Steadying a Dog On Wild Birds

averageguy
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Re: Steadying a Dog On Wild Birds

Post by averageguy » Fri Oct 23, 2020 5:52 pm

Ratdog, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

Perfection Kennel has trained just few thousand dogs using a launcher based program. Mo Lindley's program makes heavy uses of them too. As do thousands of other trainers.

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Re: Steadying a Dog On Wild Birds

Post by cjhills » Sat Oct 24, 2020 5:57 am

Ratdog:
Thanks for sharing your training adventures. it has made for some interesting dialogue.
Keep doing what you are doing. Good like with your dog.
I look forward to future posts on how things are going. Thanks Cj

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Re: Steadying a Dog On Wild Birds

Post by shags » Sat Oct 24, 2020 8:59 am

cjhills wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 4:14 pm
Ratdog
We do not know what happens at the trainers. I had a fairly big name trainer launch a bird from a snow covered launcher that hit my dog. That dog is now a 12 year old AKC Master dog, she is a super dog. BUt, she has never went within 100 yards of a launcher again and certainly will not point one. Not saying your dog will do that or had that happen to him, but be aware it could. It is the more intelligent dogs that have issues........Cj
Almost the same experience here. My dog wasn't hurt by a launcher but he's smart enough to know a training set up when he smells one. We can launch downwind for stop to flush drills, but all bets are off with using them for anything else. All it took was one misguided incident.

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Re: Steadying a Dog On Wild Birds

Post by averageguy » Sat Oct 24, 2020 4:48 pm

Shags, You raise two separate subjects.

Just about all dogs will smell a training bird setup for a variety of reasons depending on how much effort the trainer goes to avoid it.

Not all bad if they do anyway as long as the dog does what is desired in that phase of training.

Some key reasons I have experienced for dogs smelling a setup are:

Leaving foot scent when planting birds from the downwind side the dog is brought in from. 4 wheeler tracks are venerable to the same.

Working the dog in the same field constantly vs rotating training areas.

Tipping off the dog to the presence of a bird via the Trainer's body language and cadence of walking e.g. slowing down when getting near the bird vs keeping the same pace and walking past the scent cone with no change in cadence.

Never running the dog periodically in the training field with no birds present to keep them searching big and honest.

Between clinics, training days and videos I have seen hundreds of dogs worked on birds in launcher and never one shy of them. Which is not to say it never happens but rather to put the risk into its proper perspective which is very low assuming common sense is used when introducing and using the tool.

I have had numerous pro trainers express their opinion and experience that the GWPs I work with is a breed which ranks extremely high for intelligence and yet none of mine have been the least bit afraid of a launcher.

I do not believe intelligence has a thing to do with those very few instances where a dog has been mishandled enough to make them fearful of a launcher. Rather the dog lacks the sound nerves to rebound from a negative experience.

I had a 3 month GWP pup running full tilt after a launched pigeon when he hit the bottom wire of our high tensile horse pasture fence with his open mouth. It flipped him violently over backwards. I was aghast to see it.

The pup rolled to his feet and immediately resumed his full pursuit of the flying pigeon as hard as he could go.

Some dogs can roll with the punches better than others. Which is why it is always best to avoid a potential problem in the first place and that is where my launcher introduction advise comes in. I also test my launchers each time I use them to make sure they are in proper working order.
Last edited by averageguy on Sat Oct 24, 2020 7:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Steadying a Dog On Wild Birds

Post by shags » Sat Oct 24, 2020 5:44 pm

Averageguy ( who always posts way above average advice :D )

I think the point is that stuff just happens sometimes, and for whatever reason the dog can be negatively affected. Poor timing, not reading the dog correctly, an ill-timed correction, malfunctions, all sorts of thing can happen. As with ecollars, launchers can be great tools but they can also be misused, and some folks are better at using them than others.

As far as dog intelligence, I think dogs can possess different kinds. Some dogs' genius lies in their bird-ability...they just seem to know what to do, and they do it right. All they need in the way of correction, as a trainer friend once said, is a "Don't do that no more". Other dogs don't have as much talent of that sort, but excel at thinking of ways to thwart us in training. I've had excellent field dogs that couldn't figure out how to exit a half-opened crate, and not so great field dogs that were so smart in other ways that I thanked heaven they didn't have opposing
thumbs as well.

That sounds like one tough pup to hit the cable that way and keep on going. I hope he was OK :D

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Re: Steadying a Dog On Wild Birds

Post by RyanDoolittle » Sat Oct 24, 2020 6:30 pm

You guys need to start shooting more birds in launchers. Suddenly they start being interested again.

