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Carded quail.....same quick flutter but don't lose the bird
Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 8:57 pm
by Thirdy8special
I'm thinking of using carded quail to move on from pigeons. I'll use them using a release so bird will get some help in lift/flush.
Carded(cardboard attached w/string) quail will still give the quick flutter & tempting low flight but I can reuse the quail(hopefully if it doesn't have a heart attack 1st). I can work on steady to flush on low flying quail as dog is perfectly steady flush&shot with high flying pigeons. I could first use carded pigeons before moving to carded quail. Should be just as tempting. Dog does like to take off when bird flies low or is shot&falls.
Anybody ever used carded to save on quail cost/ make flush more tempting?
Re: Carded quail.....same quick flutter but don't lose the bird
Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:50 am
by cjhills
IMO this is about the most inhumane thing one could possibly do and if it is not illegal it should be.........Cj
Re: Carded quail.....same quick flutter but don't lose the bird
Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 7:45 am
by BigTub
I guess just letting the dog retrieve them alive and chew them up is more humane? WOW! If you want to train bird dogs, the birds are not going to fare well, unless you want to make a distinction between pigeons and quail.
My trainer uses the cards on pigeons and they seem pretty effective. He is death on using launchers. Of course, the pigeon cards are much bigger. However, he did not use cards on quail. They are not real hardy birds. He would rarely shoot the quail as they would return to his Johnny House. He was set up in a large training areas for about 3-4 months and then end with trials competition and consume the remaining birds. The pen raised quail down here rarely fly far and you could probably net or pick up the birds after a decent first flight -- of course, for that the dog has to be rock steady.
Re: Carded quail.....same quick flutter but don't lose the bird
Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 8:31 am
by shags
I'm with CJ on this, it's a bad and inhumane idea. Have you ever seen a carded bird stuck in a tree or on a powerline, left there to flutter and slowly die? At least a crunched or shot bird gets a fast death.
I wouldn't want to inhibit my training birds enough to make them an easier target for an unbroke dog. What's wrong with releasing birds and letting the check-corded dog find them? You want to tempt the dog, then let him stand there a while before you flush, then use the cc to restrain your dog at the flush. If you get a first flush that's too good, circle around your training area and let the dog re-find that bird. Chances are good that the second flush will be lousy enough for you to get the temptation to the dog that you want.
Re: Carded quail.....same quick flutter but don't lose the bird
Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:08 am
by slistoe
My experience with carded pigeons is that there are no positives to this approach.
Re: Carded quail.....same quick flutter but don't lose the bird
Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 10:38 am
by mask
I'm not sure carding a quail would work well because pen raised quail are usually weak flyers anyway. A quail in a launcher would likely serve the same purpose. As far as carded pigeons not being a proven positive approach to training or inhumane is horse manure. PETA would be proud of statements like these. If you want a pigeon to fly lower and flutter a little pull a few flight feathers.
Re: Carded quail.....same quick flutter but don't lose the bird
Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 10:59 am
by Thirdy8special
I'm not sure where the quail breeder gets these birds, but these really fly. Beside my field is narrow (7 acres) surrounded by cedars with with wide base limbs(not fun to chase birds out of).
Dog doesn't chew(alive birds come back alive). I'll have complete control of the dog. Just trying to reuse them. I figure I need to go thru 5 birds a week till October akc senior hunter test/ then master in spring. If I can reduce kill total a few each month...why not.
Dog really gets tease on low fliers & falling birds. Quail on perfect fit for low fliers. I need to teach dog leave it(nstra rules have to leave bird alonefor2or3 minutes...no delayed chase), steadying on quail. Dog treats a fetched bird very soft...but things can happen.
Thx for the replies!
Re: Carded quail.....same quick flutter but don't lose the bird
Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 11:10 am
by fishvik
I've used a carding method of a sorts on pigeons with very good results. Instead of a card I use a length of cut garden hose, usually12-18" in length depending how strong a flier the pigeon is. I do it in an area with no power lines or trees. I use a paracord harness on both legs that won't dig into them. I don't use a launcher but a kick cage. I use an e collar to stop the dog from chasing the bird. In open terrain I can usually 2-4 flushes before I have to pick up the bird usually no worse for the wear other than being tired out. This works well out here where alot of the vegetation is no higher than 2-3' tall.
Re: Carded quail.....same quick flutter but don't lose the bird
Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 11:40 am
by Sharon
The carding method is a traditional way of training, but not losing your birds. For reasons mentioned above it can be a bad idea. The real point , asked by the OP, is how do you train when you can't afford a hundred + birds ? Many folk don't live where there are an abundance of wild birds. I understand what he is saying, but if you are going to train a gundog you have to factor in the price of birds for training. Fortunately where I live, pigeons are $2.00 a bird.
Re: Carded quail.....same quick flutter but don't lose the bird
Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 12:45 pm
by birddogger2
If you want to re-use your birds, there are a couple things you can do. I sometimes re-use my pigeons or chuckar and years back would re-use quail on non-home grounds. At home I leave a callback pen and about half of them come back. I typically do not allow my dogs to retrieve during training sessions, as I trial them in American Field stakes, where no birds are shot. I want the dogs to stand tall, and not move, throughout the entire process.
