting it back after the pup pulls in on a check cord and does not point birds. Not a practice that seems to be working for him. Not a practice used in the video, not a practice used by Mr. Miller, not a practice used by many of the folks I have been lucky enough to train with, and probably not a practice you subscribe to either.

“What you are teaching right now by stopping him all the time so you don't have to fix it later is to simply leave the bird alone, keep it up and at some point he will quit on you!”

Garrison
Nope, not a method I subscribe to.....and I don't follow the PK method explicitly. I do what works for me and the situation.

Follow up PK video 2 days later with the same dog. Dog work starts about the 15:00 mark.
https://www.facebook.com/watch/live/?re ... o_explicit

cr
Another good watch, thanks for posting it. It’s helpful to see the progression in real time. I think a lot of the questions fielded on this forum are from folks who are too focused on the result instead of process to get there. I know it took me some time to relax and go along for the ride. Develop vs Train

It’s kind of like being a contractor and talking to a customer who just watched a few episodes of HGTV and thinks an entire remodel can be fit into a 30 minute episode.

Garrison
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Re: Pup not pointing

Post by Sharon » Mon Oct 18, 2021 2:10 pm

" I think a lot of the questions fielded on this forum are from folks who are too focused on the result instead of process to get there. " quote Garrison

That is so true!
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Re: Pup not pointing

Post by Idylwyld » Mon Oct 18, 2021 4:13 pm

FWIW,
A pup that age I put them on quail in a recall house. I let them rip em out and chase til their tongue hangs out. I am introducing them to blank pistol and shotgun during this time. Firing blanks and then shot gun while they are chasing.
What inevitably happens? They get tired of chasing and next thing you know they are pointing. Problem solved.
The only thing better than recall birds is running them on wild birds in the middle N Dakota in late July.

Once I start formal training they dont get to chase until they are broke. I do ALL formal training on carded feral pigeons that I trap myself.

Heres a GSP pup at 11 weeks old, had a few birds left over from my training and moved them to pasture in front of the house and played with a pair of GSP pups on them. I think this was his second time on recall birds. I did not even have a blank pistol with me, he surprised me by locking up. The fun part is watching his sister in the back ground take a jack rabbit for a ride.
The second video is when I put that same dog up for sale.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Qh_u78 ... K&index=18
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDRMoFt ... K&index=10

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Re: Pup not pointing

Post by DonF » Fri Dec 17, 2021 12:08 pm

Think you said you pop the bird? That seem's to indicate you have remote release traps? if you do, use them! Let the pup drag the cord and plant the birds so you know exactly where they are and where the wind is coming from. Turn the pup loose and soon as it enters the scent cone pop the bird, do not give him a chance to point it. Do that until pup point's before you release the bird. Try to get past the pup to the bird and if it so much as glaces out the cornor of it's eye at you pop the bird! Withing a very short time the pup should be pointing the bird. Keep in mind when you pop the bird, keep your mouth shut and go on. Do not catch the pup and back it up. What you'll be doing it teaching the pup what moves the bird Not training what you think you want even thoug they may be the same thing.

If you want the pup not to chase, traing whoa very well then take it back in the yard. Let the pup runaround with it's shock collar on and it gets near you whoa it. Once it is whoed toss a pigeont out. The pup will break and you shock immediately. You are enforcing whoa with a good distraction. Do it till the pup doesn't break then when the pup comes around, do not give the whoa command, meerly release the pigeon. Pup then stops or shock it. The idea is your teaching the pup that a bird flushing means whoa!
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Re: Pup not pointing

Post by polmaise » Fri Dec 17, 2021 1:23 pm

Hillbilly kennel wrote:
Sat Oct 16, 2021 11:20 am
I have 7 month old gsp male, he has had 4 quail and 2 pigeons, he just roads in on bird not pointing, I have been popping the last few when I know he smells them, he wants to chase but I have him on check cord, I set him back take to next bird and does the same thing, gave him about a 4 week break from birds and still not pointing, he pointed a wing on string at 8 weeks old and I only done that one time, he is getting whoa ok so far but I don’t want to stop him with whoa, I want him to point on his own, some people say more birds, some say less birds, I have never seen a pup that wouldn’t point , I have plenty of birds but not sure what is best thing to do next
Where in any book or training program does it say a bird dog of any breed inc gsp, that they should all be pointing at 7 months old , or even older? Disregard them if you do find them.
If you don't want to stop him with 'whoa', then don't stop him with any command!?...If you want him to stop on his own, then let him do it!?..
Perhaps you should see more pups that didn't point , but now do with the right exposure?
If you have plenty birds like you say', then maybe release them and let them live wild for a while, I'm sure a good dog , even a pup will find them rather than any clinical set up to achieve an end goal without the meat part of the product. You will lose some, but hey' you have plenty.

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Re: Pup not pointing

Post by gonehuntin' » Fri Dec 17, 2021 2:04 pm

That perfection vid is a nice one and directly addresses your problem from 30 minutes on. If a dog is birdy I will NEVER let one chase and I do it just a bit different than perfection. When I pop the bird, I give them a bit of slack so they get jerked when they hit the end of the CC. I feel they learn two things at one time: Not to bust a bird or it flies and not to chase or they get dumped. I'm in the same camp the others are in; either you're not using the launchers correctly or your too impatient.
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Re: Pup not pointing

Post by DonF » Mon Dec 20, 2021 12:13 pm

Sitting here thinking about when I started Stormy. Never had a dog start so slow! Not much interest in birds at all till he hit 11 mos. Then the light turned on and you could not tell it was ever off! Each pup will start doing it in their own time I think. In contrast to Stormy I have his son, Snicker. Got him back at about 9mos and he'd never been on a bird. He was a deamon from the git go! One of the biggest problems I think trainer have with dog's it over thinking the whole training process. back up and proceed at the pup's pace.

Snicker at about 10 mos. bear in mind that he saw his first planted bird about 9 1/2 mos.

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