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Re: Steadying a Dog On Wild Birds

Post by IDHunter » Mon Dec 28, 2020 3:40 pm

Going to revive this post a bit as there is some good info in it, but I have been seeing a change in my pup that warrants a further question here.

I'm not really worried about steadiness at this point, I need help at a step even before the steadiness... because my 11 month old GWP seems to have made a regression to where he is not pointing frequently any more. I'm honestly not sure how this happened, although for full transparency there have been a few unfortunate incidents in the field that likely contributed to it. Both such incidents involve him catching a bird that someone else had wounded and not recovered. He was out in front of me hunting, and before I could understand what was happening and try to stop it, he had located and caught a bird. That's really the only thing I can think of that would have caused this setback.

Further detail: He has never been (to this point) a "point crazy" dog. He has pointed birds before, rather staunchly actually, but he has never been the dog that points early or false points old scent. He has pointed a TON of field mice nests and things like that as well, as unfortunately one of our prime training grounds is inundated with them. He has immense prey drive so I don't think that's a problem, and he loves chasing birds after they flush. I've pretty much let that go so far, as everything I've read indicates that they should learn they can't catch birds and then won't chase any more. But he doesn't seem to have learned that yet, at least not to the point of completely stopping his chasing... and we are talking about dozens and dozens of birds that he has been allowed to chase. He seems to have a good nose, because he's consistently finding birds, but instead of pointing them he works right into them and flushes them up without so much as stopping to point even briefly. I don't think he's missing or blinking birds, as it's extremely rare for him to work through an area without finding a bird and then to have one flush up as I walk through.

I've had some people tell me to keep him on wild birds, specifically chukar and huns, and just work on stopping his chase. However, that would involve e-collar, and although he is collar conditioned I'm also worried about making him a blinker if I start zapping him too much around birds. I've considered taking a step back and working him on launchers, using pigeons, pheasants, and chukar. Another option I'm considering if hunting him on a 30-50 ft check cord so I can try to control him a bit when we get into birds. I doubt that's the answer, but it's crossed my mind. Also considering just letting him continue doing this and see if one day it clicks for him through continuous exposure, but I gotta be honest my frustration is starting to set in while we're in the field. Driving 60-90 minutes each way, and walking my butt off through chukar country just to watch him flush covey after covey and not seem to be learning anything is getting old fast. I feel like an 11 month old dog that has been in the field consistently since day 1 and has been on birds a ton should not be having issues of not even pointing.

Any input would be appreciated, especially if you've dealt with this yourself and have seen a positive way to fix it. Again, my only goal at this point is to get him pointing consistently.

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Re: Steadying a Dog On Wild Birds

Post by lahunter562 » Mon Dec 28, 2020 5:42 pm

You have a great dog chasing birds at that age. I have seen other dogs that are not as near in prey drive what you have on that young dog. You have to understand that your dog is pretty young and sooner than later those chukar are going to teach your dog to be more careful when " the light comes on on his/her head." Usually when dogs turn about two years in age and mature enough. Other than that you are going to pull your hair until you go bald and start losing your patience. Let your dog get as much experience during this hunting season and work on whoa breaking your dog in the offseason with pigeons. I went through the same with my female GSP who has prey drive of the roof. Patience, patience, and more patience.

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Re: Steadying a Dog On Wild Birds

Post by RyanDoolittle » Mon Dec 28, 2020 5:49 pm

I think a financial investment in yourself would do you a ton of good at this point. Find a method that you like and use it. I would recommend Hunsmith or Perfection Series. Then buy their training DVDs and books, watch/read them, then do it again, then do it again, and then for good measures to it again. Enroll yourself into as many of the training seminars you can afford and attend.

In the mean time take a step away from training and worrying about what your dog is or isnt doing. Get it into an area people do not hunt that holds birds and run the dog. Keep your mouth shut other than to keep the dog at 10 and 2. Shoot birds the dog points. Otherwise enjoy your time in the hills. Worry about training once hunting season is over. You cant train a dog and hunt at the same time. You dont have the timing, consistency, and concentration needed to do both. So you end up with a half trained dog and a hunting trip you dont enjoy. Either stop hunting and train or hunt and stop training.

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Re: Steadying a Dog On Wild Birds

Post by IDHunter » Mon Dec 28, 2020 8:38 pm

RyanDoolittle wrote:
Mon Dec 28, 2020 5:49 pm
I think a financial investment in yourself would do you a ton of good at this point. Find a method that you like and use it. I would recommend Hunsmith or Perfection Series. Then buy their training DVDs and books, watch/read them, then do it again, then do it again, and then for good measures to it again. Enroll yourself into as many of the training seminars you can afford and attend.

