English Setter Pup - Aggression or Not?

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SeaES
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English Setter Pup - Aggression or Not?

Post by SeaES » Thu Feb 04, 2021 1:33 am

Hey All - This post is going to be a long one, so forewarned is forearmed. I'm putting as much info as I can here to try and be as thorough as possible. I have been reading the forum for months and have learned so much, so thank you all for the great content. So here goes with my new puppy help request:

I brought home an English Setter on January 2nd. It was coincidentally my daughters birthday, but make no mistake it is MY hunting dog! Perhaps that says a little about my priorities? Or maybe more my propensity for self delusion. Either way I'm a first time dog trainer and have a lot to learn. I extensively researched breeds, temperaments, lines and pedigrees - all of that stuff. I really tried to make a good and smart decision about something that would be a family partner for 10+ years. I have a fenced yard and we're an active family with 2 kids I wanted a good active hunting dog that could hike with our family all year round, run the beach in the summer, hunt in the fall and chill with the kids in the house once we're home. I was torn between an english setter and a Brittany and went with a setter because out of pure luck I stumbled on a field trial judge who breeds from time to time and had a VERY compelling litter with great lines.

The pup is now exactly 3 months old to the day.

We're making lot's of progress. He is house broken. He is doing great with his woah training. He's walking on a loose leash. He knows "drop it" and "down". I am not training "sit" or "fetch" at the moment as I am hearing mixed messages about those. All in all, he is making GREAT progress. At least I think. I am a first time primary dog owner and trainer. Here lies the rub.

I am using the book "How to help Gun Dogs Train Themselves" by Joan Bailey as it seemed to fit our situation. I'm not a crazy 100+ day hunter, more like 15-20 days in the uplands per year. I am also not in need of a highly trained polished show dog - I hunt alone and don't know any other hunters. I got into the sport myself and am slowly recruiting friends, so anything that helps me find birds after years of dogless hunting will be awesome! The book however while covering lots of good Gun dog training topics doesn't cover the things I need help with now: house training.

The ES is playful and fun and energetic. He is also VERY mouthy.

Schedule:

He crates well 11PM-6:30AM nightly with potty breaks.

8AM breakfast

8:30-9AM Medium pace walk + full speed running in the yard

10-11:30 - nap in crate

11:30-2 Up and active - yard time with kids, walk during my lunch break, in the house and lunch.

2-3:30 - rest in the crate with peanut butter kong and toys

3:30 - 5 play time in yard, short walk, play with kids

5 onward - in the house with the family - he usually passes out for 30 mins here or there

7 - dinner

9 sleeping on pad while mom and dad finally relax. transition to crate when we go to bed

We're doing 2-3 15 minute training session throughout the day - trying to keep them short and positive for this breed

Here are my issues and possible causes:


I have a small chihuahua - at 1 or 2 points in the day the ES points the chihuahua, barks aggressively and instigates play that borders on aggressive. When my wife and I step in to break it up the barking and growling turns to real aggression and turns to us. The dog uses his mouth aggressively toward us and the kids if they're nearby. After having him home for 1 month and teaching my kids to stand tall, stay still and say "down" the whole family is covered in scratches and bite marks - especially the kids who are getting jumped on and mouthed. We are very consistent with "down" as a family and "no bite" to teach a gentle mouth. We're substituting toys for hands if we're petting him and he gets mouthy. We just don't feel like we're making much progress. I am very consistent and authoritative and have been for the month we've had him home.

Most importantly, in the evening around 6:30-7 for about an hour the pup turns full on aggressive towards the other dog in the house which ends up getting redirected towards us. Teeth showing, growling and mouthing. I don't want to say biting, but it is aggressive and as if he is in full on prey drive mode toward anything in his path. It is almost like clockwork every night. After 1 or 1.5 hours of this he conks out and falls asleep. It's all we can do to distract him from this destruction and keep our kids and other dog safe really. He does respond to commands like "come" and "this way" and "go to your place" during this time, but once he follows the command once pulled out of his frenzy he goes right back to it. I feel like it is his natural prey drive and that he is looking at our other dog as prey and redirecting towards anything that gets in between him and it. I do not want to kill this prey drive, but I also need to train it to be used less aggressively towards the household.

