Books or literature for spouses

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Chrapm1
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Books or literature for spouses

Post by Chrapm1 » Fri Mar 19, 2021 6:57 am

I'm looking for any books or literature that go through the top do's and don'ts when it comes to bringing up a hunting/bird dog but is written in a short read form targeted for spouses. As everyone on this forum probably knows, 99% of people who have owned dogs that they aren't training to hunt don't understand certain do's/don'ts when it comes to hunting dog puppies. They tend to think a lot of it is taking things too seriously or overthinking when some of the do's/don'ts are very important and studied methods written in books and are general rules of thumb throughout hunting dog communities.

My question is, do you know of any books/literature written for the audience of a spouse on bringing up a puppy bird dog? I'm hoping for something that doesn't go into vigorous detail like some training books but it goes through the major do's and don'ts and the why in a simple broad short read. Coming from someone else who is an expert is much easier to get across and a general understanding one the means behind the methods.

Chrapm1
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Re: Books or literature for spouses

Post by Chrapm1 » Fri Mar 19, 2021 8:52 am

I've actually come across two pretty good articles that state some of the cardinal rules explained in a good way for household members.

https://ottertailkennels.com/dont-ruin-hunting-dog/

https://www.sportdog.com/hunting-traini ... -dog-puppy


But any additional literature someone has come across would be great

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Tim Tufts
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Re: Books or literature for spouses

Post by Tim Tufts » Fri Mar 19, 2021 11:10 am

In terms of training a bird dog the best ever written is "Wing and Shot ' by Robert Wehle.
As far as the spousal issue the most important is don't teach sit. Use whoa instead. "Stand up and stand still."
Just my humble opinion.

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Re: Books or literature for spouses

Post by birddogger2 » Fri Mar 19, 2021 4:40 pm

I checked about a half dozen training books that I have and there was nothing specifically in any of them that addressed your spousal concerns.

I do suggest that you INSIST on this ONE training practice being observed by ANYONE and everyone who interacts with your dog. Give ONE command to the dog...JUST ONE. DO NOT repeat the command in a louder voice or use a different verbalization. ONE command...One time.

This is an absolutely cardinal rule of dog training...ANY kind of dog training.

If the dog does not obey the one first command, do one of two things...

Either ignore the dog and walk away or go and get your hands on the dog and MAKE it do what you asked it to do. If the person issuing the command is not willing to physically go out and get the dog and MAKE it do what it was asked to do, or at least put the dog away as a correction.

If the person cannot do either of those two things, they really have no business giving the dog commands because they are just going to make it harder on the dog in the long run.

I also agree that it is usually a mistake to teach a bird dog to sit, especially early on.

RayG

FWIW, one of the very best things i did was to involve my wife in the dog's training at an early age. I gave my wife a pocketful of puppy treats and sat her in a lawn chair. I set up a second lawn chair opposite hers. I put the puppy in the middle with two long check cords on the puppy. She got one check cord and I got the other. I called the pup to me and when it did not come instantly, I reeled it in, petted it up and gave it a treat. Then at a signal, my wife called the puppy. I stopped petting the pup and if the dog did not go instantly to my wife, she reeled it i, same as i did andthen petted it up and gave it a treat. Within 20 minutes, the pup was trying to race back and forth, to try and get the treats, even before the here or come command was given, so we each had to restrain the pup until the command was given by the other.

My wife began to understand the value of one command and enforced compliance and how easy it made things. Rome was not built in a day and she still tends to repeat commands, but after the dog blows her off a couple of times, she had learned to just stop and mess with one of the other dogs who happens to be listening better. When the recalcitrant individual realizes they are being ignored in favor of one of their kennel mates...that hurts worse than a correction, I think. Dogs...even independent minded pointers like mine ..don't like to be ignored, and they like missing out on a treat even less... so she uses that to her advantage. So do I.

RayG

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Re: Books or literature for spouses

Post by shags » Fri Mar 19, 2021 5:46 pm

IME none of it matters. And it sure wouldn't work at my house for one of us to lay down "dog rules' for the other one of us to follow. What is this, 1890 for husbands and the brave new world of feminism for wives?