In the mean time take a step away from training and worrying about what your dog is or isnt doing. Get it into an area people do not hunt that holds birds and run the dog. Keep your mouth shut other than to keep the dog at 10 and 2. Shoot birds the dog points. Otherwise enjoy your time in the hills. Worry about training once hunting season is over. You cant train a dog and hunt at the same time. You dont have the timing, consistency, and concentration needed to do both. So you end up with a half trained dog and a hunting trip you dont enjoy. Either stop hunting and train or hunt and stop training.
Ryan,
please correct me if I'm wrong, but I didn't think that training regimens really cover getting your dog to start pointing, do they? While I haven't stuck to one method in particular, I've read several books (most of them recommended by people on here), and have watched a healthy number of the perfection tutorial videos. I've seen a lot of info about getting a dog steady when they already are pointing, but it sounds like the general consensus in the material I've seen is that the dog should be pointing on it's own, and then you overlay training to further enhance the point and work on steadiness. Again, if I'm wrong about that let me know. I certainly plan on attending as many training days and seminars as I can this spring and summer as well, as it's clear that I have a lot to learn about this process.

Thanks for the advice on not trying to train and hunt at the same time. I'll stick to hunting I guess since there is only a month left to do it, and then we have 9+months to train. We are hunting lightly pressured areas now, and luckily they are full of birds this time of year and we are getting several encounters per hunt on wild chukar and huns. I'm not hacking the dog in the field at all. Today we did a pretty good walk (5 miles for me, 16 for him), and I honestly bet I said less than 10 words to him in that whole time, and most of those were just "good dog" when he circled back to check in. I'd love to be shooting the birds the dog points, but like I said he just isn't pointing at all. It sounds like your advice is along the lines of just keep giving him exposure and wait for it to click. Unless someone can provide a good argument for doing something else I suppose that's what I'll be doing.
Thanks again.

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Re: Steadying a Dog On Wild Birds

Post by IDHunter » Mon Dec 28, 2020 8:50 pm

lahunter562 wrote:
Mon Dec 28, 2020 5:42 pm
You have a great dog chasing birds at that age. I have seen other dogs that are not as near in prey drive what you have on that young dog. You have to understand that your dog is pretty young and sooner than later those chukar are going to teach your dog to be more careful when " the light comes on on his/her head." Usually when dogs turn about two years in age and mature enough. Other than that you are going to pull your hair until you go bald and start losing your patience. Let your dog get as much experience during this hunting season and work on whoa breaking your dog in the offseason with pigeons. I went through the same with my female GSP who has prey drive of the roof. Patience, patience, and more patience.
You're spot on about pulling your hair out. Man is it frustrating to watch covey after covey get busted out and think about how great of setup it was for a point and shoot opportunity. Would be a lot easier to stomach if it seemed like I could identify small improvements that he is making every so often, but unfortunately I don't think I can say I've noticed much improvement at all in the last month or so, just the same frustrating behavior. I know guys say that the first hunting season should be the most fun... I hope like heck they are wrong. It's gotta be more fun watching a mature dog correctly work birds than watching a young dog run around with his tail on fire busting every bird on the mountain. Maybe not...

We approach each trip with optimism and a good attitude, thinking that today might be the day that we turn the proverbial corner, but normally after a few hours and several miles it becomes clear that it will be another day in the future still. Oh well, we'll keep at it. If it doesn't happen this season it won't be for a lack of trying.

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Re: Steadying a Dog On Wild Birds

Post by mask » Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:45 pm

Perhaps back to the check cord and steady the dog. It sounds like he has chased plenty of birds and bumped more than enough. You might try carded pigeons or chukar and get him pointing reliably and start taking the chase out. You may be on the way to having a great flusher and not much of a pointer. i know this may feel like starting over but it may very well behoove you to do so. Training with Mo would be a good place to start. I live a few miles south of Marsing and will try to help if help is what you are looking for. PM if you like.

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Re: Steadying a Dog On Wild Birds

Post by IDHunter » Tue Dec 29, 2020 5:31 pm

mask wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:45 pm
Perhaps back to the check cord and steady the dog. It sounds like he has chased plenty of birds and bumped more than enough. You might try carded pigeons or chukar and get him pointing reliably and start taking the chase out. You may be on the way to having a great flusher and not much of a pointer. i know this may feel like starting over but it may very well behoove you to do so. Training with Mo would be a good place to start. I live a few miles south of Marsing and will try to help if help is what you are looking for. PM if you like.
Oh boy, I can't tell you how disappointed I'd be if he ends up a great flusher and not much of a pointer.