My theory was that he might be overtired, but even though I have increased his crate time a little he doesn't seem to sleep in there when he is in there. He just chills until he comes out. I thought he might need more downtime as there is ALOT of stimulation in the house with 2 kids, a nanny and 2 busy parents wandering around and him being up from 6:30AM-9PM (with naps).

My other theory is that he is not tired and has extra energy, but based on what I'm reading, he is getting more than enough activity. He's on 2-3 short walks a day, multiple yard sessions with the kids, 2-3 training sessions, finding bumpers with wings on them once a day.

Anyway - I am new to all of this and have dove in head first. I feel like we're making amazing progress for a 3 month old pup, but also that my limitations as a "trainer" are limiting the dogs ability to develop and behave properly.

I have an obedience trainer I am connecting with tomorrow and they are partnered up with a gun dog trainer as well that I plan to use at 6 months, they come highly recommended from my breeder and have a great practice with multiple Master hunter Setters having gone through the program.

I'd appreciate any and all help I can get based on this info on our nipping issue!

Thanks in advance and I look forward to learning a lot and hopefully being able to contribute for others in the future.

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Re: English Setter Pup - Aggression or Not?

Post by slistoe » Thu Feb 04, 2021 8:50 am

If a pup bites at me a third time then I have not corrected him/her properly the first two times. I don't recall a pup biting at me a fourth time. Your "no bite" has no meaning from the sounds of it.

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Re: English Setter Pup - Aggression or Not?

Post by SeaES » Thu Feb 04, 2021 8:56 am

This makes sense, I could use some guidance on getting our “no bite” to have meaning.. can you provide an example of an appropriate correction for these moments?

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Re: English Setter Pup - Aggression or Not?

Post by Cicada » Thu Feb 04, 2021 9:22 am

I wonder if it is related to his 7:00pm feeding? I have always fed my dogs before I eat not after. It seem to settle them down so we can have a peaceful dinner. A video would go a long way to assessing the issue.

Grant

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Re: English Setter Pup - Aggression or Not?

Post by Garrison » Thu Feb 04, 2021 9:32 am

Puppies are mouthy and you can usually re-direct that mouthyness to a chew toy. But this behavior or now pattern of aggression needs to stop yesterday. If the pup is showing this behavior multiple times the consequence for the behavior has not been adequate, it needs to be without hesitation, physical, and harsh enough to leave a lasting effect. What would an older establish dog do if the pup came at them like that? He would of been rolled and running for cover with a quick loud and dominant behavior. You need to bite back and be serious enough about it to assert your dominance.

It usually doesn’t take much with a setter, they are typically fairly soft. But as Slistoe suggests, three times is too many.

Also, seems like this might be a learned behavior from the other dog. Small dogs have a habit of turning to teeth rather quickly. What you describe sounds like a behavior that is common in small dogs if not put in check. They will be in the midst of play and rather quickly turn to aggression. Wouldn’t you if you weighed 1lb and had a bigger needle teeth pup on you? I would limit their play and would be socializing your pup with bigger more dominant dogs. They have a habit of teaching what is okay and what isn’t. If he doesn’t learn acceptable play when he is a pup, you will be at the vet getting stitches later.

Side question, how many weeks old was the pup when it was taken home?

Garrison
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Re: English Setter Pup - Aggression or Not?

Post by shags » Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:09 am

Congrats on the new puppy, and sorry that you're having problems. It sounds like you are clear in what you want, and that's a great first step.

Sounds like "no bite" doesn't have any teeth. I've never once ever rewarded a puppy with a toy for biting anyone ever. That's what you're doing.


Some dogs respond well to the kinder gentler kind of mouth training. Some require bringing down the hammer.

When the pup goes after the chi, get over there and grab him by the scruff and pin him down with it, and let him know in no uncertain terms to knock it off. Hold him until he quits. Some pups will quit right away, some will struggle a bit. This is for an adult to do, not a child. You need to convey who is the boss, and it ain't him. Once or twice with this should do the trick and be enough that if he relapses you can correct him with a verbal warning.

When he play bites/mouths when he's being petted or whatever, grab his muzzle and fold his upper lips against his teeth and hold it there and tell him NO! This has to be a quick action, so I'd set the pup up to do this to an adult, not the children. Once he gets the message, the kids can be taught to stop it with a NO!