Probably the best option for training on your own property would be a small johnny house with a dozen or so quail in it. You flush out 6-8 birds before you want to go train and after you are done, the birds will re-call to the house. Or you could put a bird or two in a launcher or cage if that is what you need to do. They will recall back to the johnny house.
I have used a pigeon harness on quail and it works. There is a fairly long string(10 ft.) attached to the harness... I like orange because it is easier to see.
The birds will fly thirty or forty yards and then come back down. I can go and retrieve them using the cord. i do not use leg restraints on quail or pheasants because when they hit the end of the cord, they often damage their legs. I have used both a pigeon harness with string attached and leg restraints on pigeons and chuckar. I have used them with the bird in a launcher or under a foot flip cage. I don't usually tie the string to the launcher or cage, but instead have it attached to a weight, like an old horseshoe. Those birds seem not to damage their legs when they hit the end of the cord.
I do like to use pigeons with leg restraints when training for steady to shot and fall. As the bird hits the end of the string(25 ft. or so) I fire the blank gun and the bird drops out of the sky, as if it had been shot...if I get the timing right. I have a couple of 50 ft. strings that I use just for this drill. If I was training for AKC retrieving stakes or hunt tests I could also use a shotgun, either with blanks or just deliberately miss.
RayG
Re: Carded quail.....same quick flutter but don't lose the bird
Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 12:55 pm
by birddogger2
birddogger2 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 25, 2021 12:45 pm
If you want to re-use your birds, there are a couple things you can do. I sometimes re-use my pigeons or chuckar and years back would re-use quail on non-home grounds. At home I leave a callback pen and about half of them come back. I typically do not allow my dogs to retrieve during training sessions, as I trial them in American Field stakes, where no birds are shot. I want the dogs to stand tall, and not move, throughout the entire process.
Probably the best option for training on your own property would be a small johnny house with a dozen or so quail in it. You flush out 6-8 birds before you want to go train and after you are done, the birds will re-call to the house. Or you could put a bird or two in a launcher or cage if that is what you need to do. They will recall back to the johnny house.
I have used a pigeon harness on quail and it works. There is a fairly long string(10 ft.) attached to the harness... I like orange because it is easier to see.
The birds will fly thirty or forty yards and then come back down. I can go and retrieve them using the cord. i do not use leg restraints on quail or pheasants because when they hit the end of the cord, they often damage their legs. I have used both a pigeon harness with string attached and leg restraints on pigeons and chuckar. I have used them with the bird in a launcher or under a foot flip cage. I don't usually tie the string to the launcher or cage, but instead have it attached to a weight, like an old horseshoe. Those birds seem not to damage their legs when they hit the end of the cord.
I do like to use pigeons with leg restraints when training for steady to shot and fall. As the bird hits the end of the string(25 ft. or so) I fire the blank gun and the bird drops out of the sky, as if it had been shot...if I get the timing right. I have a couple of 50 ft. strings that I use just for this drill. If I was training for AKC retrieving stakes or hunt tests I could also use a shotgun, either with blanks or just deliberately miss.
RayG
Almost forgot... I have tied a long strip of 1" plastic marking tape to a quail's leg and also occasionally used a twist tie to keep the birds legs together, so it can't run off too far after it flies. The long streamer of orange or hot pink ribbon really seems to get the dog up on their toes, when the bird flushes, and the bright color make it easy to find afterwards.
Re: Carded quail.....same quick flutter but don't lose the bird
Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 1:29 pm
by Thirdy8special
I like those ideas...think I'll use a streamer or cord or survey tape instead.
Fyi...I have a pigeon coop & pigeons that i use all the time. Just need the low weak flyers to get the dog steady. Strong flying pigeons, shes perfect.
Thx for your replies!
Re: Carded quail.....same quick flutter but don't lose the bird
Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 7:47 pm
by ckirsch
I use the surveyor's tape with chukar. A ten foot strip tied to one foot. When launched, they'll often fly up to a couple hundred yards before going back down, so there is usually not much chance of a young dog running them down and catching them. When I'm done training for the day, I'll put the pup up and let an older dog sweep the alfalfa field that I train in. He'll locate and point the released birds, I can walk in, find the orange tape, and reel in the bird. I've gotten several months of use out of some of my chukar that way. Chukar are far less fragile than quail - not sure what kind of mileage one could expect out of quail.
Re: Carded quail.....same quick flutter but don't lose the bird
Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:17 am
by Thirdy8special
I'll let you know tonight how the quail workout. Going to 1st start with dog on barrel just because that's how we started out using pigeons(on lift poles, eventually releasing to flight). Dog luvs the barrel too.
Thx!
Re: Carded quail.....same quick flutter but don't lose the bird
Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2021 2:01 pm
by Thirdy8special
Barrel
Re: Carded quail.....same quick flutter but don't lose the bird
Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2021 2:06 pm
by Thirdy8special
20210326_123415.jpg
Bird harnesses. It worked. She did break on a short flying pigeon but pigging string tightened around her waist which she didn't like. I didn't do it to her. I saved her from it