I may hit you up for some assistance after hunting season wraps up. Thanks for the offer.

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Re: Steadying a Dog On Wild Birds

Post by slistoe » Tue Dec 29, 2020 8:22 pm

IDHunter wrote:
Mon Dec 28, 2020 3:40 pm
Going to revive this post a bit as there is some good info in it, but I have been seeing a change in my pup that warrants a further question here.

I'm not really worried about steadiness at this point, I need help at a step even before the steadiness... because my 11 month old GWP seems to have made a regression to where he is not pointing frequently any more. I'm honestly not sure how this happened, although for full transparency there have been a few unfortunate incidents in the field that likely contributed to it. Both such incidents involve him catching a bird that someone else had wounded and not recovered. He was out in front of me hunting, and before I could understand what was happening and try to stop it, he had located and caught a bird. That's really the only thing I can think of that would have caused this setback.

Further detail: He has never been (to this point) a "point crazy" dog. He has pointed birds before, rather staunchly actually, but he has never been the dog that points early or false points old scent. He has pointed a TON of field mice nests and things like that as well, as unfortunately one of our prime training grounds is inundated with them. He has immense prey drive so I don't think that's a problem, and he loves chasing birds after they flush. I've pretty much let that go so far, as everything I've read indicates that they should learn they can't catch birds and then won't chase any more. But he doesn't seem to have learned that yet, at least not to the point of completely stopping his chasing... and we are talking about dozens and dozens of birds that he has been allowed to chase. He seems to have a good nose, because he's consistently finding birds, but instead of pointing them he works right into them and flushes them up without so much as stopping to point even briefly. I don't think he's missing or blinking birds, as it's extremely rare for him to work through an area without finding a bird and then to have one flush up as I walk through.

I've had some people tell me to keep him on wild birds, specifically chukar and huns, and just work on stopping his chase. However, that would involve e-collar, and although he is collar conditioned I'm also worried about making him a blinker if I start zapping him too much around birds. I've considered taking a step back and working him on launchers, using pigeons, pheasants, and chukar. Another option I'm considering if hunting him on a 30-50 ft check cord so I can try to control him a bit when we get into birds. I doubt that's the answer, but it's crossed my mind. Also considering just letting him continue doing this and see if one day it clicks for him through continuous exposure, but I gotta be honest my frustration is starting to set in while we're in the field. Driving 60-90 minutes each way, and walking my butt off through chukar country just to watch him flush covey after covey and not seem to be learning anything is getting old fast. I feel like an 11 month old dog that has been in the field consistently since day 1 and has been on birds a ton should not be having issues of not even pointing.

Any input would be appreciated, especially if you've dealt with this yourself and have seen a positive way to fix it. Again, my only goal at this point is to get him pointing consistently.
I put this on the other forum you posted in, but will copy it here as well.
He is 11 mos. old in his first hunting season. He can do no wrong. He is learning to love being out in the field. He is fuelling his passion for birds. He is honing the connection between his nose and the quarry. He is learning how and where to find birds. A dog that will point, but doesn't know how to HUNT is not worth much as a hunting dog. Let the dog learn to HUNT, and to develop an intense love of it. Then you have all the spring and summer to work on teaching the dog your "rules" for the interaction between dog and bird. This year is not about you, it is not about the bag, it is about the pup and his learning the basics of what will be his job for many years to come.

Keep taking the dog out to hunt - you are investing in your future.

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Re: Steadying a Dog On Wild Birds

Post by IDHunter » Tue Dec 29, 2020 8:56 pm

slistoe,

I hear ya, and I'm trying to keep that in mind every time we go out and have these experiences. Probably getting into my own head a bit too much on this. Thanks

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Re: Steadying a Dog On Wild Birds

Post by cjhills » Wed Dec 30, 2020 7:27 am

IDHunter
There are dogs that in spite of how hard we try as breeders, just do not have a lot of point. Some dogs just like to chase. Dogs that chase car can't do much with one if they catch it. Some will spend there whole life trying. Usually they eventually get ran over.
The problem with the "chase until they learn they can't catch" theory is some dogs chase because they like to chase. They could care less about catching
anything.
This dog is quite young and his natural talent may come out. Chances are he will have to be stopped when he gets a little older. When you start training You will need to train a good solid absolute whoa. IMO check cords are useless in this case, since he will be to far away. Get him to where you can stop him with the collar, either on the neck or waist. When he flushes a bird let him chase a few feet, whoa him and do what it takes to stop him. He needs to learn he must stop. You want him to know it was you that stopped him not the bird. Walk to him and send him in a different direction. You can also use launchers and flush the bird before he gets the scent but where he will see it, also throw a few pigeons. he needs to learn a bird in the air means stop. The biggest thing is that he must learn to stop on scent and flush. No matter what it takes..........Cj