Our number one rule is
NO DOG TEETH ON HUMAN SKIN EVER. NEVER! FOR WHATEVER REASON. NOPE. To establish the rule firmly, we go out of our way to give the pup every opportunity to use his teeth and correct it immediately. So we put hands in his bowl while he's eating, restrain him by holding him at random times, take a toy away because it's ours, not his, etc. This isn't something that goes on often and not done as a tease, it's only to relay the message that no matter what, he must keep his teeth to himself.
When our kids were little, they were not permitted to do any of this; after the pups were proofed by us, the kids were able to do these things. Little kids in general don't have an air of authority about them, and their high squeally voices aren't impressive to the pup.

When you make these corrections, do it and be done, don't be angry and hold a grudge. Pups don't understand why you're acting POed minutes after the occurrence. Think like the puppy's mother - snarl and snap, and then life goes on as usual.

By getting serious about your corrections, you won't be interfering with his prey drive, so don't worry about that.

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Re: English Setter Pup - Aggression or Not?

Post by fishvik » Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:46 am

I see a couple of things here. First this pup has only been away from it's litter mates for only a month and the Chihuahua is a surrogate. Puppies tend to vie for dominance and unless your older small dog puts it in it's place the puppy will continue. Second the pup is trying set a place in the family pack. You need to let it know who is the alpha male in the pack. If it gets aggressive put it on the floor, pin it on it's back with your middle and index finger on either side of it's neck and your ring finger and thumb back of it's shoulders. Don't choke it but put just enough pressure on it chest with the heal of your hand. The pup will probably fight, whine, growl and cry (I growl back) but don't let go until it relents and relaxes. In this position it is almost impossible for the pup to bite. And while they are small they are easy to handle. Third, puppy is probably hungry already so feed him. All of my dogs start getting rowdy at dinner time, after eating they calm down. I have a GWP female that was very aggressive at that age and the system worked. In addition if it is any consolation, she also learned quicker than any of my other dogs. At 6 mos she was pointing and retrieving wild birds. Good Luck

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Re: English Setter Pup - Aggression or Not?

Post by Sharon » Thu Feb 04, 2021 1:32 pm

SeaES wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 8:56 am
This makes sense, I could use some guidance on getting our “no bite” to have meaning.. can you provide an example of an appropriate correction for these moments?
There's a time for a painful rebuke. If that pup was with its Mother she wouldn't put up with one bite on her or her "kids". Get tough. Grab pups's mouth and squeeze hard enough for a yelp. Timing has to be perfect. I've raised many a rescued Jack Russell . You can't be all sweetness and smiles. :)

PS See what Slistoe said:

by slistoe » Thu Feb 04, 2021 9:50 am

"If a pup bites at me a third time then I have not corrected him/her properly the first two times. I don't recall a pup biting at me a fourth time. Your "no bite" has no meaning from the sounds of it." quote
" We are more than our gender, skin color, class, sexuality or age; we are unlimited potential, and can not be defined by one label." quote A. Bartlett

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Re: English Setter Pup - Aggression or Not?

Post by SeaES » Fri Feb 05, 2021 12:29 am

I wanted to post a reply here to all of you who took the time to write responses today. Sorry for the delay. You all really helped put a finer point on the matter and gave some great things to think about. It is clear that I needed to take a more definitive approach nip this in the bud you all were right.

This morning the pup got nippy and jumped up and grabbed my sons arm as he was walking to the kitchen. I immediately caught it and provided a correction much more in line with the feedback you all have provided. The rest of the day not a tooth touched skin. There were a few moments where you could tell he was thinking about using his teeth but ultimately decided against it.

I have a feeling we have plenty more work to do here, but this is a great start. Thanks again for all of your advice. I did move up his dinner time as mentioned in a post. I also will be working more proactively to separate him from the older dog. I agree it is likely a learned behavior from the small dog. With Covid and all socialization has been a little more limited than ideal. Despite that fact I am meeting up with a friend with an older larger dog tomorrow to begin the process of getting him acquainted with other larger dogs.

I still have plenty of work ahead, but after the last 2 weeks, today felt like a break through. Thanks you all and I look forward to being on here more.

FWIW - that last hour or two before bed he still did hit that "rat dog" mode, running around, barking and wildly shaking toys and barking at the other dog. Not biting though which is good, but pretty crazy. I'm chalking it up to extra puppy end of day energy unless someone has better ideas!

