Old dog, new trick: Training a rescue

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Bdg848
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Old dog, new trick: Training a rescue

Post by Bdg848 » Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:06 pm

Hello all, a couple years ago I adopted a 7 year old GSP from the humane society. He is 9 now. I have no idea what his background is or what experience with birds he had but based on how he handles birds, my guess is none. He has insane bird drive but won't point on scent. He will follow scent in until he flushes the bird and then chases. I got some pigeons to train on and thought we were making progress; when we came in at a right angle to the scent cone at about 10 yards, he would turn and point nicely and then I'd add a little correction on the lead when he thought about moving.

Today, however, we came into the field from the down wind side. He caught scent and worked that scent cone in to about 5 yards before I had to stop him with the lead or else he would have caught my carded pigeon. He basically did this for all the birds I put out, following scent in until he saw the bird or I stop him, a total contrast to coming in at a right angle.

I have some homing pigeons that will be ready to fly in a month or two and I plan on getting a remote launcher (side note: if any one has some used remote launchers to sell, I am a buyer.) I plan going back a step with the homers and launchers and bring him in from a right angle to the wind again and pop the birds if he moves after the initial point. What should I be doing beyond that? How far down wind should I bring him in? I've been doing about 10. Should I bring him in farther downwind? When we come in from straight down wind, how far out do I pop the birds when he is working that scene cone in? First scent? Solid face full of scent?

I have a young dog who is progressing very well and hope to hunt both dogs together and I would love to get the old boy to a point where I could see him hunt a few seasons with the young dog before he gets too old. I'd appreciate any tips you could offer. Thanks.

weimdogman
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Re: Old dog, new trick: Training a rescue

Post by weimdogman » Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:40 am

Bring the dog in cross wind and stop them the minute they turn to the scent.

birddogger2
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Re: Old dog, new trick: Training a rescue

Post by birddogger2 » Tue Apr 06, 2021 12:32 pm

weimdogman wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:40 am
Bring the dog in cross wind and stop them the minute they turn to the scent.
X2 on this. It is absolutely critical that you launch the bird and pop the checkcord to freeze the dog in place the very instant the dog signals that it detects bird scent.

DO NOT wait for the dog to establish point. Before you bring the dog in, test the wind with unscented talc so you know EXACTLY how the wind is behaving. Know precisely where the trap with the bird is located, so you can be prepared to execute the training sequence.

When you see the dog signal that it scents the bird( a turn of the head, a lift(or drop) of the nose, etc)...launch the bird and pop the checkcord THAT INSTANT.

You may wish to go over your "plan of action" in a "dry run". It is absolutely critical that your timing be spot on, so the dog knows exactly what it did to cause the bird to fly...AND... the bird flying caused the pop to the checkcord.

The dog has to learn to stop on first scent. It has been roading in on birds for a long time, so this lesson may take some time to sink in. The dog has to come to understand that what it has been doing is no longer acceptable...and that is going to take some time, repetitions and patience on your part. The dog has to basically "unlearn" the roading in and flushing behavior and that ain't gonna happen without multiple repetitions and mild corrections.

Do not be in a hurry with this and get heavy handed with the corrections as that can lead to a dog avoiding the bird to avoid the correction. It is called "blinking" and too much negative pressure can cause this, which can often be a truly difficult problem to correct, so it is best avoided. Patience, and keep your cool. If you are getting frustrated...QUIT and go do something else.

It may also be useful for you to go to the dog, after the bird has been launched and the checkcord correction issued and physically pick the dog up, walk back a step or two, set the dog down...GENTLY... and stroke it up. I like to set my dogs down front feet first and then slowly and gently lower the back end down while pushing forward a bit and finishing off with an upward stroke to the tail. It lets them know what you wan them to do and that if they do it YOUR way, they get stroked, not corrected. In essence you take a negative pressure correction and turn it into a positive, pleasant experience for the dog. Dogs like getting stroked and handled. The push on the back end causes the dog to "dig in" and RESIST being pushed forward., which is EXACTLY the response you want the dog to have.

Patience, persistence, insistence and gentle, timely corrections will get you where yo need to be. No need to rush this. You have all spring and all summer. As the dog gets better and better at stopping on first scent, you might occasionally toss a second bird to really get the dogup on its toes.

Another thing you can do to mix it up and reinforce the requirement that the dog stop and stand is to pop a trap that the dog has NOT smelled at all, and pop the checkcord to let the dog know that the flight of the bird must also be honored by standing still. It is called "stopping to flush".