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Re: Steadying a Dog On Wild Birds

Post by slistoe » Wed Dec 30, 2020 10:31 am

cjhills wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 7:27 am
IDHunter
There are dogs that in spite of how hard we try as breeders, just do not have a lot of point. Some dogs just like to chase. Dogs that chase car can't do much with one if they catch it. Some will spend there whole life trying. Usually they eventually get ran over.
The problem with the "chase until they learn they can't catch" theory is some dogs chase because they like to chase. They could care less about catching
anything.
This dog is quite young and his natural talent may come out. Chances are he will have to be stopped when he gets a little older. When you start training You will need to train a good solid absolute whoa.

Agree 100% up to this point.
cjhills wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 7:27 am
IMO check cords are useless in this case, since he will be to far away. Get him to where you can stop him with the collar, either on the neck or waist. When he flushes a bird let him chase a few feet, whoa him and do what it takes to stop him. He needs to learn he must stop. You want him to know it was you that stopped him not the bird. Walk to him and send him in a different direction. You can also use launchers and flush the bird before he gets the scent but where he will see it, also throw a few pigeons. he needs to learn a bird in the air means stop. The biggest thing is that he must learn to stop on scent and flush. No matter what it takes..........Cj
And disagree 100% at this. Check cords are invaluable and birds taking to wing mean whoa. I mean the dog needs to absolutely, unequivocably, deep down in his heart believe that birds to wing mean whoa. That is how you take the chase out of the dog. If deep down in his heart the dog wants to chase but sees you as the barrier - the reason why he must whoa, you will forever be fighting to keep the dog honest.

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Re: Steadying a Dog On Wild Birds

Post by birddogger2 » Wed Dec 30, 2020 11:08 am

IDhunter-

I also agree that a checkcord can be an invaluable aid in taking the chase out of a dog. A checkcord with a prong or JASA type pinch collar can speed that learning curve dramatically. At least I have found it to be so.

If you put a bird in a launcher and bring the dog in until it scents and points the bird and then tie off the end of the checkcord to a tree or sturdy fencepost...the dog WILL NOT CHASE...not very far anyway. When it gets to the end of the checkcord and goes upside down, that is an "AHA" moment for even the most determined chaser. If you then go to the dog, physically pick it up, bring it back to about where it pointed originally and then stand it up, stroke it up, style it up and then walk out front and toss a bird...the dog might just figure out that standing there is the best option. Like I said... an "AHA"moment.

There are many different ways to get from here to there. A lot of what you choose to do depends on what you are familiar with, what you are comfortable with and what tools you have available. A lot also depends on the individual dog, both in what it needs and what it can handle in terms of correction. Your dog...your call.

RayG

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Re: Steadying a Dog On Wild Birds

Post by weimdogman » Wed Dec 30, 2020 12:46 pm

birddogger2 wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 11:08 am
IDhunter-

I also agree that a checkcord can be an invaluable aid in taking the chase out of a dog. A checkcord with a prong or JASA type pinch collar can speed that learning curve dramatically. At least I have found it to be so.

If you put a bird in a launcher and bring the dog in until it scents and points the bird and then tie off the end of the checkcord to a tree or sturdy fencepost...the dog WILL NOT CHASE...not very far anyway. When it gets to the end of the checkcord and goes upside down, that is an "AHA" moment for even the most determined chaser. If you then go to the dog, physically pick it up, bring it back to about where it pointed originally and then stand it up, stroke it up, style it up and then walk out front and toss a bird...the dog might just figure out that standing there is the best option. Like I said... an "AHA"moment.

There are many different ways to get from here to there. A lot of what you choose to do depends on what you are familiar with, what you are comfortable with and what tools you have available. A lot also depends on the individual dog, both in what it needs and what it can handle in terms of correction. Your dog...your call.

RayG
Your last paragraph is so spot on. All I can add is - do a honest evaluation of the results of your methods. If they are not working , is the problem you?

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Re: Steadying a Dog On Wild Birds

Post by IDHunter » Wed Dec 30, 2020 7:34 pm

Thanks all. This is my first pointer so I'm about as new as possible when it comes to this. I will absolutely be enlisting the help of more seasoned trainers this spring, at a minimum for consultation and assistance, but possibly up to and including having them keep him for a period of time and working on this every day until something clicks or it's determined that it won't. I really wouldn't mind paying a trainer $1k to spend a month getting him over this hump, so I'm guessing that's what will end up happening. I will try what I can first and we'll see how it goes. Definitely taking notes from several of the suggestions made here, so thanks for those.