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Re: English Setter Pup - Aggression or Not?

Post by SeaES » Fri Feb 05, 2021 12:34 am

Garrison wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 9:32 am
Puppies are mouthy and you can usually re-direct that mouthyness to a chew toy. But this behavior or now pattern of aggression needs to stop yesterday. If the pup is showing this behavior multiple times the consequence for the behavior has not been adequate, it needs to be without hesitation, physical, and harsh enough to leave a lasting effect. What would an older establish dog do if the pup came at them like that? He would of been rolled and running for cover with a quick loud and dominant behavior. You need to bite back and be serious enough about it to assert your dominance.

It usually doesn’t take much with a setter, they are typically fairly soft. But as Slistoe suggests, three times is too many.

Also, seems like this might be a learned behavior from the other dog. Small dogs have a habit of turning to teeth rather quickly. What you describe sounds like a behavior that is common in small dogs if not put in check. They will be in the midst of play and rather quickly turn to aggression. Wouldn’t you if you weighed 1lb and had a bigger needle teeth pup on you? I would limit their play and would be socializing your pup with bigger more dominant dogs. They have a habit of teaching what is okay and what isn’t. If he doesn’t learn acceptable play when he is a pup, you will be at the vet getting stitches later.

Side question, how many weeks old was the pup when it was taken home?

Garrison
To answer your question I brought him home at 8 weeks and he is now 12. The biting and aggressive posturing issue has only crept up in the previous week and a half or so. Your post also bring up the good point that this is likely learned behavior from the smaller dog. When the pup first came home, despite our extended efforts at socialization - the small old dog did get a tooth in here or there on the ear in the first few weeks. I am taking extra care to separate them for now and socialize my pup with larger dogs of friends starting tomorrow. I provided more info in another post below about the small success of the day deterring the behavior with a more appropriate correction.

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Re: English Setter Pup - Aggression or Not?

Post by SeaES » Fri Feb 05, 2021 12:42 am

shags wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:09 am
Congrats on the new puppy, and sorry that you're having problems. It sounds like you are clear in what you want, and that's a great first step.

Sounds like "no bite" doesn't have any teeth. I've never once ever rewarded a puppy with a toy for biting anyone ever. That's what you're doing.


Some dogs respond well to the kinder gentler kind of mouth training. Some require bringing down the hammer.

When the pup goes after the chi, get over there and grab him by the scruff and pin him down with it, and let him know in no uncertain terms to knock it off. Hold him until he quits. Some pups will quit right away, some will struggle a bit. This is for an adult to do, not a child. You need to convey who is the boss, and it ain't him. Once or twice with this should do the trick and be enough that if he relapses you can correct him with a verbal warning.

When he play bites/mouths when he's being petted or whatever, grab his muzzle and fold his upper lips against his teeth and hold it there and tell him NO! This has to be a quick action, so I'd set the pup up to do this to an adult, not the children. Once he gets the message, the kids can be taught to stop it with a NO!

Our number one rule is
NO DOG TEETH ON HUMAN SKIN EVER. NEVER! FOR WHATEVER REASON. NOPE. To establish the rule firmly, we go out of our way to give the pup every opportunity to use his teeth and correct it immediately. So we put hands in his bowl while he's eating, restrain him by holding him at random times, take a toy away because it's ours, not his, etc. This isn't something that goes on often and not done as a tease, it's only to relay the message that no matter what, he must keep his teeth to himself.
When our kids were little, they were not permitted to do any of this; after the pups were proofed by us, the kids were able to do these things. Little kids in general don't have an air of authority about them, and their high squeally voices aren't impressive to the pup.

When you make these corrections, do it and be done, don't be angry and hold a grudge. Pups don't understand why you're acting POed minutes after the occurrence. Think like the puppy's mother - snarl and snap, and then life goes on as usual.

By getting serious about your corrections, you won't be interfering with his prey drive, so don't worry about that.
You really helped put a fine point on it. More detail in my post below, but following some of this advice have gotten a generally positive result today. Will keep it up and continue to work on him. This info was very helpful. He's a good dog and appears to just need a more authoritative approach. It's all relative I guess. I think he responded to this method. All the other feedback I got from dog owners I know focused on redirects, shaker cans and spray bottles - followed by "it stops after a year or two". Muy dog is going to need a more direct approach, kind of like the feedback you all gave me! I think my style, this dog and yall's advice is a good fit and I will taking advice from others with house dogs with a bit more grains of salt.