Last thing... always remember to praise the dog for whatever it does right. We are usually right there with negative reinforcement, but I for one tend to forget to reward good behavior. A quiet "good dog" or a pat on the flank is HUGE for a dog.

RayG

Bdg848
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Re: Old dog, new trick: Training a rescue

Post by Bdg848 » Tue Apr 06, 2021 5:37 pm

"you might occasionally toss a second bird to really get the dog up on its toes." Would that second bird be from a bird bag on your person?
Last edited by Sharon on Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

birddogger2
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Re: Old dog, new trick: Training a rescue

Post by birddogger2 » Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:46 pm

I do generally carry a bird bag on me in the training field. I have been known to slip a pigeon out of the bag and let it go from behind my back, so the dog only sees it flying away.

The answer is YES, the typically bird gets tossed out of a bag... unless you have a loaded second launcher or loaded kick cage right close by the first launcher. Once the dog is standing pretty reliably, producing additional birds after the first has flown tends to test and challenge the willingness of the dog to stand and thus presents a higher level training scenario for the dog to conquer. The more you challenge and proof the dog, the more confident and steadier it will become.

RayG

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Re: Old dog, new trick: Training a rescue

Post by Steve007 » Wed Apr 07, 2021 6:34 pm

birddogger2 wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 12:32 pm
Before you bring the dog in, test the wind with unscented talc so you know EXACTLY how the wind is behaving.
This is an excellent idea, and I must say it is new to me, though I haven't needed it. When I was foxhunting (yep, riding to hounds, including a full season in South Africa), we used to put out smoke bombs so newer foxhunters could understand and see how scent traveled.

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gonehuntin'
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Re: Old dog, new trick: Training a rescue

Post by gonehuntin' » Fri Apr 09, 2021 7:29 pm

Not so sure I'd even mess with him at 9 if you have a nice youngster coming along. Every minute you spend with the rescue is detracting from time spent with the youngster.
LIFE WITHOUT BIRD DOGS AND FLY RODS REALLY ISN'T LIFE AT ALL.

Bdg848
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Re: Old dog, new trick: Training a rescue

Post by Bdg848 » Thu Apr 22, 2021 7:10 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 7:29 pm
Not so sure I'd even mess with him at 9 if you have a nice youngster coming along. Every minute you spend with the rescue is detracting from time spent with the youngster.
I don't think I can get on board with that. How does anyone with more than one dog manage to train them if one is detracting training time from the other? Even your dog you've had a few seasons may need a tune up at some point and you must spend time on him and not with other dogs. The two year old is coming along nicely. The rescue is our first dog, I'm going to give him the chance to do what he was born to do until he is too old to do it.

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Re: Old dog, new trick: Training a rescue

Post by DonF » Wed Apr 28, 2021 10:06 am

I don't think he's got the traps yet. Get them and they will open a new world to you. Operate then as if you were a wild bird in that trap. Dog come's in cross wind soon as it hit's the scent cone, pop the bird. Say nothing to your dog and just go on. You know your dog want's the bird, no problem there! Now teach him how to get it. Had a very similar dog owner stop by several years ago. Shooting preserve near him gave him the dog and said it had to much prey drive. We took it into my smaller starting field and in about 8 birds had the dog pointing. No e collar, no check cord no voice command and hands completely off. Never said one word to the dog. You must know exactly where the bird is and where wind is coming from! You'll probably find after three or four birds your dog will point before you can pop the bird. In that case don't pop the bird. Circle around the dog toward the bird and keep a close eye on the dog. Very important to keep and eye on the dog. Most dog's will move their eyes and head to see you coming around, pop the bird then and go on, No good boy no nothing, just finished there and on to the next one. keep always in mind you want that pigeon to act like a wild bird, very important! Exactly like using wild birds with a couple huge advantages. You know exactly where the bird is and the bird co-operates with you. Little trick to marking the bird. get some wood cloths pins and paint them blaze orange. Clip them onto brush near the bird. Another advantage to this is you won't turn the pigeon into a training bird your dog may blink down the road. For all the dog knows, it's just a bird! You turn the bird to a training bird it's your fault for not making the bird act like a wild one. It's all between the dog and the bird. YOU. Are a spectator and the bird! keep your place.
I pity the man that has never been loved by a dog!

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