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Re: Steadying a Dog On Wild Birds

Post by IDHunter » Wed Dec 30, 2020 7:52 pm

cjhills wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 7:27 am
IDHunter
There are dogs that in spite of how hard we try as breeders, just do not have a lot of point. Some dogs just like to chase. Dogs that chase car can't do much with one if they catch it. Some will spend there whole life trying. Usually they eventually get ran over.
The problem with the "chase until they learn they can't catch" theory is some dogs chase because they like to chase. They could care less about catching
anything.
This sounds all too familiar, as he does seem to genuinely enjoy chasing.

[/quote] You want him to know it was you that stopped him not the bird.
[/quote]

Ha, this is why training can be so confusing. I've had other people tell me exactly the opposite of this, that I want him to think that it is the bird who is zapping him when chasing. No clue which is right or wrong, but had to laugh a bit at this.

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Re: Steadying a Dog On Wild Birds

Post by birddogger2 » Thu Jan 07, 2021 9:29 am

IDHunter wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 7:52 pm
cjhills wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 7:27 am
IDHunter
There are dogs that in spite of how hard we try as breeders, just do not have a lot of point. Some dogs just like to chase. Dogs that chase car can't do much with one if they catch it. Some will spend there whole life trying. Usually they eventually get ran over.
The problem with the "chase until they learn they can't catch" theory is some dogs chase because they like to chase. They could care less about catching
anything.
This sounds all too familiar, as he does seem to genuinely enjoy chasing.
You want him to know it was you that stopped him not the bird.
[/quote]

Ha, this is why training can be so confusing. I've had other people tell me exactly the opposite of this, that I want him to think that it is the bird who is zapping him when chasing. No clue which is right or wrong, but had to laugh a bit at this.
[/quote]

IDHunter -

There are a lot of folks who have a lot of different opinions on things. Here is my 2 cents, FWIW.

Training a bird dog is a process and the steps you take must depend on the steps you have taken before if you are going to be successful and not confuse the dog. If your training process is all over the place, you ARE going to confuse the dog and you probably ARE NOT going to be particularly successful, at least in the short run.

It is NOT rocket science, but rather a stepwise process, built on a firm foundation of learned behaviors. Done correctly, the steps are little ones that are well built and solid, so that what gets put on top of them has a firm foundation...in the dog's mind. What matters is what the dog understands.

As far as using an e-collar on a dog around birds is concerned, it all depends on how the dog was conditioned in the yard and how it was introduced to birds in the field. I personally have ZERO issues with using an e-collar on a dog around birds. That is because the dog has been conditioned previously.

For example, consider chasing.
I have no problem hitting a dog with e-collar stim, on the neck for chasing a bird...and the dog has no problem accepting the correction... BECAUSE I have installed the whoa command as an OBEDIENCE command, from the time the dog was four or five months old in the yard. i start with a pigging string, on the neck, overlay and progress to either a pinch or prong collar and then overlay and progress to an e-collar on the neck....all in the yard. When I command whoa, the dog understands that it means stop and grow roots...right NOW...or it is going to get corrected. Period.

When the dog goes to the field, the command and process is reinforced. Whoa means stop and grow roots until released. Now when the dog encounters a bird...its natural tendency is to point...at least at first. If you use that natural tendency to point and immediately overlay the whoa command it already knows...the dog puts it together and the scent of the bird becomes a screaming WHOA to the dog...if the trainer does their job correctly. I introduce birds in launchers with the dog on a check cord, so I have TOTAL control of the situation. If the dog tries to chase...it gets stopped. Period. Every time. The dog does not get off the checkcord until it is solid on its points. Period. It MUST understand that it MUST stop and stand through the flight of the bird before I proceed.

If you have done it this way, and the dog breaks and chases...it absolutely deserves a correction, via e-collar for chasing, because it has disobeyed an obedience command. It actually will EXPECT a correction. Mine do...and they get it.

Now...if you have not done the work to install the whoa command as an obedience command that MUST be obeyed...instantly, under any circumstance... what happens is less predictable and can really mess up a dog.

How you train early dictates how you proceed later. If you have not installed the basics and built a firm foundation, you have a house of cards that MIGHT stand, but might fall down, depending on ho the dog is wired.

If you train your dog on wild birds, some parts of your training process will have to differ from mine which is absolutely fine, as long as the dog ends up understanding what it is supposed to do. That is your job as their trainer.