Dogs figure out who means what when. So if one spouse has training standards that they stick to, the dogs will be good with that and they'll behave accordingly. I think the important thing is to make sure the basic living arrangements are agreed upon by both people - is the dog going to live in the house, be allowed on the furniture, etc. It's asking for trouble to not agree on big things like that. At our house, the dogs know I'll give them scraps off my dinner plate, so they beg from me. But they never beg from my spouse because he never gives them those treats. My dogs mind me on the first command, because they know it'll be enforced, but they'll ignore my spouse sometimes because he tends to give them slack. The dogs know our differences.

Think about how dogs behave perfectly for their trainer but take advantage of their softy owner. Same thing.

I think it's a kindness to everyone, dogs included, if one person is having trouble with a particular problem, for the other to help out by showing or explaining how to solve that problem. Like a dog jumping on that person...maybe they need help because they don't know how to stop it. But if jumping up doesn't bother them, and the dogs jump only on them, maybe better sometimes to not butt in.

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Re: Books or literature for spouses

Post by Chrapm1 » Fri Mar 19, 2021 6:28 pm

birddogger2 wrote:
Fri Mar 19, 2021 4:40 pm
I checked about a half dozen training books that I have and there was nothing specifically in any of them that addressed your spousal concerns.

I do suggest that you INSIST on this ONE training practice being observed by ANYONE and everyone who interacts with your dog. Give ONE command to the dog...JUST ONE. DO NOT repeat the command in a louder voice or use a different verbalization. ONE command...One time.

This is an absolutely cardinal rule of dog training...ANY kind of dog training.

If the dog does not obey the one first command, do one of two things...

Either ignore the dog and walk away or go and get your hands on the dog and MAKE it do what you asked it to do. If the person issuing the command is not willing to physically go out and get the dog and MAKE it do what it was asked to do, or at least put the dog away as a correction.

If the person cannot do either of those two things, they really have no business giving the dog commands because they are just going to make it harder on the dog in the long run.

I also agree that it is usually a mistake to teach a bird dog to sit, especially early on.

RayG

FWIW, one of the very best things i did was to involve my wife in the dog's training at an early age. I gave my wife a pocketful of puppy treats and sat her in a lawn chair. I set up a second lawn chair opposite hers. I put the puppy in the middle with two long check cords on the puppy. She got one check cord and I got the other. I called the pup to me and when it did not come instantly, I reeled it in, petted it up and gave it a treat. Then at a signal, my wife called the puppy. I stopped petting the pup and if the dog did not go instantly to my wife, she reeled it i, same as i did andthen petted it up and gave it a treat. Within 20 minutes, the pup was trying to race back and forth, to try and get the treats, even before the here or come command was given, so we each had to restrain the pup until the command was given by the other.

My wife began to understand the value of one command and enforced compliance and how easy it made things. Rome was not built in a day and she still tends to repeat commands, but after the dog blows her off a couple of times, she had learned to just stop and mess with one of the other dogs who happens to be listening better. When the recalcitrant individual realizes they are being ignored in favor of one of their kennel mates...that hurts worse than a correction, I think. Dogs...even independent minded pointers like mine ..don't like to be ignored, and they like missing out on a treat even less... so she uses that to her advantage. So do I.

RayG
Great bit of advice thanks a ton!!

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Re: Books or literature for spouses

Post by cjhills » Sun Mar 21, 2021 7:36 am

IMO there are no specific dos and don'ts in training a bird dog. It is nearly impossible to ruin a decently bred puppy.
I agree mostly with what Shags wrote. Everything pretty much works out and the dog figures out who is the leader of the pack.
the idea of giving the command only once is great. Almost nobody who is not a trainer will do that.
I also absolutely disagree with not training a pointing dog to sit on command. First you are not training the dog to sit, he knows how to do that. Second if this dog is a house dog you need some form of control, "sit" is the easiest way to do that without stressing the dog. Third When you train the dog to sit on command you can also train the dog not to sit on a command.
A dog that sits on point is always getting too much pressure. The whole thing about not training a dog to sit comes from trainers who put to much pressure on dogs to be steady. remember it is not what you perceive as pressure, it is what the dog perceives as pressure. Try not to humiliate the dog.
It is way easier than you think to train a bird dog. Reward good ignore bad and make sure you know the difference.
My bad will not be the same as yours ad vice versa. ......Cj