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Re: English Setter Pup - Aggression or Not?

Post by SeaES » Fri Feb 05, 2021 12:44 am

fishvik wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:46 am
I see a couple of things here. First this pup has only been away from it's litter mates for only a month and the Chihuahua is a surrogate. Puppies tend to vie for dominance and unless your older small dog puts it in it's place the puppy will continue. Second the pup is trying set a place in the family pack. You need to let it know who is the alpha male in the pack. If it gets aggressive put it on the floor, pin it on it's back with your middle and index finger on either side of it's neck and your ring finger and thumb back of it's shoulders. Don't choke it but put just enough pressure on it chest with the heal of your hand. The pup will probably fight, whine, growl and cry (I growl back) but don't let go until it relents and relaxes. In this position it is almost impossible for the pup to bite. And while they are small they are easy to handle. Third, puppy is probably hungry already so feed him. All of my dogs start getting rowdy at dinner time, after eating they calm down. I have a GWP female that was very aggressive at that age and the system worked. In addition if it is any consolation, she also learned quicker than any of my other dogs. At 6 mos she was pointing and retrieving wild birds. Good Luck
Thanks for the thoughts and I put more info on today's successes in another post. To your point about your GWP, I have an inkling this might be similar - he is an absolute unit in the yard during our training sessions. You can already see that once in the field he is going to have some chops. Fingers crossed!

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Re: English Setter Pup - Aggression or Not?

Post by Sharon » Fri Feb 05, 2021 12:43 pm

SeaES wrote:
Fri Feb 05, 2021 12:29 am
I wanted to post a reply here to all of you who took the time to write responses today. Sorry for the delay. You all really helped put a finer point on the matter and gave some great things to think about. It is clear that I needed to take a more definitive approach nip this in the bud you all were right.

This morning the pup got nippy and jumped up and grabbed my sons arm as he was walking to the kitchen. I immediately caught it and provided a correction much more in line with the feedback you all have provided. The rest of the day not a tooth touched skin. There were a few moments where you could tell he was thinking about using his teeth but ultimately decided against it.

I have a feeling we have plenty more work to do here, but this is a great start. Thanks again for all of your advice. I did move up his dinner time as mentioned in a post. I also will be working more proactively to separate him from the older dog. I agree it is likely a learned behavior from the small dog. With Covid and all socialization has been a little more limited than ideal. Despite that fact I am meeting up with a friend with an older larger dog tomorrow to begin the process of getting him acquainted with other larger dogs.

I still have plenty of work ahead, but after the last 2 weeks, today felt like a break through. Thanks you all and I look forward to being on here more.

FWIW - that last hour or two before bed he still did hit that "rat dog" mode, running around, barking and wildly shaking toys and barking at the other dog. Not biting though which is good, but pretty crazy. I'm chalking it up to extra puppy end of day energy unless someone has better ideas!
Really enjoyed your post. See what I underlined. They definitely make you smile don't they.? :)
" We are more than our gender, skin color, class, sexuality or age; we are unlimited potential, and can not be defined by one label." quote A. Bartlett

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Re: English Setter Pup - Aggression or Not?

Post by SeaES » Sat Feb 06, 2021 1:40 am

Glad you did. They really do! He’s a Total hoot and now that nobody is scratched up it’s all the better!

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Re: English Setter Pup - Aggression or Not?

Post by gonehuntin' » Sat Feb 06, 2021 6:44 am

You've gotten some very good advice here. My number one puppy rule is, NO BITING! Like others, I start by pinching the nose, the jowls to the teeth and the simple word NO! NO! is one of the most important commands a puppy will learn. If he snaps back at me, I say NO! and immediately bite him on the nose. That's what they understand, because that's what the mother would do. Every day that puppy ages make stopping aggression one day harder. Good Luck with the pup.
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Re: English Setter Pup - Aggression or Not?