RayG

Thirdy8special
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Re: Steadying a Dog On Wild Birds

Post by Thirdy8special » Thu Mar 04, 2021 11:38 pm

Whats the difference between wild birds and a bird in a remote release ...nothing. You definitely don't need to jump to wild birds before being steady to a bird in a release. That's what a remote release is for: to be in control of when bird flushes(act like a wild bird), and to be able to know where the bird is so you can control the dog to have a training experience and better outcome.
Forget about wildbirds for a year.
Texas JAC Lewellins(FB)

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Tim Tufts
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Re: Steadying a Dog On Wild Birds

Post by Tim Tufts » Fri Mar 05, 2021 7:10 am

birddogger2 wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 9:29 am
IDHunter wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 7:52 pm
cjhills wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 7:27 am
IDHunter
There are dogs that in spite of how hard we try as breeders, just do not have a lot of point. Some dogs just like to chase. Dogs that chase car can't do much with one if they catch it. Some will spend there whole life trying. Usually they eventually get ran over.
The problem with the "chase until they learn they can't catch" theory is some dogs chase because they like to chase. They could care less about catching
anything.
This sounds all too familiar, as he does seem to genuinely enjoy chasing.
You want him to know it was you that stopped him not the bird.
Ha, this is why training can be so confusing. I've had other people tell me exactly the opposite of this, that I want him to think that it is the bird who is zapping him when chasing. No clue which is right or wrong, but had to laugh a bit at this.
[/quote]

IDHunter -

There are a lot of folks who have a lot of different opinions on things. Here is my 2 cents, FWIW.

Training a bird dog is a process and the steps you take must depend on the steps you have taken before if you are going to be successful and not confuse the dog. If your training process is all over the place, you ARE going to confuse the dog and you probably ARE NOT going to be particularly successful, at least in the short run.

It is NOT rocket science, but rather a stepwise process, built on a firm foundation of learned behaviors. Done correctly, the steps are little ones that are well built and solid, so that what gets put on top of them has a firm foundation...in the dog's mind. What matters is what the dog understands.

As far as using an e-collar on a dog around birds is concerned, it all depends on how the dog was conditioned in the yard and how it was introduced to birds in the field. I personally have ZERO issues with using an e-collar on a dog around birds. That is because the dog has been conditioned previously.

For example, consider chasing.
I have no problem hitting a dog with e-collar stim, on the neck for chasing a bird...and the dog has no problem accepting the correction... BECAUSE I have installed the whoa command as an OBEDIENCE command, from the time the dog was four or five months old in the yard. i start with a pigging string, on the neck, overlay and progress to either a pinch or prong collar and then overlay and progress to an e-collar on the neck....all in the yard. When I command whoa, the dog understands that it means stop and grow roots...right NOW...or it is going to get corrected. Period.

When the dog goes to the field, the command and process is reinforced. Whoa means stop and grow roots until released. Now when the dog encounters a bird...its natural tendency is to point...at least at first. If you use that natural tendency to point and immediately overlay the whoa command it already knows...the dog puts it together and the scent of the bird becomes a screaming WHOA to the dog...if the trainer does their job correctly. I introduce birds in launchers with the dog on a check cord, so I have TOTAL control of the situation. If the dog tries to chase...it gets stopped. Period. Every time. The dog does not get off the checkcord until it is solid on its points. Period. It MUST understand that it MUST stop and stand through the flight of the bird before I proceed.

If you have done it this way, and the dog breaks and chases...it absolutely deserves a correction, via e-collar for chasing, because it has disobeyed an obedience command. It actually will EXPECT a correction. Mine do...and they get it.

Now...if you have not done the work to install the whoa command as an obedience command that MUST be obeyed...instantly, under any circumstance... what happens is less predictable and can really mess up a dog.

How you train early dictates how you proceed later. If you have not installed the basics and built a firm foundation, you have a house of cards that MIGHT stand, but might fall down, depending on ho the dog is wired.

If you train your dog on wild birds, some parts of your training process will have to differ from mine which is absolutely fine, as long as the dog ends up understanding what it is supposed to do. That is your job as their trainer.

RayG
[/quote]

I agree absolutely Ray.
Short & sweet eh?? ;)

RyanDoolittle
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Re: Steadying a Dog On Wild Birds

Post by RyanDoolittle » Mon Mar 15, 2021 10:58 pm

Thirdy8special wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 11:38 pm
Whats the difference between wild birds and a bird in a remote release ...nothing. You definitely don't need to jump to wild birds before being steady to a bird in a release. That's what a remote release is for: to be in control of when bird flushes(act like a wild bird), and to be able to know where the bird is so you can control the dog to have a training experience and better outcome.
Forget about wildbirds for a year.
The human factor is the difference. Wild birds dog give a crop if you want to see your dog point. Pressure them and they fly. A launcher bird doesn't fly until you press the button and most people are not pressing the button until they see their dog point.