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Re: Books or literature for spouses

Post by Steve007 » Sun Mar 21, 2021 11:42 am

cjhills wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 7:36 am
I also absolutely disagree with not training a pointing dog to sit on command. First you are not training the dog to sit, he knows how to do that. Second if this dog is a house dog you need some form of control, "sit" is the easiest way to do that without stressing the dog. Third When you train the dog to sit on command you can also train the dog not to sit on a command.
This is of course totally correct, and people who believe otherwise were probably told this foolishness by people who heard this a hundred years ago from someone who never had a well-trained house dog and who thought it made sense. It didn't then, and it doesn't now.

Dogs are very "place"- oriented. A dog who responds to specific commands in the house or in obedience competition would not even think of executing that behavior in the field. My wirehair is a nationally-ranked competition obedience dog with a UD title -- the highest AKC training level-- and a significant number of qualifying scores. I would say he has a fair grasp of the command sit and quite a few others . He would never even think of sitting in the field when on point or honoring; it just wouldn't occur to him. On the other hand, it is nice when I want to rest to be able to tell him to lie down -- though my field command tends to be a casual "have a seat"-- and for him to rest quietly as well.

Communication in the field is enhanced by training at non-field activities. People who have kennel dogs don't understand this, but if you are going to have a house dog, some serious obedience work -- not just extremely basic field obedience --improves communication and the dog as a year-round pet and companion under all circumstances.

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Re: Books or literature for spouses

Post by birddogger2 » Sun Mar 21, 2021 2:40 pm

Steve007 wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 11:42 am
cjhills wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 7:36 am
I also absolutely disagree with not training a pointing dog to sit on command. First you are not training the dog to sit, he knows how to do that. Second if this dog is a house dog you need some form of control, "sit" is the easiest way to do that without stressing the dog. Third When you train the dog to sit on command you can also train the dog not to sit on a command.
This is of course totally correct, and people who believe otherwise were probably told this foolishness by people who heard this a hundred years ago from someone who never had a well-trained house dog and who thought it made sense. It didn't then, and it doesn't now.

Dogs are very "place"- oriented. A dog who responds to specific commands in the house or in obedience competition would not even think of executing that behavior in the field. My wirehair is a nationally-ranked competition obedience dog with a UD title -- the highest AKC training level-- and a significant number of qualifying scores. I would say he has a fair grasp of the command sit and quite a few others . He would never even think of sitting in the field when on point or honoring; it just wouldn't occur to him. On the other hand, it is nice when I want to rest to be able to tell him to lie down -- though my field command tends to be a casual "have a seat"-- and for him to rest quietly as well.

Communication in the field is enhanced by training at non-field activities. People who have kennel dogs don't understand this, but if you are going to have a house dog, some serious obedience work -- not just extremely basic field obedience --improves communication and the dog as a year-round pet and companion under all circumstances.
On the sit thing... I believe we will have to agree to disagree. If the dog has come to recognize the sit position as its "safe" place, it will choose to sit when it feels uneasy or uncertain or afraid to mess up. The key to the situation is what has been fixed into to the dog's mind. If the dog has come to believe that, when it sits, it is avoiding unpleasantness...it will respond to pressure by sitting.

I totally get the utility of teaching a sit command to flushing dogs. You WANT the dog to sit on command when you are out of position nd need to close the gap between yourself and the dog and you REALLY need a sit at the flush of the bird, so you don't accidentally kill the dog when you shoot at the flying bird. I also get the utility of teaching a sit command to a retriever . They need to sit quietly in a blind.

But a pointing dog does not need to sit. They need to stop and stand and grow roots.

If... after the dog has learned to stop and stand like a statue on its birds, tall and proud and absolutely confident... one wishes to teach a dog to sit, or beg or roll over or whatever parlor tricks they desire...I say...have at it... because the dog will not choose to sit out of fear or unease...but on command.