Post by straightup1 » Sun Feb 14, 2021 7:57 am

You can and will get all kinds of advice/direction for the community on how to address the condition. Separating out down right aggression vs. rough puppy play where the pup is establishing his rank in the family/pac can sometimes be confusing to diagnose early on and staying the course with correction/praise/obedience as other have suggested and you've been diligent about in the short term make sense. However, if you're well past that he's "figuring" things out phase and should be adjusted, and you still see that behavior continuing without significant progress towards it no longer occurring or having to constantly worry/warn/command compliance, you'll have a decision to make. If he were a truly a gifted dog afield and on a guide/field trial string tolerance is far different than your situation.

If you have to move on from this dog, please don't stop hunting and/or getting into sporting dogs. It's an awesome sporting activity and sharing it with your favorite hunting partners creates wonderful memories. Just know there are lots of really good Setters and other sporting breeds(e.g. english pointers :wink: ) in the field and at home. It has less to do with the breed and more to do with the breeding in all likelihood. My hope is that everything works out.

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Re: English Setter Pup - Aggression or Not?

Post by Garrison » Sun Feb 14, 2021 4:24 pm

straightup1 wrote:
Sun Feb 14, 2021 7:57 am
You can and will get all kinds of advice/direction for the community on how to address the condition. Separating out down right aggression vs. rough puppy play where the pup is establishing his rank in the family/pac can sometimes be confusing to diagnose early on and staying the course with correction/praise/obedience as other have suggested and you've been diligent about in the short term make sense. However, if you're well past that he's "figuring" things out phase and should be adjusted, and you still see that behavior continuing without significant progress towards it no longer occurring or having to constantly worry/warn/command compliance, you'll have a decision to make. If he were a truly a gifted dog afield and on a guide/field trial string tolerance is far different than your situation.

If you have to move on from this dog, please don't stop hunting and/or getting into sporting dogs. It's an awesome sporting activity and sharing it with your favorite hunting partners creates wonderful memories. Just know there are lots of really good Setters and other sporting breeds(e.g. english pointers :wink: ) in the field and at home. It has less to do with the breed and more to do with the breeding in all likelihood. My hope is that everything works out.

We are talking about a 3 month old pup who is playing too rough and getting too aggressive when riled up. Many pups will, when allowed to. Some very good advice was given to correct the undesired behavior. It sounds like it was received and acted upon with good results.

Any discussion of moving on from a 3 month old pup, for being allowed to act in an undesirable way does seem to be a bit premature. No?

Garrison
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Re: English Setter Pup - Aggression or Not?

Post by cjhills » Mon Feb 15, 2021 7:16 am

Garrison wrote:
Sun Feb 14, 2021 4:24 pm
straightup1 wrote:
Sun Feb 14, 2021 7:57 am
You can and will get all kinds of advice/direction for the community on how to address the condition. Separating out down right aggression vs. rough puppy play where the pup is establishing his rank in the family/pac can sometimes be confusing to diagnose early on and staying the course with correction/praise/obedience as other have suggested and you've been diligent about in the short term make sense. However, if you're well past that he's "figuring" things out phase and should be adjusted, and you still see that behavior continuing without significant progress towards it no longer occurring or having to constantly worry/warn/command compliance, you'll have a decision to make. If he were a truly a gifted dog afield and on a guide/field trial string tolerance is far different than your situation.

If you have to move on from this dog, please don't stop hunting and/or getting into sporting dogs. It's an awesome sporting activity and sharing it with your favorite hunting partners creates wonderful memories. Just know there are lots of really good Setters and other sporting breeds(e.g. english pointers :wink: ) in the field and at home. It has less to do with the breed and more to do with the breeding in all likelihood. My hope is that everything works out.

We are talking about a 3 month old pup who is playing too rough and getting too aggressive when riled up. Many pups will, when allowed to. Some very good advice was given to correct the undesired behavior. It sounds like it was received and acted upon with good results.

Any discussion of moving on from a 3 month old pup, for being allowed to act in an undesirable way does seem to be a bit premature. No?