HUGE difference between wild birds and launcher birds.

birddogger2
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Re: Steadying a Dog On Wild Birds

Post by birddogger2 » Tue Mar 16, 2021 8:43 am

RyanDoolittle wrote:
Mon Mar 15, 2021 10:58 pm
Thirdy8special wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 11:38 pm
Whats the difference between wild birds and a bird in a remote release ...nothing. You definitely don't need to jump to wild birds before being steady to a bird in a release. That's what a remote release is for: to be in control of when bird flushes(act like a wild bird), and to be able to know where the bird is so you can control the dog to have a training experience and better outcome.
Forget about wildbirds for a year.
The human factor is the difference. Wild birds dog give a crop if you want to see your dog point. Pressure them and they fly. A launcher bird doesn't fly until you press the button and most people are not pressing the button until they see their dog point.

HUGE difference between wild birds and launcher birds.
Ryan -

You are absolutely correct about the timing thing being crucial. It is up to the person with their finger on the remote to get the timing correct.

If the trainer knows how to read their dog and knows when and where the dog SHOULD stop and stand its birds, the timing can be quite good.

In fact, if the trainer THINKS the dog should scent the bird and hits the release button BEFORE the dog stops... they are providing extremely powerful reinforcement to the dog, since the sight of a flushing bird should freeze the dog in its tracks.

That training technique... the stop to flush... is something that you really cannot control with wild birds, but which you can very easily accomplish with remote release traps. Once the dog knows that it MUST stop and stand at the sight of a flying bird... the handling of wild birds by that dog usually improves markedly.

Over the years I have seen many dogs that were trained on box birds transition successfully to wild birds and transition back and forth, as needed.

I have also seen some few dogs that were trained on wild birds from the start that were absolutely awesome on wild birds, but pretty useless on box birds, because they either did not respect them or consider them game, I guess.

If one is blessed with an abundance of wild birds, there is absolutely nothing better for a dog to learn on, if their trainer has the time, patience and shoeleather. There are things that wild birds can teach a dog that it cannot learn any other way.

Learning to Outmaneuver, outrun and trap a running pheasant between themselves and their hunter comes to mind as one of those skills that only wild birds can teach(and apparently only a very few dogs seem to be able to master). In 60 plus years of chasing dogs, I have seen about 4 dogs that could successfully reduce a running pheasant to a point and two of those were puppies of the first dog that I witnessed doing it. I was blessed to have the fourth dog, who figured it out on her own.

For most, including myself, wild birds are such a rare gift and such a valuable training commodity that I would NEVER even consider shooting them, or telling anyone their whereabouts. The only wild birds I personally have any access to these days, are woodcock during the migration.

RayG

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gonehuntin'
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Re: Steadying a Dog On Wild Birds

Post by gonehuntin' » Tue Mar 16, 2021 1:12 pm

I haven't read through this whole thread or previous ones but your trainer must have told you the pup was hit by a launcher in training. There aren't many left, but a few trainers still hold on to the old TriTronics Green Boxes. They were a magnetic launcher with hard top and sides. They had the distressing habit of either not opening when the button was pushed or giving a delay small enough to let a breaking dog get hit by one. When those honkers opened, they would flat cold cock a dog if they hit his nose.

Otherwise, most dog's, if properly introduced, love launchers. I work mine on them from ten weeks on launching puppy bumpers out of them while holding the pup, then turning them loose. That gets them use to what the launcher does, the noise, and the smell of them.

A lot of guys don't plant the birds correctly using them. For an older pup, I'd always walk to the field, walk 50 yards down wind, plant the launcher, walk 50 yards upwind, then walk to the next site. Mix it up and use multiple launchers at one site occasionally. There is no tool as effective at training pups and young dog's as a launcher. I really think DON F. on here is the master with them and a lot of the comments you see are taken from his posts.

You most certainly CAN correct a dog with the collar around birds, it's just how you do it. I never whoa a dog in to a bird, but I will whoa the dog if he breaks on the bird. That's when the collar is used. If he breaks, yell whoa, then immediately nick him. If he doesn't stop, let him go and put him back on the check cord. It all starts with the check cord. If he isn't 100% of the check cord, he shouldn't be corrected with the collar off the check cord.
LIFE WITHOUT BIRD DOGS AND FLY RODS REALLY ISN'T LIFE AT ALL.

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