RayG

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Re: Books or literature for spouses

Post by slistoe » Sun Mar 21, 2021 3:07 pm

I have never taught one of my pointing dogs to sit. I have no need for the command. All of the Labs are taught sit from the git-go. My advice to puppy buyers has always been that if you have a need for the dog to sit, be it for house manners, control around strangers, comfort of the owner or whatever reason, then teach your pup to sit. I also always follow it with the caveat that if you teach your dog to sit be aware that it may present further training complications when teaching steady to wing and shot. This is not speculation on my part that it may present extra training problems - I have witnessed it in many dogs from many different owners. It does happen with some dogs. It can be rectified and trained through. Also, it is useful to understand that a good many people will never do any training for steadiness so offering a sit when under pressure to stay put is a non-issue for them. Also there are quite a number who have no issues with the dog sitting after the flush - they really don't care as long as the dog stays put. So it is also a non-issue for them.
So, if you want a dog that stands his/her birds bold and proud through to the release you may want to evaluate the actual usefulness of the sit command in your situation and whether it is worth the risk of added training pressures in breaking to wing and shot.

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Re: Books or literature for spouses

Post by cjhills » Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:53 am

I have trained many AKC Master dogs and countless guide dogs. Some were soft dogs, who did not like pressure. I do agree with "Slistoe" that most people don't care what the dog does after it finds points a bird. I only ran a field trial once so I don't have that experience. But we train very stylish dogs. Without exception every one was trained to sit calmly on command. In fact after "kennel" and "here" it was the next command they learned. It is the easiest way to keep a guide dog under control while talking with clients or whatever else needs to be done. Not once do I recall one of these dogs sitting on point. We don't untrain the 'whoa" by trying to make the dog stand still while we are dealing with other things.
Putting too much pressure on the dog or rushing the training for a steady dog is the problem. We start steady training in the yard with no birds. Our training does not cause fear and unease. I have seen trainers pick the dog up by the collar and tail to set him back. Don't do that. We don't use the "heck to pay" theory if the dog " dog moves a toenail". What ever that is.
I do realize everyone has their methods, Nobody is right or wrong. I don't expect anyone to agree or disagree. It is what works for you that counts.
Try your best to keep the dog happy while training. He will be very in tune with what goes on in your pack ad who is the Alpha. Once he buys into that you can train him to do anything. Training is way more about attitude than it is about punishment and bullying.......Cj

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Re: Books or literature for spouses

Post by slistoe » Mon Mar 22, 2021 7:42 am

Every time this topic comes up there are those who will say don't worry about it - we do it all the time. Yes, you can train a dog with an established sit through the steadiness training. I'm pretty sure I could train most every dog with an established sit through the steadiness training (I have not done it with any of my dogs but I have helped a number of people work through the problem with their dogs which would arguably be more difficult than training the first time). But the reality is that sitting under pressure is a real problem that exists with many people when trying to train their dogs and it is a problem that is easily avoided if the sit is not required.

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Re: Books or literature for spouses

Post by mask » Mon Mar 22, 2021 9:59 am

OK back to the first question. You might consider reading through your chosen training book with your spouse and or spouslings. It might be a good idea to attend a training seminar with a professional and have everyone involved with the pup on the same page. Everyone on the same page using the same commands and getting the expected response.

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Re: Books or literature for spouses

Post by Meskousing » Wed Mar 24, 2021 7:59 am

I'm not sure there's a book or article out there to teach what you want. It's a value and belief system. I go through this every day. EVERY. DAY. I've heard my other half explain e-collar usage to her friends (she went to a few training sessions with me) in good detail. Yet, she won't begin to put the collar on the dog, much less push the button. I've explained many of the above training maxims (issue the command once, make the dog obey, don't issue a command you won't enforce, and many others) yet, I hear baby talk and machine gun commands (sit, sit, sit, sit, sit.)

Dogs are easy to train. Family members- not so much.

I'm a 44-year old bachelor, except I moved in with a woman six months ago, so I'm not issuing any relationship advice.

Good luck.

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Re: Books or literature for spouses

Post by Sharon » Wed Mar 24, 2021 11:29 am

LOL Hilarious. You made my day. :) (My husband always forgets the command word, so the dog looks at him with a "What ???????" )
" We are more than our gender, skin color, class, sexuality or age; we are unlimited potential, and can not be defined by one label." quote A. Bartlett

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