Garrison
SeaES
The post by "straight up" is absolutely correct, there are aggressive dogs that no amount of training and correction will cure in fact some will get worse from it. A really tough pro can handle most but a amateur with a family to worry about will have a hard time.
The most important part is being aware that you may be in a bad situation and watch for signs.
The meanest dog in the world is highly unlikely to attack it's caregiver. Unprovoked aggression should not be overlooked.
Really aggressive dogs are rare, but they do exist. It is pretty easy to identify the truly aggressive dogs. The harder part is admitting it.
Puppies fighting for their place in the pack will generally give up quite easily.
I am not saying that this is the case with your puppy but consider it. Get help if needed.
Any decent breeder should help the new owner with this problem. I have took back 3 puppies with a full refund from owners who could not handle them. All turn out fine and went to happy homes.
Again be aware and talk your the breeder. You seem to be in contact with him and he should want the situation resolved. It is in his best interest that it turns out well.
The life of a dog can be along time to worry about him attacking somebody. If he does it will be a life changing experience, for you, the dog and the victim.
OVER AGGRESSION IS NOT NORMAL PUPPY BEHAVIOR. If you were not concerned you would not be asking questions, Get help.
The time for discussion of aggression is when the pup is three months old. Yes!...............Cj
PS. After rereading the original post i need to add a comment.
Prey drive and aggression are totally different things and stopping aggression will not hurt his prey drive. I do think I would end his day a bit earlier and maybe separate him and the little dog in the evening. I like my dogs to learn to fit my schedule.

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Sharon
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Re: English Setter Pup - Aggression or Not?

Post by Sharon » Mon Feb 15, 2021 3:53 pm

Excellent post , but I personally would never make a decision to return a pup at 12 weeks , because I see behaviours I don't like. I'd want to give it some time - how long?- before I made that kind of decision.
" We are more than our gender, skin color, class, sexuality or age; we are unlimited potential, and can not be defined by one label." quote A. Bartlett

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Re: English Setter Pup - Aggression or Not?

Post by cjhills » Mon Feb 15, 2021 6:32 pm

Sharon:
You may have misunderstood my post. I did not say get rid of the pup. I just think the owner needs to be aware that there may be aggression issues that he can not deal with. A simple conversation with the breeder might save him a lot of grief.
Your decision about getting rid of a 3 month old puppy might be different if you had small kids that were being chewed up and intimidated by the puppy.
The kids may never want a dog again and may always be afraid of them. Small kids are not well equipped to deal with and aggressive puppy.
I know you rescue Jack Russels. So you have to be tough.........Cj

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Sharon
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Re: English Setter Pup - Aggression or Not?

Post by Sharon » Mon Feb 15, 2021 7:07 pm

Good points. Yes, rescuing JRTs definitely colors your opinion of what is normal.:)
" We are more than our gender, skin color, class, sexuality or age; we are unlimited potential, and can not be defined by one label." quote A. Bartlett

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Re: English Setter Pup - Aggression or Not?

Post by cjhills » Tue Feb 16, 2021 5:26 am

Sharon wrote:
Mon Feb 15, 2021 7:07 pm
Good points. Yes, rescuing JRTs definitely colors your opinion of what is normal.:)
Great post!!!!!! Warm up coming.
I hope things are good.
Got second Covid Vaccine yesterday. Hope they work........Cj

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Re: English Setter Pup - Aggression or Not?

Post by weimdogman » Tue Feb 16, 2021 9:32 am

Yeah I bet Sharon has never had to rescue a JRT because they were too calm😉
My 1 weim is a real Dennis the menace type. Runs around the house and tries to tear up everything. A throw and or pillow off the couch,paper from coffee table,and on and on. He does know leave it but is always testing me.

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Re: English Setter Pup - Aggression or Not?

Post by ddoyle » Wed Feb 17, 2021 7:20 pm

The only thing I would add to all the good advice here is to train your family too. Pups do not understand empathy. It was fashionable to yip when bitten for a while but as discussed that is not what Momma would do. No soothing the dog or trying to get it "to understand" it shouldn't bite....it just doesn't bite. Have fun!
Doyle

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Re: English Setter Pup - Aggression or Not?

Post by marysburg » Wed Feb 17, 2021 9:49 pm

It sounds like you are making progress with your young pup. Here are a couple of thoughts to add to the excellent ideas already offered by others. A TIRED PUPPY IS A GOOD PUPPY. Wear that little sucker out by getting him outdoors to run and chase toys, bumpers etc. As well, MOST PUPS HAVE A PERIOD OF FRANTIC ENERGY LATE IN THE DAY. Typically they run around like demons possessed, then collapse in a heap. Let him run it off outdoors or focus his attention onto a rolling toy. If he has something in his mouth, he can't use his teeth on you. I think winter pups are definitely a challenge, but you'll be shooting his first birds over him this fall.

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